I Mean No Disrespect!!!

[epistemaniac]

I would disagree with the Borg recommendation... he and the Jesus Seminar are not reliable guides in this area (the historical Jesus). Check out responses to the Jesus Seminar eg by JP Moreland, “Jesus Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents the Historical Jesus.” . Also see NT Wright N.T. Wright Page ; The Historical Jesus and Christian Theology by N.T. Wright etc
and Luke Timothy Johnson's book "The Real Jesus".... and others....

As far as the OP itself goes... check out some information on epistemology, especially from a Christian perspective. Robert Reymond's "Justification of Knowledge" or Richard Pratt's "Taking Every Thought Captive" or Ronald Nash's "Worldviews in Conflict". Here Nash rigidly critiques the naturalistic methodology which is based on empiricism, or as Plantinga puts it, "narrow foundationalism". This worldview, seemingly the default position for atheists and agnostics, is sadly lacking when it comes to forming a full orbed perspective on reality. Empiricism cannot answer so many of life's questions. It can't even answer many very mundane questions. Sadly, people think that if something cannot be addressed by the empirical method is is somehow automatically false. In reality, this tool is very limited. In fact, the logical positivists who claimed that nothing could be considered knowledge unless it was first provable using the empirical method failed to see that this very statement is itself a metaphysical statement that is not, itself, empirically verifiable, and thus it fails it's own test for "true" knowledge, and thus, the whole system is self referentially false. When you ask how you know that other people have minds, or that history is a reality even though it is not provable via empirical means, you are making claims to knowledge that are reasonalbe, that no sane person would doubt, yet the "proof" for these things is not something that you could prove in a laboratory. Metaphysical questions simply cannot be answered by science, as useful and beneficial as science has in fact been. At any rate, the existence of God, the veracity of the Scriptures... these are questions and issues that you have to look into yourself and answer for yourself. There is no going to heaven on someone else's coat tails. Faith is individual and subjective, but this is not the same thing as saying that there are no objective reasons for believing in things like the existence of God and the authenticity and truthfulness of the Christian scriptures, and their superiority over the other writings of the world religions. Just remember that any question that you ask has been asked before, and has been answered by Christian thinkers, writers, theologians and philosophers... so check out the writings of people like

William Lane Craig
Alvin Plantinga
Peter Kreeft
JP Moreland
John Frame
Cornelius Van Til
Gordan Clark
Francis Schaeffer
RC Sproul
Augustine
Anselm
John Calvin
John Owen
Jonathan Edwards
BB Warfield
Robert Reymond
JI Packer
Ravi Zacharias
Paul Copan
Carl Henry
John Gerstner

etc etc etc

blessings,
ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Matt said "You cannot be absolutely sure there is a God... period. Some people are absolutely sure there is a God while others are absolutely sure there isn't a God. Come to your own conclusions."

I just don't see how one person can tell another that they cannot be sure, even absolutely sure, that God exists. You are of course quite free you have your own experience where you may have varying degrees of certainty or uncertainty regarding God's existence. But to dictate to another person what their experience MUST be is imperialistic and simply not within your capacity, period. And, it seems that some people do indeed know that there is a God, without any doubt at all. It is odd that this is troubling to you, but that is just the way of things. Other people's experience will differ from your own. No need to get upset about it, and there is just no sense in getting upset about it, it is inevitable.

blessings,
ken

 

[wayseer]

I suspect QuestionMark is a bit of a troll. He has posted four posts all much similar and has not returned. Maybe he is just enjoying watching Christians fight each other - beats watching TV.

 

[chingchang]

Before Reading this post you must know that I mean NO DISRESPECT. I really don't care what you believe in and I'm tolerant of all faiths as long as they don't intend to harm anyone. I just have questions...
First of all, let me start off by telling you that I'm agnostic. I come from a Christian family and in this past year I've done some questioning and when I ask people for answers they tell me to read the bible and it just leads to more questions. The biggest question that I have is how can I be absolutely sure that there is a god? If you tell me "It says it in the bible" Then I ask you, How can I be sure that the bible is true? What gives the bible any more veracity than any other religious ancient scriptures. Then there's the statement "Well we all got here some how." Ya but how do we know it was this god that you speak of? I'm really sorry if I offended anyone and I don't mean to "stir things up." I'm just really in need of answers.

You need to experience God so that you know he exists...then move on from there. There are many intellectual paths to take...that may or may not lead you to God (probably not). So...as a general rule I don't like referring folks to the appologists that try to debate atheists and the likes. I urge you to seek God and I'm confident if you do so you'll experience him. Pray for God to hear your voice and ask him to reveal himself to you. Ask him to give you the faith you are lacking to believe the work that Jesus did for us. If you do that with genuine motives...I'm positive he'll give you what you need to exercise faith. That is what God does...

Hugs,
CC

 

[Webers_Home]

.
RE: I urge you to seek God and I'm confident if you do so you'll experience him. Pray for God to hear your voice and ask him to reveal himself to you. Ask him to give you the faith you are lacking to believe

Why narrow the field down to just Christianity's god? An agnostic, by definition, neither affirms nor denies the existence of all supreme beings; which includes, but not limited to, Islam's Allah, Judaism's Yhvh, Christianity's Christ, and Hinduism's Siva, Brahma and Vishnu.

What you are doing is recommending that agnostics pray into the air, as if speaking to an imaginary playmate, not really knowing with which of those beings, if any, they'll connect. That's bad advice as the Bible's God doesn't accommodate people who pray at a venture.

†. Jas 1:5-8 . . If any need wisdom— let him ask of God, and He will gladly respond; and not resent your asking. But when you ask Him, be sure that you really expect God to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. People like that should not expect to receive anything from The Lord. A vacillating person cannot make up their minds. They waver back and forth in everything they do.

†. Heb 11:6 . . Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He exists.

Note the words impossible and must.

RE: Ask him to give you the faith you are lacking to believe the work that Jesus did for us. If you do that with genuine motives...I'm positive he'll give you what you need to exercise faith.

(chuckle) If the world could be saved by a cliché; I've no doubt that one would top the list.

Mark Twain once remarked that "faith" is a man believin' something he knows ain't so; which is very similar to Webster's definition of superstition.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[OzSpen]

Wayseer,

I suspect QuestionMark is a bit of a troll. He has posted four posts all much similar and has not returned. Maybe he is just enjoying watching Christians fight each other - beats watching TV.

I think that you are correct. After 25 replies to his questions, he is not here to debate/discuss with us.

 

[Evergreen48]

Before Reading this post you must know that I mean NO DISRESPECT. I really don't care what you believe in and I'm tolerant of all faiths as long as they don't intend to harm anyone. I just have questions...
First of all, let me start off by telling you that I'm agnostic. I come from a Christian family and in this past year I've done some questioning and when I ask people for answers they tell me to read the bible and it just leads to more questions. The biggest question that I have is how can I be absolutely sure that there is a god? If you tell me "It says it in the bible" Then I ask you, How can I be sure that the bible is true? What gives the bible any more veracity than any other religious ancient scriptures. Then there's the statement "Well we all got here some how." Ya but how do we know it was this god that you speak of? I'm really sorry if I offended anyone and I don't mean to "stir things up." I'm just really in need of answers.

I am absolutely sure there is a God. I have tried thinking the other way, and it just does not work. The evidence for there being a God is just too overwhelming. But this evidence which compels and controls me the most is invisible and unspeakable, so I cannot use it to convince anyone else. I believe that you also have been given this evidence at one time or another, but have chosen to either ignore it, or deny it. Otherwise you would not be asking people who do believe there is a God for answers.

 

[Soul Searcher]

All I can say is if anyone is absolutely sure it rules out faith. Faith is believing something without being sure of the truth of the matter at hand. No one is or can be absolutely sure and those who say they are, are either lying or confused as to the meaning of being absolutely sure. They may strongly believe they may even think they absolutely believe but many who have had this frame of mind have later fallen away and even came to believe the oposite. They were never absolutely sure and never will be unless they die and see for themselves first hand that what they believed was right, before this happens it is faith not knowledge of things unseen.

 

[OzSpen]

QuestionMark:

Before Reading this post you must know that I mean NO DISRESPECT. I really don't care what you believe in and I'm tolerant of all faiths as long as they don't intend to harm anyone. I just have questions...
First of all, let me start off by telling you that I'm agnostic. I come from a Christian family and in this past year I've done some questioning and when I ask people for answers they tell me to read the bible and it just leads to more questions. The biggest question that I have is how can I be absolutely sure that there is a god? If you tell me "It says it in the bible" Then I ask you, How can I be sure that the bible is true? What gives the bible any more veracity than any other religious ancient scriptures. Then there's the statement "Well we all got here some how." Ya but how do we know it was this god that you speak of? I'm really sorry if I offended anyone and I don't mean to "stir things up." I'm just really in need of answers.

You have posted this same message to 4 different threads. If you are serious with,"I'm just really in need of answers," why are you not interacting with the people who have responded to you. I have checked the other 3 threads and you have made very few posts of response to the people who have taken the time to interact with you.

Why are you not talking with us?

 

[chingchang]

RE: I urge you to seek God and I'm confident if you do so you'll experience him. Pray for God to hear your voice and ask him to reveal himself to you. Ask him to give you the faith you are lacking to believe

Why narrow the field down to just Christianity's god? An agnostic, by definition, neither affirms nor denies the existence of all supreme beings; which includes, but not limited to, Islam's Allah, Judaism's Yhvh, Christianity's Christ, and Hinduism's Siva, Brahma and Vishnu.

What you are doing is recommending that agnostics pray into the air, as if speaking to an imaginary playmate, not really knowing with which of those beings, if any, they'll connect. That's bad advice as the Bible's God doesn't accommodate people who pray at a venture.

Matthew 7:7-8 (NIV)
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

As far as "which of those beings, if any, they'll connect" to...do you believe those other beings actually exist that CAN be connected-to? I'm curious....

†. Heb 11:6 . . Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He exists.

Sure...but where does that faith come from? Even that faith is a gift from God...

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

...that is why I suggested he pray and ask God for that faith (gift).

RE: Ask him to give you the faith you are lacking to believe the work that Jesus did for us. If you do that with genuine motives...I'm positive he'll give you what you need to exercise faith.

(chuckle) If the world could be saved by a cliché; I've no doubt that one would top the list.

Mark Twain once remarked that "faith" is a man believin' something he knows ain't so; which is very similar to Webster's definition of superstition.

C.L.I.F.F.

I suggested that he earnestly seek to experience God and pray for faith. I believe God will hear him and give him the little faith he needs to move forward. You obviously seem to know better. I don't understand why you've quoted Mark Twain here...what is your point?

CC

 

[Soul Searcher]

You do realize that one must have at least a little faith in order to pray for faith, otherwise thier prayer is not sincere as they would believe nothing is there to hear the prayer.

 

[Evergreen48]

All I can say is if anyone is absolutely sure it rules out faith.

So being absolutely sure there is a God rules out faith. What of it? Where is it said that faith is involved in this particular matter? How can one have true and real faith in something that they are not entirely sure exists?

Faith is believing something without being sure of the truth of the matter at hand.

That is your definition, not mine. My definition of faith runs along the same lines as that of the writer to the Hebrews.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for (expected), a conviction of things not seen.

No one is or can be absolutely sure and those who say they are, are either lying or confused as to the meaning of being absolutely sure.

You are welcome to your opinion of course, but I am certainly not lying, and neither am I confused as to the meaning of being absolutely sure. I am as sure of this as I am sure of the fact that I'm going to get wet if I stand out in the rain, or jump into a pool of water. And I'm as sure of this as I am sure that the flesh on my fingers is going to get burned if I hold them in a flame of fire. There are some things or circumstances in this finite world to which there are no variables attached, (without divine intervention) and I have just mentioned 3 of them.

They may strongly believe they may even think they absolutely believe but many who have had this frame of mind have later fallen away and even came to believe the oposite. They were never absolutely sure and never will be unless they die and see for themselves first hand that what they believed was right, before this happens it is faith not knowledge of things unseen.

Knowledge of 'things unseen' comes from God, and is not of the same 'nature' as the faith which is spoken of in the scriptures. For it seems to me that true and real faith can only come from a sure and certain knowledge which only God can give us. There are things in this life that we do not know, because we cannot see, what is the end of them. And so we press on toward the end of these things having faith in Him that the end will be as He has promised it to be. It seems to me that being absolutely sure that "God Is" would have to precede true and real faith, or else what other foundation is there?

 

[hybrid]

double post

 

[hybrid]

The biggest question that I have is how can I be absolutely sure that there is a god?

first : for a truth seeker, agnosticism is the right attitude towards finding it.
an agnostic has a courage of conviction and in a position for an unbiased investigation.

theists and atheist judgment are clouded by their advocacies and their strong identification and clinging to their beliefs.

second: before going to the search of god, i suggest that you try to know as much as you can to answer this question ...

"why or how is there something instead of nothing? "

if you have to use philosophy, religion or science to at least have a feel of the profoundness of the question ... this might lead you to answer your own question about god.

 

[hybrid]

the bible i think did have scriptures that give references to the attainment of an absolute knowledge of god. but this is a totally subjective state of mind or totally transcending the mind. the knowledge is not transferable the same way there is no amount of words to describe the taste of an apple. one has to bite one on his own to "know" in an absolute sense the "taste" of an apple.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
RE: Matthew 7:7-8 . . Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

That passage doesn't apply to agnostics; whom the Bible's Jesus regards as beasts. It only applies to believers whose God is their Father rather than regarding Him as just another supreme being.

†. Matt 7:6-12 . . Do not give dogs what is sacred; nor throw your pearls to the hogs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

. . Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

. .Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

It is necessary to undergo a second birth as per John 3:3-11 before anybody has the right to own God as their Father.

†. John 1:12-13 . . To all who accepted him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Agnostics are vacillators; a category that James says should not expect to get a response from God.

†. Jas 1:5-8 . . If any need wisdom— let him ask of God, and He will gladly respond; and not resent your asking. But when you ask Him, be sure that you really expect God to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. People like that should not expect to receive anything from The Lord. A vacillating person cannot make up their minds. They waver back and forth in everything they do.

Agnostics are unbelievers, a category that Hebrews says should not expect to connect with the Bible's God.

†. Heb 11:6 . . Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He exists.

Note the words impossible and must.

RE: Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

You erred by assuming that the phrase "not from yourselves" refers to one's faith rather than one's salvation. Here's another translation that clarifies the meaning.

†. Eph 2:8-10 . . God rescued you by His benevolence when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

And:

†. Titus 3:4 . . He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His compassion.

RE: I suggested that he earnestly seek to experience God and pray for faith. I believe God will hear him and give him the little faith he needs to move forward. You obviously seem to know better.

Yes, I do.

RE: I don't understand why you've quoted Mark Twain here...what is your point?

Agnostics regard people like you as superstitious; which Webster's defines as: of, or relating to, or swayed by, superstition; which Webster's defines as: 1) an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God; and 2) a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary; hence Twain's comment: "faith is a man believin' something he knows ain't so."

Human beings, on the whole, are quite naturally superstitious. Man's propensity to superstition is so strong that even if there were no supreme being, he would invent one. Even Twain was a tad superstitious. He once remarked that; though he didn't believe in a hereafter, he nevertheless expected one.

You see, it's insulting to their intelligence for you to recommend that agnostics speak into the air to a supreme being whom they do not even believe is there. And you are insinuating that they are a tad superstitious too; which, for the most part, they aren't.

RE: As far as "which of those beings, if any, they'll connect" to...do you believe those other beings actually exist that CAN be connected-to? I'm curious

You narrowed the possibility of connecting with a supreme being down to just your god rather than the possibility of some other. That is not an objective approach; no, that is subjective; in fact you've presumed to do the agnostics' research for them instead of standing aside and letting them do their own thinking. Sad to say; Christians are among the most biased, bigoted, and opinionated people on earth.

Instead of bending agnostics to your will, try sympathizing with them for a change; and make an honest effort to see things from their perspective.

†. Luke 6:31 . . Do for others as you would like them to do for you.

(BTW: that verse is not a recommendation, no, it is a command; viz: an edict.)

Dr. Laura says one of the stupid things men do, in her book Ten Stupid Things Men Do To Mess Up Their Lives, is try to fix a woman. Well, I think it would be wise to apply her advice to agnostics too. The minute you start trying to fix them, that's the minute you start looking pretty stupid.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[chingchang]

RE: Matthew 7:7-8 . . Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

That passage doesn't apply to agnostics; whom the Bible's Jesus regards as beasts. It only applies to believers whose God is their Father rather than regarding Him as just another supreme being.

Jesus drank and ate with those "beasts". You'll have to forgive me...because I thought "everyone" in the scripture above was actually everyone.

Agnostics are vacillators; a category that James says should not expect to get a response from God.

I used to be an atheist. Not only did I get a response...he sought me out. I got the feeling the OP was truly searching...maybe he wasn't as some suggested. That is why I gave a serious answer.

A vacillating person cannot make up their minds. They waver back and forth in everything they do.

Agnostics are unbelievers, a category that Hebrews says should not expect to connect with the Bible's God.

Again, I was an unbeliever...an atheist...at one point and I've connected with God. You can scoff...but you can't make my experience any less real.

RE: Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

You erred by assuming that the phrase "not from yourselves" refers to one's faith rather than one's salvation. Here's another translation that clarifies the meaning.

†. Eph 2:8-10 . . God rescued you by His benevolence when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

And:

†. Titus 3:4 . . He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His compassion.

I believe you are in error. You can't have salvation without faith. Both are gifts. How can someone like myself go from having no faith...to having faith? Did I just wake up one day and decide "I'll think I'll believe foolishness...starting today"? No. I have not given this man one bit of bad advice. Are you trying to keep him out of the Kingdom? Good luck...

RE: I suggested that he earnestly seek to experience God and pray for faith. I believe God will hear him and give him the little faith he needs to move forward. You obviously seem to know better.

Yes, I do.

Perhaps you do. Oh...Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James all had something to say about being humble...have your read those scriptures?

RE: I don't understand why you've quoted Mark Twain here...what is your point?

Agnostics regard people like you as superstitious; which Webster's defines as: of, or relating to, or swayed by, superstition; which Webster's defines as: 1) an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God; and 2) a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary; hence Twain's comment: "faith is a man believin' something he knows ain't so."

Human beings, on the whole, are quite naturally superstitious. Man's propensity to superstition is so strong that even if there were no supreme being, he would invent one. Even Twain was a tad superstitious. He once remarked that; though he didn't believe in a hereafter, he nevertheless expected one.

You see, it's insulting to their intelligence for you to recommend that agnostics speak into the air to a supreme being whom they do not even believe is there. And you are insinuating that they are a tad superstitious too; which, for the most part, they aren't.

I could care less...I know they regard what we believe as foolishness...so what? I'm not trying to win a debate.

RE: As far as "which of those beings, if any, they'll connect" to...do you believe those other beings actually exist that CAN be connected-to? I'm curious

You narrowed the possibility of connecting with a supreme being down to just your god rather than the possibility of some other. That is not an objective approach; no, that is subjective; in fact you've presumed to do the agnostics' research for them instead of standing aside and letting them do their own thinking. Sad to say; Christians are among the most biased, bigoted, and opinionated people on earth.

Instead of bending agnostics to your will, try sympathizing with them for a change; and make an honest effort to see things from their perspective.

I think you've read meaning into my post that isn't there. But...all the thinking in the world won't lead them to God. I don't say that as a matter of opinion...

1 Corinthians (NIV)...
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Oh...and yes it is obvious that you are opinionated...but you are biased and bigoted as well? Your words...not mine...

†. Luke 6:31 . . Do for others as you would like them to do for you.

(BTW: that verse is not a recommendation, no, it is a command; viz: an edict.)

And your point? Jesus had MANY commands. Are you fully obeying ALL of them? I'm working on the two that he said were the GREATEST...and what James called the Royal Law. If I can get that right...the rest should be a breeze...

Dr. Laura says one of the stupid things men do, in her book Ten Stupid Things Men Do To Mess Up Their Lives, is try to fix a woman. Well, I think it would be wise to apply her advice to agnostics too. The minute you start trying to fix them, that's the minute you start looking pretty stupid.

C.L.I.F.F.

I wasn't trying to fix him...he asked a question and I gave him what I think is good advice. I didn't seek him out...and I don't give a crap about what Dr. Laura says. Geeeesh...talk about biased...bigoted and opionated (your words not mine). I think you've nailed Dr. Laura.

CC

 

[Webers_Home]

.
RE: I used to be an atheist. Not only did I get a response

God pays no attention whatsoever to an atheist's prayers.

†. Jas 1:5-8 . . If any need wisdom— let him ask of God, and He will gladly respond; and not resent your asking. But when you ask Him, be sure that you really expect God to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. People like that should not expect to receive anything from The Lord. A vacillating person cannot make up their minds. They waver back and forth in everything they do.

†. Heb 11:6 . .Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists.

Note the locations of the words impossible and must.

An atheist is a dunce.

†. Ps 14:1 . .The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.

An atheist's prayers are evil.

†. Pro 28:9 . . If anyone turns a deaf ear to the teachings, even his prayers are detestable.

†. Pro 15:29 . .Yhvh is far from the wicked but He hears the prayer of the righteous.

In reality, somebody, somewhere, a person of faith, prayed for you; acting as an intercessor on your behalf. You yourself did not get through; nor could you get through. You should be very thankful that a person of faith somewhere took in interest in your situation.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[chingchang]

.
RE: I used to be an atheist. Not only did I get a response

God pays no attention whatsoever to an atheist's prayers.

†. Jas 1:5-8 . . If any need wisdom— let him ask of God, and He will gladly respond; and not resent your asking. But when you ask Him, be sure that you really expect God to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. People like that should not expect to receive anything from The Lord. A vacillating person cannot make up their minds. They waver back and forth in everything they do.

†. Heb 11:6 . .Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists.

Note the locations of the words impossible and must.

An atheist is a dunce.

†. Ps 14:1 . .The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.

An atheist's prayers are evil.

†. Pro 28:9 . . If anyone turns a deaf ear to the teachings, even his prayers are detestable.

†. Pro 15:29 . .Yhvh is far from the wicked but He hears the prayer of the righteous.

In reality, somebody, somewhere, a person of faith, prayed for you; acting as an intercessor on your behalf. You yourself did not get through; nor could you get through. You should be very thankful that a person of faith somewhere took in interest in your situation.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

God sought me out in the same way he sought Paul and others. It is God's choice to let me see...to give me the faith that I need to experience being saved. Granted...I asked for it...but he called me. We obviously have some fundamental disagreements on who can be saved. I believe God saves those that he chooses to...and hardens those that he wants to harden. One's salvation is not dependent on the prayers of others...it is dependent on God making a choice. Maybe God is calling the Agnostic who started this thread...

BTW...saying "an atheist is a dunce" is ridiculous. They don't have the ability to believe what we do. You've obviously either had bad experiences with atheists before and your emotions are getting the best of you...or you aren't really that into developing the characteristics of love and humility...

CC

 

[Celticflower]

Ok, now I'm confused. You mean to tell me that if a person who is an atheist reaches a point where they acknowledge the need for help from a source outside of themselves, and earnestly cry out to God, that He will turn a deaf ear to them? What about all the people who testify that God met them in their unbelief and changed their lives?

Please don't put God into such a small box. He's a lot bigger than you, me and all the atheist here.