I need some questions answered, on apostles and deacons.

[cookiebear]

I just had a chat with a pastor this afternoon. My husband and I just recently left the church we were attending for 5 months. There seems to be a dissagreement on a couple things. Back in November a vote was taken for a new deacon, and due to a lack of membership in the church (the church is over 70 years old but less than 50 members) a woman was voted in. Right away feeling very uneasy on this we went to the qualifications of deacons; 1 Timothy 3:8-13 which reads:

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedey of filthy lucre. Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree and great boldness in the faith with is in Christ Jesus.

We left the church because of the leadership including a woman as a deacon, when as we clearly read that a deacon is to be a man not a woman. The pastor said the woman he appointed and installed is well beyond repute. That is not the problem at all. He said he was shocked and surprised that we would leave the church because they voted in with his approval a woman. Ok has that scripture changed? Also he said that paul had installed a woman as an apostle. I had no idea Paul chose a woman as an apostle. If he did where is it in scripture?
Us leaving the church was a hard decision as churches are very hard to find in this area, most christian churches are of mormon influence in some way or another as we are in a predominatly mormon area.
Now looking for another church is not going to be easy, we need prayer and direction, we would really rather move from this area and get closer to family but that is beside the point of this thread. Anyone have good biblical scriptural backing on if the church was right in installing a woman, if we are wrong we would like to appologize but we belive we are right. what do others think on this. The church we left was an Assembly of God.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I just had a chat with a pastor this afternoon. My husband and I just recently left the church we were attending for 5 months. There seems to be a dissagreement on a couple things. Back in November a vote was taken for a new deacon, and due to a lack of membership in the church (the church is over 70 years old but less than 50 members) a woman was voted in. Right away feeling very uneasy on this we went to the qualifications of deacons; 1 Timothy 3:8-13 which reads:

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedey of filthy lucre. Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree and great boldness in the faith with is in Christ Jesus.

We left the church because of the leadership including a woman as a deacon, when as we clearly read that a deacon is to be a man not a woman. The pastor said the woman he appointed and installed is well beyond repute. That is not the problem at all. He said he was shocked and surprised that we would leave the church because they voted in with his approval a woman. Ok has that scripture changed? Also he said that paul had installed a woman as an apostle. I had no idea Paul chose a woman as an apostle. If he did where is it in scripture?
Us leaving the church was a hard decision as churches are very hard to find in this area, most christian churches are of mormon influence in some way or another as we are in a predominatly mormon area.
Now looking for another church is not going to be easy, we need prayer and direction, we would really rather move from this area and get closer to family but that is beside the point of this thread. Anyone have good biblical scriptural backing on if the church was right in installing a woman, if we are wrong we would like to appologize but we belive we are right. what do others think on this. The church we left was an Assembly of God.

There are confusions regarding the "Deacon" position. A "Deacon" to many churches is not a "teaching" position but rather a "serving" position. Therefore, “deacons” who give attention to the ministry of mercy (Phil. 1:1; Acts 6:1-6; cf. I Tim. 3:8-13).

Many Churches I have seen have both deacon and deaconness (mostly husbands/wives). Women are very important in all local churches. Men need to understand that biblically that godly woman is a woman of great worth, trustworthy, hardworking, diligent, caring, thoughtful, business wise, disciplined, merciful, creative, lovely and most of all she loves God. Her attitude and actions produce a legacy that is praiseworthy (See Proverbs 31:10-31) and demonstrates a joyful freedom. Men should take anything a woman say into any consideration. The headship-submission relationship is not about inherent superiority and inferiority. Women are frankly wiser, more knowledgeable, more articulate, and more discerning than men. In the Bible, women have made strong impact and throughout Christian history, I came to respect many great Christian women and their faith. They have taught me more than any ordained pastors have taught me. Women can lead but I believe women are not to be ordained. I have been in many churches including the one I am attending now, there are women leaders but within bounderies of the Scriptures. Like women can teach women and children.

 

[JustAFadedMemory]

Rom 16:1
(ALT) Now I commend to you* Phoebe our sister, being a servant [or, deaconess] of the assembly [or, church], the [one] in Cenchrea,

(GW) With this letter I'm introducing Phoebe to you. She is our sister in the Christian faith and a deacon of the church in the city of Cenchrea.


G1249
διάκονος
diakonos
Thayer Definition:
1) one who executes the commands of another, especially of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
1a) the servant of a king
1b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
1c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink
Part of Speech: noun masculine or feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands, compare G1377)
Citing in TDNT: 2:88, 152




G1249
διάκονος
diakonos
Total KJV Occurrences: 30
minister, 14
Mat_20:26, Mar_10:43, Rom_13:4 (2), Rom_15:8, Gal_2:17, Eph_3:7, Eph_6:21, Col_1:7, Col_1:23, Col_1:25, Col_4:7, 1Th_3:2, 1Ti_4:6
ministers, 6
1Co_3:5, 2Co_3:6, 2Co_6:4, 2Co_11:15 (2), 2Co_11:23
servant, 4
Mat_23:11, Mar_9:35, Joh_12:26, Rom_16:1
deacons, 3
Phi_1:1 (2), 1Ti_3:8, 1Ti_3:12
servants, 3
Mat_22:12-13 (2), Joh_2:5, Joh_2:9



VWS:
Servant (διάκονον)
The word may be either masculine or feminine. Commonly explained as deaconess. The term διακόνισσα deaconess is found only in ecclesiastical Greek. The "Apostolical Constitutions" distinguish deaconesses from widows and virgins, prescribe their duties, and a form for their ordination. Pliny the younger, about a.d. 104, appears to refer to them in his letter to Trajan, in which he speaks of the torture of two maids who were called minestrae (female ministers). The office seems to have been confined mainly to widows, though virgins were not absolutely excluded. Their duties were to take care of the sick and poor, to minister to martyrs and confessors in prison, to instruct catechumens, to assist at the baptism of women, and to exercise a general supervision over the female church-members. Tryphaena, Tryphosa, and Persis (Rom_16:12) may have belonged to this class. See on 1Ti_5:3-16. Conybeare ("Life and Epistles of St. Paul") assumes that Phoebe was a widow, on the ground that she could not, according to Greek manners, have been mentioned as acting in the independent manner described, either if her husband had been living or she had been unmarried. Renan says: "Phoebe carried under the folds of her robe the whole future of Christian theology."



RWP:
Who is a servant of the church (ousan diakonon thv ekklhsiav). The etymology of diakonov we have had repeatedly. The only question here is whether it is used in a general sense or in a technical sense as in Phi_1:1; 1Ti_3:8-13. In favour of the technical sense of "deacon" or "deaconess" is the addition of "thv ekklhsiav" (of the church). In some sense Phoebe was a servant or minister of the church in Cenchreae. Besides, right in the midst of the discussion in 1Ti_3:8-13 Paul has a discussion of gunaikav (verse Rom_1:11) either as women as deaconesses or as the wives of deacons (less likely though possible). The Apostolic Constitutions has numerous allusions to deaconesses. The strict separation of the sexes made something like deaconesses necessary for baptism, visiting the women, etc. Cenchreae, as the eastern port of Corinth, called for much service of this kind. Whether the deaconesses were a separate organization on a par with the deacons we do not know nor whether they were the widows alluded to in 1Ti_5:9 f.



Barnes:
Which is a servant - Greek," Who is a deaconess." It is clear from the New Testament that there was an order of women in the church known as "deaconesses."


Clark:
Phoebe is here termed a servant, διακονον, a deaconess of the Church at Cenchrea. There were deaconesses in the primitive Church, whose business it was to attend the female converts at baptism; to instruct the catechumens, or persons who were candidates for baptism; to visit the sick, and those who were in prison, and, in short, perform those religious offices for the female part of the Church which could not with propriety be performed by men.

JFB:
I commend unto you Phœbebe our sister, which is a servant--or "deaconess"


PNT:
A servant. The word is deacon in the Greek. The word also means "servant," as rendered, but we know that there were deaconesses in the church of the first century...

 

[ArcticFox]

Hello!

I can start by saying that I understand your concern. A desire to be faithful to the Scriptures regardless of popular culture is important.

I will tell you that I am the last person that would ever support a feminist cause for the sake of this concept of 'equality.' I support a biblical view of men and women, not a worldly, 'equality' view, whatever that word means.

However, I don't think the role of Deacon is limited to men. Do a Bible search for the Greek word and you will find several female Deacons in the NT church. Elder is the position that a woman should not occupy.

This, of course, leads us to have to come to good conclusions on what a Deacon is, and what an Elder is.

A Deacon is a helper, working in ministries of love and grace. An Elder is a teacher/leader, instructing and guiding the flock. You can immediately see why Elder is limited, and Deacon is not limited (in terms of gender).

Hope this helps! You know the Scriptures on this, so do a search and check 'em out

 

[DeaconDean]

Deleted

 

[ArcticFox]

From a Baptist perspective, the word rendered deconess in Romans 16:1 could also be rendered "servant." And when a Deacon (male) is ordained, his wife becomes a deaconess.

With all due respect to other denominations, if one reads the qualifications for "deacon" they are as such:

"Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus." -1 Tim. 3:8-13 (KJV)

I would like to make two comments.

#1: This is only one Baptist opinion, but there are many more. Baptists, being congregational in church government, vary greatly in church practices.

#2: I would agree with you, except that there are women referred to as deacons without any reference to their husband, and they are referenced not in regards to what their husbands are doing, but in regards to what THEY are doing for the cause of the gospel.

So, I do not 'negate' or 'cancel out' this truth about deacons, but assume that it must be a male-specific text that refers to both genders. There are many of these in the Bible.

The reason I don't, however, assume the same for the Elder texts is because the Scriptures are clear elsewhere about women not teaching mixed groups.

This is precisely what I mean by the phrase 'interpret Scripture with Scripture,' allowing the entirety of it to speak without canceling out or overemphasizing any one part.

 

[DeaconDean]

In order to foster harmony, since it has been pointed out that

This is only one Baptist opinion,

I will delete my previous statements. And I apologize for my shortcomings.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[cookiebear]

Thanks for the thoughts on this!

 

[a_ntv]

...

We left the church because of the leadership including a woman as a deacon, when as we clearly read that a deacon is to be a man not a woman.

Well, even if the catholic and orthodox are very strict about the impossibility to ordain a woman as priest or bishop, for the deaconate it is different.

In the East there was (and there is still in the Orthodox Coptic Church) the minister of women-deacons.

An important precisation: even if the name 'deacon' is the same for male and female deacons, the role is different: women-deacon ministry is for the service in charity, while the man-deacon ministry includes also the service on the altar (like incensation and reading of the Gospel).

Anyway for sure she (as also any lay people) can validly ministry the Baptism

...Also he said that paul had installed a woman as an apostle. I had no idea Paul chose a woman as an apostle. ...

No, he didnot
Perhaps he installed a woman a deacon (not as apostle), as per what I wrote above (It is quite impossible the St Paul allowed some women to ministry a liturgic service).

There is some confusion in some protestant denominations between the role of apostles/presbiters/elders and deacon

Us leaving the church was a hard decision as churches are very hard to find in this area, most christian churches are of mormon influence in some way or another as we are in a predominatly mormon area.

I think that you can easly find a catholic church almost everywhere also in the 'Mormons' states