I need to know!

[Centexgal]

It has taken a very long time and much thought to come to the decision to ask this question publicly. Actually, it took many years before I could even dicuss it with loved ones in private. I am educated, logical, Christian, and I believe that science belongs to God and proves his existence.

I do not engage in hysterics, I do not believe in ghosts and I find that God's pattern is reflected repeatedly and throughout his universe.

I would like to know if anyone thinks they have seen an angel and I would like to know what they saw in detail. No offense, but if your angel was a cloud formation I am not interested. For this particular inquiry I also have no interest in visions of female "angels" in white robes with wings and golden curly hair. If your creature looks like something from a fairytale or greeting card, please skip my post. Thanks!

 

[Tinker Grey]

I think you should ask a mod to move this to one of the Christian-Only sub-forums.

Here you are going to be asked questions such as: What do you mean by pattern? What do you mean by prove? How does science prove God exists? Etc.

It is very improbable that your question will be addressed. If you move the thread to a CO sub-forum, surely there are angel-enthusiasts that would happily discuss this.

 

[juvenissun]

It has taken a very long time and much thought to come to the decision to ask this question publicly. Actually, it took many years before I could even dicuss it with loved ones in private. I am educated, logical, Christian, and I believe that science belongs to God and proves his existence.

I do not engage in hysterics, I do not believe in ghosts and I find that God's pattern is reflected repeatedly and throughout his universe.

I would like to know if anyone thinks they have seen an angel and I would like to know what they saw in detail. No offense, but if your angel was a cloud formation I am not interested. For this particular inquiry I also have no interest in visions of female "angels" in white robes with wings and golden curly hair. If your creature looks like something from a fairytale or greeting card, please skip my post. Thanks!

First, welcome.

You said you do NOT believe in ghost, and you are asking people on real experience of seeing angel. Does it ever occur to you that angel and ghost are the same kind of being? In a secular world, people are more comfortable to say that they see ghost rather than seeing angel. There are relatively few angel stories. But there are certainly a lot of ghost stories. To me, if people believed that they saw ghost, I would take it as that they saw angel.

 

[Centexgal]

Hi Tinker and thanks for your response. Actually, I would love to address those questions if they would not require a series of books to explain. My belief system took years to develop and is still doing so. But I think I will take your advice and move this to another forum as well.

Thanks for the welcome, juvenissun. I absolutely do believe that angels are a very specific type of being. I do not believe in ghosts so that piont is irrelevant for me. Please understand, I am self serving in this endeavor and I'm not trying to engage in debate on this particular topic.

The person, or people, with the experience that I am interested in will either respond accordingly or they will not. And yes, I am aware of the frequency of both ghost and angel stories. Thanks!

 

[Centexgal]

Hi Tinker and thanks for your response. Actually, I would love to address those questions if they would not require a series of books to explain. My belief system took years to develop and is still doing so. But I think I will take your advice and move this to another forum as well.

Thanks for the welcome, juvenissun. I absolutely do believe that angels are a very specific type of being. I do not believe in ghosts so that piont is irrelevant for me. Please understand, I am self serving in this endeavor and I'm not trying to engage in debate on this particular topic.

The person, or people, with the experience that I am interested in will either respond accordingly or they will not. And yes, I am aware of the frequency of both ghost and angel stories. Thanks!

 

[DoubtingJesus]

First, welcome.

Does it ever occur to you that angel and ghost are the same kind of being? In a secular world, people are more comfortable to say that they see ghost rather than seeing angel.

I love hearing angel stories around the campfire!

 

[dewaddict84]

I find that God's pattern is reflected repeatedly

Yeah, so did Kepler. He thought he found god's pattern in the orbits of the planets. He was off a bit and he was simply wrong. His desire for there to be neat patterns negatively influenced his findings.

I think it's fine if you view science as some sort of extension of god. But if it ever contradicts with one of your views of god, then please realize your view was flawed and can now be more in line with your faith.

 

[Centexgal]

I guess I will address this statement because it is so interesting! I am still looking for an angel incident though. When I was much younger and much more eager to argue God's existence, there was always the discussion about patterns, design and the relation to DNA, mtDNA and bone structure of all animals, etc. In other words, beings with the same designer (creator) will be similar assuming that the creator has a pattern. In my humble opinion, I have always felt that from a microscopic or quantum level, out to the ends of the universe, there is a pattern throughout. I love this quote:

“Infinities and indivisibles transcend our finite understanding, the former on account of their magnitude, the latter because of their smallness; Imagine what they are when combined.” ~ Galileo Galilei

Galileo does not specifically say "pattern" but I believe it is implied in this quote.

 

[Tinker Grey]

If however we evolved to see patterns as a survival technique and if we see patterns where they aren't because that is a better mistake than failing to see a pattern*, then perhaps our impulse to interpret the universe as having an overarching pattern should be considered suspect.

*E.g., it is better to think a pile of rocks is a bear, then to think a bear is a pile of rocks.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

I would like to know if anyone thinks they have seen an angel and I would like to know what they saw in detail.

No, but as someone who experiences hypnopompic hallucinations (i.e. waking up but still dreaming), I can certainly see how someone might think they saw one. I've seen things that some people might consider ghosts or demons, but I know they are a product of my own mind.

 

[Centexgal]

I don't view science as "some sort of extension of God." I believe that science is God's method, his means to an end, or means to continue. The processes of earth and of the entire universe are God's processes.

 

[Centexgal]

?

 

[Centexgal]

?

 

[Centexgal]

Hi Pete, I am aware of the strange sleep state you mention. Like a lucid dream accompanied by temporary paralysis, sometimes visions. I thought it was called a fugue state but I think hypnopompic is more accurate. However, 'pompic' refers to the spritual.
I have experienced sleep paralysis only a couple of times in my life. I have not in many years though.
I have not detailed anything about my experience or that I even had an experience. Why do you think it is related to sleep? Do you assume I was sleeping?
I searched through one of the angel enthusiast forums and found exactly what I said I was not interested in; clouds, white robes, females, someone in need of rescue or someone rescuing. I am not saying that those accounts are true or false. But I will say they are very generic. I will go ahead and state that I did have an unexplained (thus far!) experience. It was absolutely nothing like anything I have read or heard before. I will also state that there could be a logical explanation, that is why I am here. And that is why I chose a science based forum in which to start my inquiry.
As for the hynopompic state, my symtoms do not mach the characteristics of that phenomenon. Bottom line, I am not that special and there has to be someone out there who has a similar story.

 

[Centexgal]

So, you are basically saying that I need this false paradigm to feel at ease with the universe? I am reminded of Pascal's wager here. What do you have to say about patterns that do exist and can be clearly seen?

 

[Tinker Grey]

What does it mean for a pattern to exist?

A pattern, I think, is an idea of relatedness. Such a thing is not intrinsic to an object but rather a statement about the object that a thinking mind decides is true.

Finding patterns in the clouds is a classic example. A child lying in the grass might see a bunny in the clouds. An adult might be induced to agree that a bunny can be seen. Does the pattern exist? Where does it exist? In the cloud or in the perceiver's mind?

Pattern recognition is fundamental humans and their survival. The ability to draw conclusions based on similarities between objects and ultimately ideas themselve is extraordinarily useful for survival.

Is there a pattern in the way objects orbit a much larger object (moons and planet, planets and stars, etc.)? Or is there only a physical property that describes (fairly accurately) how such objects move, and the pattern is only what we impose on what we see?

I think patterns are a construct of the mind.

I might add this is similar to the question "does love exist". Love is not an object or an energy or a thing in and of itself. It is a brain-state that describes relationships between clusters of neurons and manifests itself in various actions. It is not a thing -- it is a description.

 

[Centexgal]

I think we have a difference in fundamental views. It sounds like your beliefs are based on solipcism. I am more of a "cogito ergo sum" kind of person! Unfortunately, I need to focus on work right now but I will get back to this. Thanks for your input

 

[Tinker Grey]

I don't think solipsism means what you think it means. Here's a definition and a link

the philosophical theory that the self is all that you know to exist.

Oddly, your quote of Descartes is congruent with solipsism.

Perhaps the word you are looking for is empiricism.

the doctrine that knowledge derives from experience.

(Also not at odds with Descartes.)

 

[Gracchus]

I would like to know if anyone thinks they have seen an angel and I would like to know what they saw in detail. No offense, but if your angel was a cloud formation I am not interested. For this particular inquiry I also have no interest in visions of female "angels" in white robes with wings and golden curly hair. If your creature looks like something from a fairytale or greeting card, please skip my post. Thanks!

Just so we know what we are talking about, in the KJV "angel" is a translation of either:

mal'ak (Heb.)- deputy, messenger, ambassador
aggelos (Grk.)- messenger, envoy
'elohiym (Heb.)- God, goddess, judge, godlike one, works or special possesions of God
shin'an (Heb.)- repetitions, myriads
'abbiyr (Heb,)- bulls, strong ones, mighty, stouthearted, valiant


The last three are translated as "angel(')(s)(') only once.

In Hebrews chapter 13 verse 2, Christians are bidden to "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares," so perhaps angels can look like or possibly even be, human beings.

In Revelations, the author says "Write to the angel of the church at ...", and here "angel" probably means the literate person who would read to the congregation.

In Psalm 78, there is reference to "angels' food", which is to say "manna", "the corn of heaven", so apparently, the angels eat. (I can't help but wonder if they perform other ailimentary functions. )

 

[1whirlwind]

Just so we know what we are talking about, in the KJV "angel" is a translation of either:

mal'ak (Heb.)- deputy, messenger, ambassador
aggelos (Grk.)- messenger, envoy
'elohiym (Heb.)- God, goddess, judge, godlike one, works or special possesions of God
shin'an (Heb.)- repetitions, myriads
'abbiyr (Heb,)- bulls, strong ones, mighty, stouthearted, valiant


The last three are translated as "angel(')(s)(') only once.

In Hebrews chapter 13 verse 2, Christians are bidden to "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares," so perhaps angels can look like or possibly even be, human beings.

In Revelations, the author says "Write to the angel of the church at ...", and here "angel" probably means the literate person who would read to the congregation.

In Psalm 78, there is reference to "angels' food", which is to say "manna", "the corn of heaven", so apparently, the angels eat. (I can't help but wonder if they perform other ailimentary functions. )

Angels are us and we are them. They are in their spiritual body while our spiritual body is encased in our flesh body. As you pointed out...they are among us so unless they decided to do something angel like....like walking though a door as Christ did...we wouldn't know.

Although I have never knowingly seen one I have felt one.

My husband and I were looking at a new home under construction. We were going down a staircase, not nearly complete, and I stumbled. Before I could catch my breath a force enveloped me and....I was still on the step as if nothing had happened. It is impossible to describe the feeling. I was so shaken by that powerful force...not the almost fall, that I didn't even say anything to my husband. I just couldn't comprehend what had happened. It was a wonderful feeling.