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I said nothing opposed to that. We are not even capable of love (obedience) until we are accepted. That's my point.
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Yes, the most basic command of our faith could be stated as "Thou shalt Love". But love cannot be forced, either by God or by ourselves. We can't just make ourselves love, even as we know it's the right thing to do. It's a work of grace in us, and, as it blossoms, we obey. We don't love in order to obey, rather we obey because we love.
Sometimes we love that way.I don't see you saying anything different than the OP. To love God and neighbor IS obedience. Loving IS obeying.
Love and obedience are not the same thing. Your premise is flawed.I said nothing opposed to that. We are not even capable of love (obedience) until we are accepted. That's my point.
Yes, I didn't mean to sound argumentative-I agreed with your initial point but wanted to expand on it to clarify that we obey not merely out of gratitude or any other reason but because we, too, love. This is the basis of the New Covenant-and the prophecies it fulfills. I like a way Basil of Cesarea, a 2nd or 3rd century believer, from a little different perspective perhaps, summed it up:I said nothing opposed to that. We are not even capable of love (obedience) until we are accepted. That's my point.
How much "good" did the thief on the cross do? "doing" is nothing without faith, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without it and if you are not pleasing God how can anything you do be considered righteous?
Using your thinking one must do a certain amount of Good in order to be saved.... which means God didn't do enough good or wasn't righteous enough on the cross to save us.
No I'm not adding to the passage. Not at all.
Under the New Covenant what one needs to fear is dying without a Savior from sin. We fear Him only when we are not in communion with Him. However, since we have all of God's Word in the New Testament we know that when He seals us with the Holy Spirit, we are sealed in Him until the Day of Redemption. We work righteousness to see His will being done and to become more like our Savior (sanctificaiton).
In the Old Testament there was much more fear in that they did not have Jesus Christ yet or the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide them in truth. We have that.
THose who are not saved should fear the Lord because He is righteous and just. That is what I said.Here a few passages which speak of the fear of the Lord. I surely do not see we fear Him only when we are not in communion with Him.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:29
Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord,
Proverbs 2:5
Then you will understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.
Proverbs 3:7
Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and depart from evil.
Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Proverbs 10:27
The fear of the Lord prolongs days, but the years of the wicked will be shortened.
Proverbs 14:2
He who walks in his uprightness fears the Lord, but he who is perverse in his ways despises Him.
Proverbs 14:26
In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence, and His children will have a place of refuge.
Proverbs 14:27
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 15:16
Better is a little with the fear of the Lord, than great treasure with trouble.
Proverbs 15:33
The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom, And before honor is humility.
Proverbs 16:6
In mercy and truth atonement is provided for iniquity; and by the fear of the Lord one departs from evil.
Proverbs 19:23
The fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it will abide in satisfaction; he will not be visited with evil.
Proverbs 22:4
By humility and the fear of the Lord are riches and honor and life.
Also notice the fear of the Lord is a fountain of life and the fear of the Lord leads to life.
And the reason many do not depart from evil is because there is no fear of the Lord.
THose who are not saved should fear the Lord because He is righteous and just. That is what I said.
THose who are saved do not need to fear the Lord in the same sense that non-believer's do as we are Christ's own and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the Day of Redemption.
So what are you trying to say with all these verses that is different from what I said? These verses pertain mostly to non saved people.
It is important when reading the BIble to know the context of the chapter and verses as well as who is being talked to or about.
I'm not getting what your point is?
What is it you obey?Neither are quite right.
I am loved and accepted. I love, too, therefore I obey.
It has to do with changes wrought by God-by His love-in us. Love is the only authentic, non-hypocritical or non-self-serving motivation for obedience. Love is the state or disposition of justice in us, where our hearts are right, while obedience is the resulting outworking of that love, that justice in action.
Ah, you must be promoting obedience to the law to be saved or as proof that one is. Neither is correct. Salvation (righteousness) is by faith alone. I.E. my neighbor doesn't murder but that doesn't mean he/she lives by the law.So these passages aren't speaking to believers, right? Maybe you should read them carefully again.
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil and depart from it. Is this not speaking to believers?
How do believers receive wisdom if the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom?
It's not a what, it's a Who, to the best I can. I know that I'm obligated to love God with my whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and my neighbor as myself. It's a tall order; I'm a lot of work for Him, but He's up to it. To the extent that I succeed, with the help of grace, obedience is accomplished in me-ipso facto, so to speak.What is it you obey?
bugkiller
I said those who are saved do not need to fear the Lord like the unsaved do.So these passages aren't speaking to believers, right? Maybe you should read them carefully again.
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil and depart from it. Is this not speaking to believers?
How do believers receive wisdom if the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom?
This is right. The more we know God, the more we know Him as love, and the more we love Him. It changes our concept of God. There's no fear in love; it's cast out to the extent that it's perfect -1 John 4:18. Awe remains, and increases. Fear, of punishment, of anger, decreases. He loves man immensely, lavishly, beyond our ability to imagine.I said those who are saved do not need to fear the Lord like the unsaved do.
So what is the problem with that statement or do you just want to talk!
Love and obedience are not the same thing. Your premise is flawed.
Ah, you must be promoting obedience to the law to be saved or as proof that one is. Neither is correct. Salvation (righteousness) is by faith alone. I.E. my neighbor doesn't murder but that doesn't mean he/she lives by the law.
bugkiller
I said those who are saved do not need to fear the Lord like the unsaved do.
So what is the problem with that statement or do you just want to talk!
Love and obedience are not the same thing, which is your premise.To love God and neighbor is to be in full obedience to the entire law of God, according to Jesus. Are you called His words flawed?
Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Love and obedience are not the same thing, which is your premise.
In our relationship with God many times the two become intertwined in that they are both part of loving God and wanting His will to be done. That does not change the fact that these are two totally different things.
In the Bible you can do word searches. Look up all the times 'obedience' has been used and in which verses and you can do the same for the word 'love'. I think this would be a good exercise for you so you can see the vast differences in these words. We are all learning and growing.
May God bless you.
If this is your response than I wonder how close you are in your relationship with God, because fear becomes more of a reverance, not that we do not know that God controls our destiny, but in that we know we are secure in Him and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the Day of Redemption.Revelation 15:
3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:
“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy.
Acts 9:31
Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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