I need serious help with this Gospel issue

[Benedicta00]

It still disturbs me that the alternative to loving God seems to be burning in Hell. That's just hard for me to swallow. There has to be an explanation.

I thank all of you for your posts, but I am seeing the same answers I've seen time and time again, and it still makes no sense to me logically.

My 2 cents:

The only explanation I can offer is because free will is the power to choose between the two opposites, not three.

There is no other choice to make, you either love God with all your heart, soul, mind, will or you don't. Jesus said those who are not with him are against him. There are no other options. There is only heaven and hell. Good and evil. Existence and non existence.

 

[Sword-In-Hand]

Reformationist slightly touched on this as well in another thread, but I don't want to railroad it.

I have the hardest time understanding the simplest teaching in the Gospel. Whether one believes in free-will or predestination, there comes a problem.

We are told in the Word that love is unconditional and that God loves us. That means that God must love us unconditionally, right? That being said, if He loves us then how could He allow any of us to burn in an eternal hell?

Let's say you have a son, and some of you probably already do. You will love that son unconditionally no matter what mistakes or sins he commits in his life. And you would certainly do everything in your power to make life the best for him. You certainly would not want him to eternally be punished, because your love is unconditional.

So if God loves us, how could He create us, then allow us to burn in an eternal hell? Regardless of what we've done. I'm not saying we should all go on a killing spree and get to live in eternal bliss. I just have a hard time rationalizing these three things that are connected.

Please help...

Thanks

I haven't read others posts, sorry, but I heard my pastor preach on this before and it's quite simple. God doesn't punish His children with eternal hell, its those that are not His that are punished.

 

[john14_20]

Hello Jesus Servant. Your problem is an interesting one. It has been my joy and privelege to work through this dilemma as I too have wrestled it.

How could a God who loves us unconditionally, leave us to burn in hell for all eternity?

My concluding answer is He cannot and would not.

I too was given the unsatisfying answers you have heard. I have been told He doesn't send people to hell, we send ourselves there. But really, when you think about it, that's just a pretty lame cop-out. Others have told me that He doesn't love unconditionally, but that is against the weight of Scripture. Some say He only loves the elect, and He wants those in hell to be there, but that is to describae an arbitrary and capricious God - a God not portrayed in the NT.

The NT describes a God who is totally and utterly on our side - a God who is for us.
A God who calls us into relationship with Him, through grace, and allowing us the choice to respond to Him - or not.

Does this free will of mankind end upon his death?

Does God cease to be gracious once we die?

Can God choose not be gracious at all?

I also think it helpful to define hell - and here is a clue, is hell (and Heaven) spatial? By that I mean is it a physical place?

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[love&forgiveness]

Hello Jesus Servant. Your problem is an interesting one. It has been my joy and privelege to work through this dilemma as I too have wrestled it.

How could a God who loves us unconditionally, leave us to burn in hell for all eternity?

My concluding answer is He cannot and would not.

I too was given the unsatisfying answers you have heard. I have been told He doesn't send people to hell, we send ourselves there. But really, when you think about it, that's just a pretty lame cop-out. Others have told me that He doesn't love unconditionally, but that is against the weight of Scripture. Some say He only loves the elect, and He wants those in hell to be there, but that is to describae an arbitrary and capricious God - a God not portrayed in the NT.

The NT describes a God who is totally and utterly on our side - a God who is for us.
A God who calls us into relationship with Him, through grace, and allowing us the choice to respond to Him - or not.

Does this free will of mankind end upon his death?

Does God cease to be gracious once we die?

Can God choose not be gracious at all?

I also think it helpful to define hell - and here is a clue, is hell (and Heaven) spatial? By that I mean is it a physical place?

Blessings to all, Pete

(Mat 13:42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Mat 25:46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

(Luk 12:51) Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Jesus's words ,He spoke the truth and spoke of His fathers wrath many times.
Jesus seemed to be clear there were to types of people with two different outcomes.
Jesus was love in every way ,this world doesn't teach us love it knows not of it.

Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
(Deu 7:10) And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

God has always asked this of us ,without this we know not love.

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

that's what Jesus did ,how many of us teach this love when we speak of love one another.
this life is of no importance but to serve God and love one another of His love and how He defines it ,not as the world defines it.

God bless.
paul

 

[Reformationist]

Reformationist slightly touched on this as well in another thread, but I don't want to railroad it.

I have the hardest time understanding the simplest teaching in the Gospel. Whether one believes in free-will or predestination, there comes a problem.

We are told in the Word that love is unconditional and that God loves us. That means that God must love us unconditionally, right? That being said, if He loves us then how could He allow any of us to burn in an eternal hell?

Let's say you have a son, and some of you probably already do. You will love that son unconditionally no matter what mistakes or sins he commits in his life. And you would certainly do everything in your power to make life the best for him. You certainly would not want him to eternally be punished, because your love is unconditional.

So if God loves us, how could He create us, then allow us to burn in an eternal hell? Regardless of what we've done. I'm not saying we should all go on a killing spree and get to live in eternal bliss. I just have a hard time rationalizing these three things that are connected.

Please help...

Thanks

Doesn't work does it? The concept that God loves every single person ever created equally and without preference is an unbiblical one as well as illogical considering the Bible's clear picture of His immutable and unstoppable Will. If the Lord wants you saved then it's because He, according to the Holy council of His Will, was pleased to save you. It cannot be based on a condition found in the object of grace or grace would cease to be grace and we would most certainly have something to brag about. I wish you well in this thread. Additonally, I encourage you to check out a book called TULIP by Duane Edward Spencer. It is a short, though wonderful read and does a fine job of addressing reformed theology including the most difficult of points, limited atonement.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

But does the bible lie? Does it not say that God is love? Does it not say that He desires all to be saved? Does it not say that He saw His creation as good?

Here is where I take issue with this. God does not send anyone of us to Hell it is His desire that we all be saved; how can you get around this verse?

God saw that what He created was good. How can this be ignored? He loves the sinner in so much as he is a created being.

God willed Him into existence so He loves Him as a created being but the sinner who freely chooses sin as you have already agreed can do, brings evil to his soul through sin.

The man can bring redemption to his soul through Christ if he responds to the Holy Spirit when he is convicted of his sin.

When the sinner commits blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in His foreknowledge, unto death, by rejecting His council, He is non existent. God loves this sinner in so much as he is a created being, but the soul does not exist because of the evil that fills the soul. He hates the sin but loves the sinner. Meaning, he loves what he creates and what He willed into existence but He hates the evil that original sin has brought to a soul.

Do you really disagree that God, who the bible says is love and existence itself can hate what His own hands create? If He is not all-good then doesn't He create all of us as good? How can anything that He creates be evil?

I honestly do not know how anyone can believe based on what the bible says, that God does not love us in so much we are created beings.

He saw all His creation as good, the bible says, so logically speaking, he would then send the savior for all men. The bible says that he promised to send a savior, the bible never promises that anyone IS saved.

 

[Reformationist]

But does the bible lie?

No, of course not.

Does it not say that God is love?

Is that all God is? Is He not also wrathful towards those who reject Him?

Does it not say that He desires all to be saved?

Yes, but not the way you understand it.

Does it not say that He saw His creation as good?

Do you take that to mean that He saw that His creation was good in their nature? Have you considered that it is "good" because it brings Him glory, even the things that don't seek to bring glory to Him do so?

Here is where I take issue with this. God does not send anyone of us to Hell it is His desire that we all be saved; how can you get around this verse?

I do not personally "get around" this verse. When taken in light of an understanding of the omnipotence, immutability, and omniscience of the Lord it makes perfect sense that God does not delight in the necessary extension of His wrath. When you say, "God does not send anyone of us to hell" I'm not sure I understand you. Are you implying that we stand before ourselves on judgment day and we judge ourselves to hell?

God saw that what He created was good. How can this be ignored? He loves the sinner in so much as he is a created being.

Does God love satan and the other fallen angels? What about those who serve the devil and reject the Lord? Does God love them?

God willed Him into existence so He loves Him as a created being but the sinner who freely chooses sin as you have already agreed can do, brings evil to his soul through sin.

The man can bring redemption to his soul through Christ if he responds to the Holy Spirit when he is convicted of his sin.

So the man, by his actions, wroughts condemnation upon himself and the man, by his actions, wroughts redemption? Are you saying that the man earns redemption or am I just misunderstanding?

He hates the sin but loves the sinner. Meaning, he loves what he creates and what He willed into existence but He hates the evil that original sin has brought to a soul.

Original sin is the product of God's providence. Either you acknowledge that the Fall of man was God's will or you profess that it happened apart from God's ability to stop it. Which is it?

Do you really disagree that God, who the bible says is love and existence itself can hate what His own hands create?

Absolutely and the Bible says that very thing numerous times.

If He is not all-good then doesn't He create all of us as good?

Are you actually asking if we are "good" in nature when we are born?

How can anything that He creates be evil?

God is greater than anything He creates. What does it matter if it's evil. Look at satan. Satan is completely powerless to do anything the Lord does not allow him to do.

I honestly do not know how anyone can believe based on what the bible says, that God does not love us in so much we are created beings.

Well, maybe we just haven't seen the verses you have. Which passages in Scripture indicate that God loves us because we are created beings?

He saw all His creation as good, the bible says, so logically speaking, he would then send the savior for all men. The bible says that he promised to send a savior, the bible never promises that anyone IS saved.

You address many different issues in these two statements. First, that God saw "all His creation as good" is not a reflection on them. It's a reflection on Him. It's good in the sense that it brings Him glory. In fact, when man fell he was wholly NOT good. As for whether the Bible ACTUALLY says that God sent the Savior for all men what you're saying seems completely irrational. What was the Savior sent to accomplish? Did He accomplish it? As for whether anyone is saved, there are SOOOOO many areas that explicitly state, in many different ways, that God is able to finish the work He starts in us.

 

[john14_20]

(Mat 13:42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Mat 25:46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

(Luk 12:51) Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Jesus's words ,He spoke the truth and spoke of His fathers wrath many times.
Jesus seemed to be clear there were to types of people with two different outcomes.
Jesus was love in every way ,this world doesn't teach us love it knows not of it.

Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
(Deu 7:10) And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

God has always asked this of us ,without this we know not love.

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

that's what Jesus did ,how many of us teach this love when we speak of love one another.
this life is of no importance but to serve God and love one another of His love and how He defines it ,not as the world defines it.

God bless.
paul

Hi there Paul, and God bless you.

I wish to make it 100 per cent clear from the get go, that I am not here to debate with anyone the validity of eternal torture for the unrepentant.

Many, if not most, Christians have no problem with this understanding of God. Someone who is happy with this belief, and doesn't want to challenge it, will have no problem presenting a sound Biblical argument to back up the view. Again, I am not here to argue with this person. It is more fruitless than milking a bull.

It is my position that hell is not forever; that it is the Refiner's fire. Hell will burn just hot enough to send all the sinners home to God.

I popped up here because there is someone here (Jesus Servant) who (I believe) has been quickened by the Holy Spirit to question this church teaching and is therefore ready to hear the answers.

I don't have a problem with any Christian not being ready to hear this great news - God will quicken us all in His own time.

I am here only to help a questioning Brother see the truth, and not to debate the issue with folks who don't want to know.

Here is where it's at. One day in class, our lecturer split the class down the middle. To the first group, he assigned the task of proving Biblically that humanity must not eat meat. To the second group, he assigned the task of proving Biblically that not only is humanity free to eat meat, but that humanity MUST eat meat. Both groups achieved thier goals.

The Bible can say nearly anything you want it to say.

If you want people to be tortured in the flames of hell for ever and ever you will prove your position very well from the Scriptures.

If you find this to be outside of the nature of the God revealed by Jesus in the pages of the NT, then you will prove this position very well from the Scriptures.

It's all about what God has prepared you for. If you are not ready to hear about the glorious inclusive love of God you will not hear it. If you are happy with God torturing people for ever, you will not hear the Good News. Again I say, I don't have a problem with that. I am not here to debate the issue. Paul, you and I could debate the issue for ever and not get anywhere. We would enter into a war of Verses and neither of us would convince the other one of a thing. It does no-one any good.

I am here to provide support to someone who is ready to hear.

So Jesus Servant - if you're ready and still willing, let's go for a ride!

Blessings to all in Christ - that's each and every one of you, for you are all my precious brothers and sisters, Pete.

 

[oworm]

I wish to make it 100 per cent clear from the get go, that I am not here to debate with anyone the validity of eternal torture for the unrepentant.

Using the PM or EMAIL option will guarantee that doesnt happen !!

Again, I am not here to argue with this person. It is more fruitless than milking a bull.

You would have more chance of getting milk from a bull than not inviting a challenge to statements you make on a forum board as diverse as this!!

It is my position that hell is not forever; that it is the Refiner's fire. Hell will burn just hot enough to send all the sinners home to God.

This is YOUR position

I popped up here because there is someone here (Jesus Servant) who (I believe) has been quickened by the Holy Spirit to question this church teaching and is therefore ready to hear the answers.

This is NOT church teaching, it is biblical. "Test the spirits to see whether they are from God"

I don't have a problem with any Christian not being ready to hear this great news - God will quicken us all in His own time..

This is condescending and implies that those who hold the opposite view are in some way lacking and inferior to your *higher* thinking

I am here only to help a questioning Brother see the truth, and not to debate the issue with folks who don't want to know

You claim to have the truth. How can it be *THE truth* if it is *your held position* "folks who dont want to know " is condescension again

The Bible can say nearly anything you want it to say.

Have you read your Bible , cover to cover? if so then how do you get around Jesus teaching that hell is everlasting which goes against your purgatorial *held* view?


Your views empty the cross of its power and cheapen the sacrifice of Christ.

God is HOLY and is of purer eyes than to behold sin. Those who reject the cross are still in their sins and cant be forgiven.It goes against Gods essential attributes to think otherwise. By providing a way out through the cross he has showed his love.

 

[john14_20]

Using the PM or EMAIL option will guarantee that doesnt happen !!

Hi oworm! Blessings to you in the name of Christ. Thanks for the tip - I will use the pm option.

This is condescending and implies that those who hold the opposite view are in some way lacking and inferior to your *higher* thinking

Look around this message board - that is exactly the way many people here have treated myself and others. 'Don't worry, you too will become a Calvinist when you see clearly'. Or how about closing every post with the claim that Calvanists are the only 'true' Christians as at least 3 people do. Talk about condescension - throw in arrogance too. By the way, nobody ever complains about it when it comes my way. But the first time I throw a little bit back and there's a complaint. Well what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If it's gonna come my way, be sure it's gonna come back. (I am not pointing at anyone in particular, certainly not you!)

Have you read your Bible , cover to cover? if so then how do you get around Jesus teaching that hell is everlasting which goes against your purgatorial *held* view?

Yes I have, and quite easily. Jesus simply did not teach of such a place. Historical background must be investigated as well as the Greek text. It becomes quite clear that hell has a duration as well as a purpose. (a redemptive purpose).

Your views empty the cross of its power and cheapen the sacrifice of Christ.

Oh you don't understand - Christ's sacrifice is already cheap, as cheap as it gets; it's free! And the cross has no power. The cross is two pieces of wood stuck in time and space - nothing but a cruel instrument. The crucified Christ - He has power! But what is this power? Naked, raw, abstract power? NO - it is the power to Save, to Love and to Redeem!

God is HOLY and is of purer eyes than to behold sin.

God can look upon sin. In fact He can do more than look upon it - He can can enter into it. He can walk in the flesh with it. He can sit down and talk with it. He can eat meals with it. Any talk of God being unable to look upon sin is to rob Christ of His deity. If God can't even look upon sin then it is clear that Jesus was not God.

Blessings to all, Pete

 

[john14_20]

"folks who dont want to know " is condescension again

No it isn't. It is stating a fact. You have your view that hell is forever and you don't want to hear anything to the contrary.

That is a fact, it is not condescending.

It's also a fact that I don't have a problem with. I do not judge you for not wanting to know. I don't care at all. Like I said - someone asked a question and I came to answer that question. I did not come to pick a fight, so to speak, with anyone whose views are already decided.

Blessings again, Pete

 

[Benedicta00]

Don,

From reading your last post, I think where we are speaking past each other is in our understandings of the sense this is all seen in. I view this in a eternal realm, no beginning and no end. God knew us before He made us. To me there is no time in God’s existence, he sees it all now. So God saw His creation and saw that it was good. I take this to mean that He created us for Himself, He created man in order for man to be happy and with Him. This is original justice.

Now here is the core disagreement between us, I believe He wants us to chose Him freely and you do also to an extent, you believe after the fall we are incapable of choosing freely because our natures were destroyed, no longer an image remains, so God would have to bring us back to life in order to have us choose.

I see that our nature was rendered a blow, a fatal blow if we are not redeemed and those who God knows aren’t redeemed from an eternal sense do not exist, they are as you say, dead. God doesn’t love what doesn’t exist; God is not the father of what does not exist.



The grace is God’s Son coming down and offering Himself to atone for the world’s sin (original) and offering Himself to atone for the evil in the world which is what our sins bring. The grace is that God found His offering acceptable. So God sends the Holy Spirit to the world and the grace is the Holy Spirit convicts each man of His sin and man in the way he was originally created has the power, just as Adam did, to choose to repent when convicted or to hold on to His sins and once the man does, God hardens His heart. In time concept, it isn’t over until it’s over. Man has up and until his life is over to repent but to God who time is not relevant to Him, knows in eternity the man is non existent and He does not love what is non existent. He saw His creation as good, so He loves the man is so much as He was created from eternity who was made for God, original justice.

What I am saying is that God from an eternal perspective out side of time and events loves the sinner in so much as he is a created being that was created for God. That is what original justice is but He does not love the evil that sin has brought to the man's soul. He sends the Holy Spirit to convict man of His sins and only through Christ can the man when convicted, find redemption.

When the man is in a state of mortal sin, which means the man's choice to sin brought evil to his soul, the soul is non-existent because it is dead and God hates this soul because it does not exist and God is existence Himself. But God only hates the soul in so much He knows unto physical death who will remain in sin and who will repent. He loves the soul in so much as they are a created being who He willed to exist, aka He loves the soul in it’s original justice, when he created man an saw that it was good.

Does this help better explain what I am trying to say?



Like I said, God created man in original justice, no one was excluded and He wills all into existence, from the beginning he planned all souls who will ever occupy this earth before the fall, he created us and he allowed the fall to corrupt us not so He can create a special people but in order to bring something even better than original justice and that is Christ.

 

[Reformationist]

I take this to mean that He created us for Himself, He created man in order for man to be happy and with Him. This is original justice.

This is one of the fundamental differences in our views. You say you believe that God created man for man's sake while I believe God created man to bring Himself glory.

Now here is the core disagreement between us, I believe He wants us to chose Him freely and you do also to an extent, you believe after the fall we are incapable of choosing freely because our natures were destroyed, no longer an image remains, so God would have to bring us back to life in order to have us choose.

That's a fair, though limited, explanation of my views on the Fall.

I see that our nature was rendered a blow, a fatal blow if we are not redeemed and those who God knows aren’t redeemed from an eternal sense do not exist, they are as you say, dead. God doesn’t love what doesn’t exist; God is not the father of what does not exist.

This confuses me. You told me that God is the Father of all created man in the sense that they are His creation, to include those who never embrace His Gospel and are judged to hell. Now you are saying something different, or at the very least, saying it differently. You acknowledge that God knows who aren't redeemed from an eternal perspective but I must ask what the causal agent is that you attribute with the reason some don't embrace the Gospel and become redeemed?

The grace is God’s Son coming down and offering Himself to atone for the world’s sin (original) and offering Himself to atone for the evil in the world which is what our sins bring.

You say Christ "offered" Himself as an atonement for original sin. Who did He "offer" Himself as an atonement to? Was that "offer" accepted? If so, does that mean that original sin no longer needs to be accounted for by anyone? Then, you say He "offered" Himself to atone for the evil in the world. I don't understand that. Do you mean He "offered" Himself as an atonement for the sin that brought about the world's evil?

So God sends the Holy Spirit to the world and the grace is the Holy Spirit convicts each man of His sin and man in the way he was originally created has the power, just as Adam did, to choose to repent when convicted or to hold on to His sins and once the man does, God hardens His heart.

Okay, so you're saying that reprobation is the result of holding on to one's sins, right? If that is what you're professing then what does repentance result in?

In time concept, it isn’t over until it’s over. Man has up and until his life is over to repent but to God who time is not relevant to Him, knows in eternity the man is non existent and He does not love what is non existent.

So now you're saying that God does not love everyone, at least in the eternal sense, because He knows the person will not repent?

He saw His creation as good, so He loves the man is so much as He was created from eternity who was made for God, original justice.

Which man? And what is "original justice?"

What I am saying is that God from an eternal perspective out side of time and events loves the sinner in so much as he is a created being that was created for God. That is what original justice is but He does not love the evil that sin has brought to the man's soul.

So you define "original justice" as God loving the sinner because He created the sinner?

He sends the Holy Spirit to convict man of His sins and only through Christ can the man when convicted, find redemption.

So if everyone is convicted but only some repent what makes those that actually repent do so. IOW, why do some repent and some don't? What's the defining difference?

When the man is in a state of mortal sin, which means the man's choice to sin brought evil to his soul, the soul is non-existent because it is dead and God hates this soul because it does not exist and God is existence Himself.

Okay. Here's another point of severe differences in what we believe. How do you define man's state after the Fall. I already know that you see it as "wounded" but what does that mean? What limitations does the "wounded" man face? What is his fallen disposition towards God? In the above comment you say that man's soul is non existant/dead when he commits a mortal sin so I assume you mean only after he commits this mortal sin does his soul cease to exist. What state is his soul in before he commits a mortal sin? Does it exist but just in a wounded state?

But God only hates the soul in so much He knows unto physical death who will remain in sin and who will repent. He loves the soul in so much as they are a created being who He willed to exist, aka He loves the soul in it’s original justice, when he created man an saw that it was good.

So God hates the soul and loves it at the same time but not in the same sense? Is that the actual teaching of the Catholic faith?

Does this help better explain what I am trying to say?

If possible I'm more confused than before.

Like I said, God created man in original justice, no one was excluded and He wills all into existence, from the beginning he planned all souls who will ever occupy this earth before the fall, he created us and he allowed the fall to corrupt us not so He can create a special people but in order to bring something even better than original justice and that is Christ.

And your view is that His original and eternal intention when He created each individual was that they serve Him in obedience, right? That was His goal that He desired to accomplish when He created each of us, right?

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Which man? And what is "original justice?"

I use the word man as in God loves His creation, He created Human beings and he loves what He made, He sees it as good. Do you agree with this? This is what original justice is. Man- in so far as he is a human being God’s sees as that as good.

This is one of the fundamental differences in our views. You say you believe that God created man for man's sake while I believe God created man to bring Himself glory.

No, God created man for Himself, God created man to be with happy with Him for all eternity. Do you agree with this? But what brings Him glory is man’s redemption. Falling from grace and being able to with God’s help, to choose to love Him freely. Man fell for His glory.

This confuses me. You told me that God is the Father of all created man in the sense that they are His creation, to include those who never embrace His Gospel and are judged to hell.

God is the father in a hypothetical almost, point of view to me. He created man, not so much in an individual sense although of course He did, but in a general sense He created human beings, so by virtue of that He is “father.” Do you agree with this?

Now you are saying something different, or at the very least, saying it differently. You acknowledge that God knows who aren't redeemed from an eternal perspective but I must ask what the causal agent is that you attribute with the reason some don't embrace the Gospel and become redeemed?

The reason is the same reason why God allowed Adam to fall from grace. He made man. He loves what He made but He desires man to love Him back, freely. To not love the gifts that God gave to man that before the fall was a share in the divine life of God, knowledge, wisdom, self control, no sickness or sufferings, ect. But to love the giver of those gifts. If God had not allowed man to fall, man would not be able to love Him freely.

You say Christ "offered" Himself as an atonement for original sin. Who did He "offer" Himself as an atonement to? Was that "offer" accepted? If so, does that mean that original sin no longer needs to be accounted for by anyone? Then, you say He "offered" Himself to atone for the evil in the world. I don't understand that. Do you mean He "offered" Himself as an atonement for the sin that brought about the world's evil?

He offered Himself to God to atone for man’s disobedience. He did that; God was pleased with Christ’s act more than Adam’s act displeased Him so now mankind may be saved. It couldn’t before because justice was not satisfied. Christ makes satisfaction for original sin; he doesn’t just remove it. Just as one sin brought damnation to all, the one perfect act of Christ brought salvation. Christ offered Himself, God accepted. The offense is paid in full, now God can forgive all who come to Him through Jesus.

Okay, so you're saying that reprobation is the result of holding on to one's sins, right? If that is what you're professing then what does repentance result in?

Being a reprobate is a result of man, when convicted by the Holy Spirit who has the prevenint grace from God to repent, doesn’t up and until his death. Being the elect is man when convicted of his sins by the Holy Spirit who has the grace from God to repent, does and continues to do so up and until his death.

The grace is there, the atonement is there, Christ died. The Holy Spirit shows man his sin and man has all he needs to be redeemed and he chooses and is saved or he rejects and is ******.

So now you're saying that God does not love everyone, at least in the eternal sense, because He knows the person will not repent?

What I am saying is God does not love what doesn’t exist and a man who is spiritually dead does not exist. I know you must agree with this. But Man, as long as he has a breath in his body always has the call from God to repent but if the man is a reprobate he won’t. The man is a reprobate because God harden his heart, he allowed man’s blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

So you define "original justice" as God loving the sinner because He created the sinner?

No. Original justice is how God sees man before the fall. How do you think He sees man before the fall?

So if everyone is convicted but only some repent what makes those that actually repent do so. IOW, why do some repent and some don't? What's the defining difference?

Evangelical Love.

Because we are our brothers keeper. I know you have a hard time with this but like Mary told us at Fatima; “Many souls go to hell because they have no one to offer sacrifices for them.” Now you don’t have to believe in the apparitions taking place but the gospel message is that we are to pray for the salvation of others and the souls who have no one to pray for them go to hell because they have no one to pray for their salvation.

It is like you believe; it is all up to God giving grace to the point of conversion. It is a fundamental teaching of the Catholic Church that we pray for the salvation of others and we love our neighbor with an evangelical love that saves. If we are ugly and return evil for evil, then we don’t love as commanded and we can contribute (not cause) to the damming of souls but a love that saves moves people to conversion. Evil closes one off to Christ but love opens them up. They love because the elect loves them with the love of Jesus Christ.

Mother Theresa lived this perfectly. She saw God in the souls in the street and she loved them as if it were Christ loving them Himself through her. That is what we are called to do and only through evangelical love, love that brings Christ to all people that God gives us to love can contribute to the salvation of many. Catholics believe love is redemptive and our sufferings are redemptive and our prayers, joys, works, ect are redemptive and all the baptized has this power to love in the image of Christ.

I know you will see this as self-centered and God gets short changed out of glory but I do not all see it that way. God is not all isolated up in heaven all by Himself wanting us to focus on Him without focusing on our neighbor. he says that when we love one another, we are really loving Him so I do not think this is wrong at all. The gospels says “What you do for the least of my brethren, you do unto me.” that is what God seeks, that is what brings Him glory.

Okay. Here's another point of severe differences in what we believe. How do you define man's state after the Fall. I already know that you see it as "wounded" but what does that mean? What limitations does the "wounded" man face? What is his fallen disposition towards God? In the above comment you say that man's soul is non existant/dead when he commits a mortal sin so I assume you mean only after he commits this mortal sin does his soul cease to exist. What state is his soul in before he commits a mortal sin? Does it exist but just in a wounded state?

Before the fall God saw us as good, that is original justice. After, he sees us as fallen wounded by sin and he still loves us in this fallen state, that is the whole reason why he sent us a savior. Because he so loved the world.

He does not kill souls; evil kills souls. We are born sick God sent us the cure and if man does not receive this cure he will die. When man dies he ceases to exist. Only when man chooses sin- evil will then be brought to the soul when man chooses sin unto death evil has completely taken him over. God hates the evil that sin brings to man’s soul. That soul does not exist. God does not love something that does not exist because He is existence Himself.

So God hates the soul and loves it at the same time but not in the same sense? Is that the actual teaching of the Catholic faith?

What the Church teaches is that God loves the elect and the reprobate He hates for the reason I just stated above. He loves the sinner (man who has been made in His image and likeness) but hates the sin (the evil that sin as brought to the soul).

And your view is that His original and eternal intention when He created each individual was that they serve Him in obedience, right? That was His goal that He desired to accomplish when He created each of us, right?

He created us to know Him, love Him, and serve Him. To be reasonably happy in this world and supremely happy with Him in the next. He accomplished this by allowing evil so he may bring a greater good from it. He allowed the fall of man so that He could bring true justice and that is Christ.

Had Christ not come, then God would not have been glorified.

 

[Reformationist]

I use the word man as in God loves His creation, He created Human beings and he loves what He made, He sees it as good. Do you agree with this?

I agree that God sees that His creation brings Him glory. There can be no doubt that we are fearfully and wonderfully made but if you're asking do I think that God "loves" all of creation because IT is good, then, most definitely not.

This is what original justice is. Man- in so far as he is a human being God?s sees as that as good.

I guess I'm just having a hard time grasping why you keep calling it "original justice." That seems an odd way of relating to the grace of an omnipotent God for His creation.

No, God created man for Himself

Okay.

God created man to be with happy with Him for all eternity.

All mankind? Definitely not. To support this view is to support the concept that the original and eternal plan of God went awry and He had to come up with a plan "b."

But what brings Him glory is man?s redemption.

ALL things bring glory to God. ALL things. It is completely glorifying to God to extend His wrath against unrighteousness and it is completely glorifying to God to have mercy on His elect.

God is the father in a hypothetical almost, point of view to me. He created man, not so much in an individual sense although of course He did, but in a general sense He created human beings, so by virtue of that He is ?father.? Do you agree with this?

No, as I've told you numerous times. The fact that He created all of mankind makes Him their Creator. He is only Father, in every sense of the Word, to His children. His child is not a title given to all whom He created. It is given to them that receive Him and believe on His name:

John 1:12,13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Being reborn into the family of God is the work of God. It is not the cooperative work of man and God. It is not the work of man. It is the work of God and God alone.

If God had not allowed man to fall, man would not be able to love Him freely.

Did Adam and Eve love God against their wills prior to the Fall? Was free will something that become part of man's nature because of the Fall? The serpent told Eve the same thing. He said that the result of disobedience would not be death, as had promised the Lord, but rather that man would be free to choose for himself, knowing good and evil.

He offered Himself to God to atone for man?s disobedience. He did that; God was pleased with Christ?s act more than Adam?s act displeased Him so now mankind may be saved.

Let me get this straight. Christ, whose sacrifice you acknowledge as infinitely more pleasing than was Adam's disobedience displeasing, gave His life for us and that made it so that we MAY be saved? This makes no sense. I know that you and I have differing opinions as to the effects of the Fall but I do not believe either of us deny it actually happing. So Adam disobeyed God and it resulted in the actual Fall of man and Christ, who was God incarnate and, thus, infinitely more valuable, obeyed God even unto death and all He accomplished was the POSSIBILITY of salvation???!!!

It couldn?t before because justice was not satisfied. Christ makes satisfaction for original sin; he doesn?t just remove it. Just as one sin brought damnation to all, the one perfect act of Christ brought salvation.

Let's break this down and see if you actually believe what you just typed here.

Adam's sin ****** the entirity of mankind, right? It didn't just make damnation possible, right? It actually resulted in the damnation of the seed of Adam, right?

All of this power you attribute to Adam's disobedience and yet Christ's perfect work doesn't result in anyone's actual salvation, rather it makes salvation possible for all?

Do you believe that or did you just improperly portray your position?

Christ offered Himself, God accepted. The offense is paid in full, now God can forgive all who come to Him through Jesus.

You ever see those infomercials that say stuff like, "Only 3 easy payments of 19.95!!! And that's not all!!! You'll get this tupperware set for FREEEEE!!!"? You know, it irks me a bit because it's not really "free." First off, there's shipping and handling. Secondly, "free" isn't the term they mean. What they mean is "included in the price!!!" Of course "free" sounds better. The problem is, they don't actually mean "free." If you don't believe me, call them and ask them if you can have just the "free" item. It's the same thing with what you're saying. You don't reeeeally mean "paid in full." According to you, forgiveness isn't really yours until you exercise your faith and "accept." If you don't believe me ask yourself if your debt is "paid in full" even if you don't accept it.

Being the elect is man when convicted of his sins by the Holy Spirit who has the grace from God to repent, does and continues to do so up and until his death.

So being one of God's "elect" is a conditional placement based on the adherance by the individual? Strange, my Bible says that election is based on the purpose of God, not the individual:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Our calling is according to His purpose, not man's committed response or forseen response.

Romans 9:11
for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls

Romans 9:15,16
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is NOT of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

The grace is there, the atonement is there, Christ died. The Holy Spirit shows man his sin and man has all he needs to be redeemed and he chooses and is saved or he rejects and is ******.

Got it. You're saved because of your choice to be saved. I'm glad you finally just came out and said it.

What I am saying is God does not love what doesn?t exist and a man who is spiritually dead does not exist. I know you must agree with this. But Man, as long as he has a breath in his body always has the call from God to repent but if the man is a reprobate he won?t. The man is a reprobate because God harden his heart, he allowed man?s blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

You must have just read a new book or heard a new sermon on "man not existing when his soul is in a state of mortal sin" because this is about the 20th time I've heard you use this phraseology in the last day.

No. Original justice is how God sees man before the fall. How do you think He sees man before the fall?

By "man" do you mean Adam and Eve or are you asking if I think God changed the way He felt about man when man fell from grace?

Evangelical Love.

Because we are our brothers keeper. I know you have a hard time with this but like Mary told us at Fatima; ?Many souls go to hell because they have no one to offer sacrifices for them.? Now you don?t have to believe in the apparitions taking place but the gospel message is that we are to pray for the salvation of others and the souls who have no one to pray for them go to hell because they have no one to pray for their salvation.

Are you honestly saying that you believe that some don't end up getting saved because others didn't pray for them???!!!!

It is like you believe; it is all up to God giving grace to the point of conversion. It is a fundamental teaching of the Catholic Church that we pray for the salvation of others and we love our neighbor with an evangelical love that saves. If we are ugly and return evil for evil, then we don?t love as commanded and we can contribute (not cause) to the damming of souls but a love that saves moves people to conversion. Evil closes one off to Christ but love opens them up. They love because the elect loves them with the love of Jesus Christ.

I can't believe this. I've never heard of this teaching before. I'm not sure that it would be possible for me to say anything about this without getting banned. :o :o

I know you will see this as self-centered and God gets short changed out of glory but I do not all see it that way.

I can honestly say that I've never heard anything so self centered, so man centered, in all my life. I'm not intentionally attacking your faith Michelle. I am just shocked beyond words.

In fact, I'm relatively sure that I should not comment on the rest of this post. Thanks for sharing your views. I'll be signing off now.

Good night and God bless,
Don

 

[love&forgiveness]

'let's go for a ride'.
that was so true ,can i get off now.

God chooses heaven ,we choose hell.
the chosen go to heaven the choosy go to hell.
if we give up our choices and let God steer we are then of Him and are chosen.
but if we choose for ourselves our lives we then make the choices.
we are responsible for our own actions ,but when we are of the spirit we do what is of God He chooses for us.
is our choice better or Gods.
is it better for us to choose or God.
can we choose in the spirit ,can we choose the life God calls of us in the spirit.
if we choose a life of sin is that the life God chose for us.
but if we serve God and do His work ,do we choose that spiritual life or is what He has chosen for us.

(Psa 100:3) Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

(Joh 8:44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

there seems to me to be two paths one of God and one of satan.
Gods is the glowing path of gold the perfect way chosen of God for us.
the other way is of satan and is full of sinful choices not of God but of satan ,we fullfill the lusts of our own minds this way we are a servant to sin but we chose it and choose all it's lusts.
the path of God is straight to heaven it is built of Him we do all He asks we give all our heart ,mind and soul to Him ,we are not of ourslelves but of God of the spirit.
we do the things of God we speak the things of God we live a life blessed in His love this is chosen ,this is of God not our sinful minds.

God bless.

 

[Benedicta00]

Don,

Since you ended your post with this agitation, I must ask did you read the whole thing?

I am spending a lot of my own personal time trying to help you just understand what we believe, not to be shocked by it. No one here is asking you to embrace this or to renounce what you believe to be true. I can get just as shocked as some of the stuff that you post but I don't because it will not help "faith that seeks understanding."

I could sure use you being a little more tolerant and hanging in there with me. Even if you don't agree, read to the explanations so you will not go about believing a false premise. If you are shocked then please ask questions. You do not have to get all balled up in a knot. It isn't even worth it.

The only thing I will try to explain to you is that I am very much in line with Catholic teaching. Catholics believe and it is a very valid thing to believe that we are to love each other as Christ loves us, Jesus says that "this is how they will know you are my disciples" and how did Christ love? He sacrificed His life so that we may live.

What do you think lent is about? Why do you think monks live in a cave? What do you think a cloistered nun is? Why do you think we offer the sacrifice of the mass?

We believe what St. Paul says that we must "pray with out ceasing" so we have these extraordinary people that God raised up for our example. They live their lives in constant around the clock prayer and service to God and they teach the laity to offer their life as a prayer to God for the salvation of souls. We do that by offering up our prayers, joys, works, sufferings, etc. in union, not apart from, but in union with Jesus Christ. Christ is what gives our prayer its power to draw down grace from God so a soul will repent.

I mean this is not as blown out of proportion as you make it. As a reformed person, haven’t you ever lead a soul to Christ? Or do reformed people believe they can plead the blood for someone? There are many Protestants that believe we can pray for God to convict a soul of his sins. We believe as Christians we have the right to ask God as his children, to be merciful to another soul.

. Is this really and truly the first time you are learning this about Catholics? We do not believe we can die for them and save them. Christ is the savior of the world and we pray for souls, that God will give them the necessary graces they need to repent, because with out grace, they can't do it.

Have you hard of St. Monica? St. Augustan's mother? She prayed for 30 years for Augustan and St. Ambrose encounter her in tears, because Augustan was a pervert and atheist, he had a illegitimate child, he lived with a bunch of women and Monica, was crying over his soul and Ambrose consoled her and said, "God will not ignore the tears of such a mother." St. Augustan converted and became a doctor of the Church, he became the bishop of Hippo, and he wrote many, many spiritual masterpieces and is a canonized saint and a doctor of the Catholic Church. Monica was canonized a saint for her patience, love, trust, faith and belief that God would not abandon her but hear her prayer and answer it.

We don’t believe Monica, his mother saved him. We believe in the power of prayer. We believe that God hears the prayers of his children and do you think he ignores the prayers of his children?

The bible says that God desires the salvation of all men so praying for God’s will to be done is very much biblical and when we pray for the salvation of another, that is in line with his will and he will hear our prayer and answer it.

This is very deep and do not even know where to begin to even try to explain this to you but God in eternity saw our prayers and used them in his plan.

I don't know what else to say, God is always the one in control, Catholics do not believe anything less and many Protestants believe you can pray for others to come to the knowledge of God and be saved so I don't even know why you act as if this is the first your hearing about this.

 

[Sera'naphsus]

I told Sera'danna humanity would have a problem with this whole predestination and freewill thing, but here goes. If you don't believe you are responsible for your actions then stop reading and disregard this.

Predestination is eventual, and freewill, is responsible for the length of time at which the soul returns Heaven. Thus, from Heaven ye came, to Heaven ye shall go. From what you said, you pointed to the assumption that God created the Hell for you. Wrong! you are responsible for your Journey and Heaven is the eventual destination like I said. Understanding Hell, like I do, is a mere weigh station, nothing permanent. Heaven can eventually be permanent for those that choose it.

Remember: 1. Demons will tell you what you want to hear without bringing God into it. God's the last thing they want to suggest to you. They want you to fail, but will seem as though they don't.

2. Angels will always bring God into it, but in a way that doesn't use scriptural understanding, specifically. They will tell you what you don't want to hear, making them most likely to be ignored. That is due largely, in part, to the fact that what we have to say is based on our knowledge of God and how we were created, not an understanding of God through thorough study of the Bible. So it does appear that there is no foundation for speaking about God.

Sera'naphsus