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I need to know!

Centexgal

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OK. I thought the basic idea of solipcism is that we may not exist at all, only what our mind perceives. Kind of like the Matrix ; ) But still I think that you are saying that everything is relative. If patterns are a construct of the mind then it is relative to the individual.
 
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Centexgal

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1 whirlwind, I appreciate your response but I am not so sure that angels are us and we are them. If we take into consideration the definitions that Gracchus provided, which are from the bible, then according to God's word angels are a separate order of beings.

I really want to share my story but I am concerned that if I do I may lose credibilty and I may get others who exaggerate or embelish a story. Or worse, copy my story or just lie. I am searching for a truth I may never find but I would like to try and keep it from becoming clouded with untruths. I would much rather have interesting philosophical discussions all day but I have to get to work. I will be back with my story.
 
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Tinker Grey

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But still I think that you are saying that everything is relative. If patterns are a construct of the mind then it is relative to the individual.

Of course you are welcome to think that. But you'd be wrong. :) There is objective reality. We come to an agreement on what that reality by comparing our perspectives and coming to consensus. Often times coming to consensus is trivial. "That car is red" might be such an example until someone asks "blood-red or fire-engine-red".

A work friend brought her kindergartner's rhythm worksheet with her to complain about the answer the teacher expected. We all agreed that the expected response was valid, but so was the child's answer. But, we all preferred the child's answer. The question was what comes next in the pattern and different people perceived the answer differently.

So yes, our perceptions are subjective. Patterns are subjective. But because of our common origins we can communicate and use that power to understand the world around us. The better we communicate, the better we understand objective reality. The more we understand how we communicate, the better we understand how good our perception of reality is.
 
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LordTimothytheWise

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My cousin had an experience that caused him to believe he saw angels. After quizzing him, I found that his position was fairly reasonable, but coming from me, it would be second hand, and its somewhat generic, although details are present. Perhaps its not what you are looking for, but I thought I would say so.
 
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Centexgal

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OK, so are you applying your theory consistently and throughout? Because if you are then the mind should perceive like things as at least alike. If patterns are something else outside the human mind, so to speak, and even though everyone's perception is different, shouldn't like things still show some sort of commoness? Therefore producing a pattern in the perceived. Any thing other would suggest that everything thing around us is just utter and complete chaos. Does that even make sense? It makes sense to me as I am trying to make sense of what you said!
 
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brinny

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No, but as someone who experiences hypnopompic hallucinations (i.e. waking up but still dreaming), I can certainly see how someone might think they saw one. I've seen things that some people might consider ghosts or demons, but I know they are a product of my own mind.

how do you know they're a product of your own mind?
 
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Tinker Grey

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Centexgal,

[aside]
It would be helpful if you use the quote facility so we know by more than context to whom you are responding.

You can use either the quote button on the bottom right corner of the individual's post, or you can use the quote tags by hand.

E.g., [quote=Centexgal]Stuff[/quote] produces
Centexgal said:

At minimum, you could put the person's name to whom you are responding at the top of your post.

[/aside]

OK, so are you applying your theory consistently and throughout?
I certainly hope so.

Because if you are then the mind should perceive like things as at least alike.
Exactly. This enables communication.

Some points: As far as we know, the mind is dependent on the body. That is, there is no evidence that the mind exists apart from the body. As such, given that by definition all humans have a common ancestor, we all have very similar brain structures and therefore similar perceptions and interpretations.

The question, for example, of whether we all see red the same way becomes trivial when we understand the physical constructs (rods and cones) that enable humans to see color at all. As I understand it, they are of various sizes and shapes that filter different wave-lengths of light (color). The mechanics of seeing color are the same for all humans. Subtracting anomalies such as red-green color blindness, we see color the same way. Now what one does with the information is another matter.

But, it is the basic commonality that allows us to communicate. It is the differences that cause us to fail to communicate -- and make life interesting. Indeed, it may be taht the differences in our perceptions that make communication useful. If we all saw something the same, there would be no need to gather a consensus. The process of gathering the consensus enhances our perception of reality.

If patterns are something else outside the human mind, so to speak, and even though everyone's perception is different, shouldn't like things still show some sort of commoness? Therefore producing a pattern in the perceived.
Sure. See above. Our common ancestry makes communication possible and perceptions similar enough to understand one another; but we are not so similar as to make communication a waste of time.

Any thing other would suggest that everything thing around us is just utter and complete chaos. Does that even make sense? It makes sense to me as I am trying to make sense of what you said!

Well, it wouldn't make everything chaos ... it would just make it impossible for humans to wend their way thru the world. The species would cease to exist.

But again the fact that we sometimes see things differently doesn't mean that one person is necessarily right and the other is necessarily wrong.

Back to rhythm: Suppose we have this pattern on paper: stomp, clap, stomp, stomp. Suppose you are asked to extend the patern. It would be reasonable to write down the whole pattern as s-c-s-s-c-s (two sets of s-c-s). It would also be reasonable to write s-c-s-s-c (that is, a lot of tend to automatically hear the two sequential stomps in the original sequence as 1/8 notes [twice as fast as the original notes] -- try it.

The first answer might arguably be better since the second assumes information not provided, but so many of us can't help hearing that second pattern.

The question might be then, does the pattern exist? To answer yes is to suggest there is only one right answer to the question. To answer no is to admit that the pattern exists in the mind.
 
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LordTimothytheWise

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Actually, please do go into detail if you don't mind. Second hand information is just fine considering this is all based on self report, which is inherently flawed anyway!
Alright then, feel free to ask questions that you take particular interest in. I can confer with him later, about anything I don't know and get back to you.

Basically what happened, is my cousin was riding on a lake up near my grandmothers cottage in the upper part of southern Michigan on a snowmobile. He got off his snowmobile, in order to look at something, and fell through the ice. He tried, but was unable to find the hole where he fell through. Then he says that a hand grabbed him, and pulled him through the ice. That would be that the ice did not break nor did he go through the hole he previously made when he fell through. When he came out, he was a ways away from the hole that he fell in at. He saw the people who pulled him out, he said they looked like 2 snowmobilers, but there had been no noise or indication that they had been approaching previous to him falling through the ice. They didn't say anything, but he turned around, and they had vanished without making any noise, and with no snowmobile tracks or footprints besides his own present in the snow.

That is how I heard it from him. I can check back with him if you are looking for anything in particular about their appearance, or whatnot.
 
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1whirlwind

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1 whirlwind, I appreciate your response but I am not so sure that angels are us and we are them. If we take into consideration the definitions that Gracchus provided, which are from the bible, then according to God's word angels are a separate order of beings.

I really want to share my story but I am concerned that if I do I may lose credibilty and I may get others who exaggerate or embelish a story. Or worse, copy my story or just lie. I am searching for a truth I may never find but I would like to try and keep it from becoming clouded with untruths. I would much rather have interesting philosophical discussions all day but I have to get to work. I will be back with my story.


It is God's Word that tells us we are the same entites.

I hope you will share your story. I look forward to reading it.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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how do you know they're a product of your own mind?

Because they are usually waking dreams. I'll be dreaming something, wake up (including getting up out of bed), but I'll still be seeing things from the dream. This is a hypnopompic hallucination.

The other reason is that these hallucinations don't leave behind any sort of physical evidence.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Hi Pete, I am aware of the strange sleep state you mention. Like a lucid dream accompanied by temporary paralysis, sometimes visions. I thought it was called a fugue state but I think hypnopompic is more accurate. However, 'pompic' refers to the spritual.
I have experienced sleep paralysis only a couple of times in my life. I have not in many years though.

Actually, in my case it's not sleep paralysis. More like sleep walking. I'll usually wake up from a dream, but I'll still be dreaming it. I'll even get up out of bed and turn on the lights, and still be seeing things in the dream.

It's really freaky at times. One time, in an attempt to escape from things in my dream, I punched through the screen on my window.
 
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LordTimothytheWise

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Because they are usually waking dreams. I'll be dreaming something, wake up (including getting up out of bed), but I'll still be seeing things from the dream. This is a hypnopompic hallucination.

The other reason is that these hallucinations don't leave behind any sort of physical evidence.
Prove that you're not dreaming right now! :ebil:
 
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brinny

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Because they are usually waking dreams. I'll be dreaming something, wake up (including getting up out of bed), but I'll still be seeing things from the dream. This is a hypnopompic hallucination.

The other reason is that these hallucinations don't leave behind any sort of physical evidence.

Do you believe everything in all possible dimensions, leave physical evidence? Is it possible that there is something sooo miniscule or beyond our senses, that it is not possible to even see physical evidence of it? Is it possible that something can exist without physical evidence?
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Is it possible that there is something sooo miniscule or beyond our senses, that it is not possible to even see physical evidence of it?

If something is completely beyond our senses that we cannot see physical evidence of it, then it might as well not exist.

Look, what I have experienced are hallucinations. These sorts of things are well documented--in fact that's how I found out what they are to begin with. There's nothing mysterious or mystical about them. No ghosts, aliens, or monsters from the Nth dimension. Just the ol' human brain doing funky things at night. :p
 
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1whirlwind

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I have had many years to think about this. For a long time I thought he was a demon. And to be clear, he didn't dislike me so much as he just didn't want to be bothered with me, at all, and was irritated that I saw him. I still cannot believe how much emotion and activity were packed into that brief moment. I have never read or heard of a sighting like this. I don't have any ghost stories or unexplained events and I have not seen that creature since. I have researched every possibility that I can imagine. It has remained as clear to me now as it was then. It does feel pretty good to write this up and share it though.


Thank you for telling the story. The supernatural is just that....super-natural. I don't know if you were visited by an angel or if it was a ghost, even though you don't believe in them.

Although nothing of that magnitude has happened to me I do know what you mean by "how much emotion was packed into that brief moment," from the "brief moment" that I was kept from falling down the stairs. Incredible emotion!

I have no idea what the green color was? I'm anxious to see if others have had similar experiences. I must say...you were a brave girl to keep sleeping in the room.
 
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