I may be starting to fall...

[Umut]

I need some definitions...

They're about plagirism in Christianity.

I know my metaphorical mother told me not to play with Atheists, but I got this message from one.

He says: "Are you aware of how much Christianity has plagirised from other religions?"

He told me a bunch, I will now list them below:

The virgin birth
son of god
three wise men
sermon on the mount
miracle healings
salvation ideas
last supper
betrayal by a disciple
execution on a hilltop
resurrection after three days
Hell
Heaven and salvation
baptism

He also says:

These ideas were very popular at the time, especially in Zoroastrianism, and with Osiris and Mithra. Mithra accounts for much of Christian dogma, and was responsible for all sorts of other things, such as the halo (Mithra's crown).

I want to know if there are some people knowledgable on the subject. Perhaps I could talk to someone who is knowledgable on the subject that you know; and you could provide a way of communication with them?

These things are really taking away my sleep. It's disturbing. I can't just block them out, because I want to know if I'm on the wrong path here...

I believe in God for many reasons; but if these claims are true, then is Christianity the way?

Please prove them wrong? lol *nervous*

 

[MariaRegina]

I need some definitions...

They're about plagirism in Christianity.

I know my metaphorical mother told me not to play with Atheists, but I got this message from one.

He says: "Are you aware of how much Christianity has plagirised from other religions?"

He told me a bunch, I will now list them below:

The virgin birth
son of god
three wise men
sermon on the mount
miracle healings
salvation ideas
last supper
betrayal by a disciple
execution on a hilltop
resurrection after three days
Hell
Heaven and salvation
baptism

He also says:

These ideas were very popular at the time, especially in Zoroastrianism, and with Osiris and Mithra. Mithra accounts for much of Christian dogma, and was responsible for all sorts of other things, such as the halo (Mithra's crown).

I want to know if there are some people knowledgable on the subject. Perhaps I could talk to someone who is knowledgable on the subject that you know; and you could provide a way of communication with them?

These things are really taking away my sleep. It's disturbing. I can't just block them out, because I want to know if I'm on the wrong path here...

I believe in God for many reasons; but if these claims are true, then is Christianity the way?

Please prove them wrong? lol *nervous*

Dear Umut:

Please don't dialogue with Atheists nor open any mail or posts from them.

The Greek Orthodox believe that the Greek Pagan Philosophers paved the way for the Greeks to accept Christ. Remember the unknown God which was in the Greek temple that St. Paul talked about? St. Paul used that temple dedicated to the unknown God and said that this unknown God is the Triune Christian God whom they did not know.

All religions, EVEN PAGAN RELIGIONS, have part of the truth, but YOU HAVE THE FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH.

Know that I will pray for you.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

P.S. Read the New Testament -- not the Old. The NT will ground you in your faith. Atheists have been known to use the OT against us because it is considered X-rated due to all the sex and violence in it.

P.P.S. I just picked up a holy Icon of St. Nectarios the Wonderworker from the Shrine in Covina, California. Would you like it? He wrote a lot of catechetical books that still haven't been translated from the original Greek.
He probably has answered most of your questions in one of his hundreds of books.

 

[OrthodoxTexan]

Mithra accounts for much of Christian dogma, and was responsible for all sorts of other things, such as the halo (Mithra's crown).

The Roman Mithraic cults borrowed from Christianity, not the other way around.

 

[Suzannah]

Umut,
Please listen to Elizabeth...she is telling the truth. What your atheist is spouting is some rather disputed material from Greek paganism. The Mithras issue is one that has been debunked over and over again. Elizabeth is also right to tell you not to dialogue with atheists until you are strong in your faith. Atheists have one goal in mind: namely to wipe out ALL religion, not just Christianity, but ALL faith, in all cultures everywhere. Their agenda is wipe "God" from your vocabulary and your soul. If you were still a Muslim, I would tell you the same thing: Don't dialogue with atheists. They have nothing to offer people of faith. Once you are grounded in your faith, you will be able to talk to them, be friends with them, even chat about such matters. But until then, it would sort of be like me chatting with bin Laden and pleading with him to stop terrorizing humanity. Ain't gonna happen.

p.s.: I have to laugh at the thought of an atheist using religion, any religion, but especially paganism, to debunk Christianity...rather backward isn't it? Tell him to get a better argument and come back in ten years.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Of course Christianity is the way, Umut.

There is only one Man in history who has had the effect that Christ had. What other Man is still being talked about 2000 years later, still influences how we live and work, and even our calendar, for goodness' sake? God had to have had something to do with that!

These other religions that your atheist acquaintances mention - they had bits of Truth, pieces of Truth, here and there. St. Paul tells us that the law is written on the hearts of all men - even someone who has never heard the Gospel in any way, shape, or form "knows" certain things - knows intrinsically that there is a God, etc. Everyone has a sense that there is something greater and higher than they are. And some "know" more than others. These other religions had pieces of the Truth, but not the whole Truth.

St. Justin Martyr wrote in the 2nd century that the author of lies, the devil himself, had given these other religions this much information that would later be shown as Christian Truth, to throw people off and make them doubt Christ. And other Fathers believed that these religions had some similarities to Christianity because of the principal of the law being written on one's heart - somehow, these religions just "knew" some things, just as we all "know" some things, but because it was not yet God's providential time, they did not know all that was to be revealed. That is what I tend to believe. They didn't know who Christ was, but they knew there was some Power greater than they, and they did their best. And you know what? They were judged by the light they had. Just as we all are. (** I have more to say on this, but I'll save it for now.) We are held accountable for what we know. "To whom much is given, much is required." It was not their fault that they did not yet have the fullness of the faith. They did the best they could with what they had. To me, it does not matter how they knew what they did, whether by nature or instinct or even the wiles of the evil one. They were trying to serve "God", in the only ways they knew.

Christ is Truth and Love and Goodness incarnate. Anytime someone did something in the name of their "god" that was good and loving and selfless - it was actually done for Christ, even if they did not know His name! All these little "pieces" that other religions had - Christ is the fulfillment of them! He is the fulfillment of Truth, that which came in "the fullness of time". He is "the fulfillment of all in all."

I recently had the experience of having a short email conversation with a fellow that HATES the Orthodox Church. Absolutely loathes us, convinced that HE has the right doctrine, and we're just disgruntled Roman Catholics, headed for hell. My almost-husband told me I was just wasting my time trying to make him see the light, and he was right. After about 6 letters, I was tearing my hair out, wondering how on EARTH someone could be so full of poop, so full of negativity and hate and trying to destroy the faith of others, yet so convinced of themselves and their own rightness. (Needless to say, I finally wised up and left it alone, for he and God to sort out.) I think that is what you should do, Umut. Our salvation is a life-long process, one we must continually strive for, continually battle against the evil one, and the last thing we need is to bring MORE difficulty upon ourselves when we're really not equipped to handle it!

Last but not least, let me say this: It comes down to faith. Pure and simple. Do you have faith that God is real, or do you have faith that He is a lie? The atheists have faith, just as much as any Christian - they just have it in the other direction. To me, it is quite obvious that it takes a lot of blind faith to be an atheist. When one looks at the order of the cosmos, how on earth is it that we don't crash into another planet, or all burn up in the sun? How is it that the mix of oxygen in the air is just the right amount to sustain life? How is it that creatures can make new creatures, that all the DNA and chromosomes work together just right? How is it that we are even here. I guess some folks can believe it was a cosmic accident that came from nothingness. But that's a lot harder to believe than it is to believe that we have a Loving Creator who desires to see us live, to enjoy beauty, to love.

Finally, Umut, a prayer for you to pray, right out of Scriptures, to add along with all the folks here who will be praying for you:

"I do believe, Lord. Help my unbelief!"

In Christ,

Katherine

 

[Umut]

You are so right

Last but not least, let me say this: It comes down to faith. Pure and simple. Do you have faith that God is real, or do you have faith that He is a lie? The atheists have faith, just as much as any Christian - they just have it in the other direction. To me, it is quite obvious that it takes a lot of blind faith to be an atheist. When one looks at the order of the cosmos, how on earth is it that we don't crash into another planet, or all burn up in the sun? How is it that the mix of oxygen in the air is just the right amount to sustain life? How is it that creatures can make new creatures, that all the DNA and chromosomes work together just right? How is it that we are even here. I guess some folks can believe it was a cosmic accident that came from nothingness. But that's a lot harder to believe than it is to believe that we have a Loving Creator who desires to see us live, to enjoy beauty, to love.

I used the exact argument against Atheists they just ignored it.

I included more detail of it, though.

God: The Evidence talks about all these things and I was actually interested in reading it.

I'm on the phone with Andreas; he has already cleared up my mind on the issue. I cannot believe it. So simple. So pure. I will remind myself time to time never to speak to Atheists...

How pathetic of me...

 

[Umut]

I was telling Andreas about something I couldn't really explain.

In a nutshell; can you imagine NOTHING existing. Absolute, pure nothing? No consciousness?

It's hard to imagine isn't it?

To blink out of existence?

This is what we're afraid of. That's the best tool the Atheists had against me.

But when you think about it, God is the only eternal conscious. He is inside and out, Alpha and Omega.

He said the Universe could be Eternal; I disproved him, he ignored me.

Hard to get into his mentality; I just think he doesn't like believing in God because of what he interprets the situation of RULES that seem hard to follow.

This other atheist said he liked vodka.

Says alot doesn't it?

No meaning of life, walking with their heads down.

No worries; I'm back!

Something about me: I always do this. I recover from stuff in an instant..

Thank God you all are here for me!!

I think I'm going to cry...

 

[Suzannah]

No worries; I'm back!

Something about me: I always do this. I recover from stuff in an instant..
Thank God you all are here for me!!

I think I'm going to cry...

Umut...that's a spiritual gift you know.. .ask Andreas about this on the phone...
It's called being optimistic. Christians are HOPEFUL people! Atheists, in general, are not, beyond the bounds of what they consider "EXISTENCE"....how much more we have than they! Pity them...pray for them...but for right now, don't dialogue with them....there comes a point in every person's spiritual life when the phrase takes on real meaning: "Cast ye not, your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn on you.."

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Umut,

Would you like a small icon card of St. Nectarios?

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Umut]

SAINT NECTARIOS?

*CHOKES ON HIS OWN EXCITEMENT*

MOST DEFINITELY!

Please, yes!

How wonderful of you!
---------------------
Suzannah, I'm off the phone with Andreas right now, but I will talk to him tomorrow after school. He knows that I wonder in and out of these things really fast.

I'm quite surprized I have this gift. I believe that you guys ARE this gift. You immediately pick me up when my mind falls into crud.

Thank you all so much. I've learned from this.

Andreas said that what I'm doing is going to war with 2 weeks of training. He's right, good analogy.

I'll most definitely stop talking to atheists.

 

[Umut]

Suzannah, I forgot in which thread I asked you this; but is it okay to wear the prayer rope around your wrist if you're occupied at the moment?

I remember you said I could wear it like a bracelet so my mom wouldn't know...

Confirm?

Thanks,

In Christ,

Umut.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Umut:

Wearing the prayer rope around your wrist will definitely be noticeable. I put mine in my jacket pocket, then I can finger it inside my pocket privately -- but be sure to take it out before putting your jacket in the laundry.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[countrymousenc]

Dear Umut:

Please don't dialogue with Atheists nor open any mail or posts from them.

Umut, Elizabeth gave you very good advice. You are not ready to face off against these people, and the vast majority of them are not interested in the truth. There are demonic forces at work in atheism. Be patient, and take the time you need to learn, first. The character quality that we need most of all before dealing with them is humility.

 

[Patristic]

Umut,


Would this happen to be the same forum you and I were conversing in the other night? Anyways, the argument that Christianity copied materials from the Mithras and Dionysus cults is a popular argument these days. I remember reading Freke and Gandy's book on this subject and wanting to throw the book across the room before I actually calmed my emotions and then proceeded to examine the book from a historical and classical point of view. First, as a student of the classics, these arguments make several methodological errors. The first being that for the argument to be valid the existence of the person of Jesus Christ must be denied! Historically, this is absolutely ludicrous and absurd; Even groups like the Jesus seminar believe Jesus was a historical person, they just deny that He was the Son of God. For the plagarism myth to be true Jesus must be a mythical person just like Dionysus and Mithras. Any serious scholar could easily debunk this position and it has been laughed out of virtually every scholarly circle, even the ones that aren't kind to Christianity. Moreover, the fact that Jesus' early followers claimed He was divine and rose from the dead blows the myth theory out of the water. Mithras and Dionysus did not exist as historical individuals; Even if they were actual people it would be as Saint Augustine claimed. They were individuals who existed hundreds of years before the time the myths grew up around them. The cults and myths took hundreds maybe a thousand years to spring up, in Jesus' case it took 15-30 years. That is a huge difference and makes Christianity's claims a lot more convincing.

Second, the mystery religions of ancient Greece and Rome were very different from Christianity. Sure, they had their similarities but most of our Christian traditions and practices are actually rooted in Judaism and not paganism. This is a fact that is often overlooked and utterly shatters the Jesus mysteries thesis. Here are just a few of the traditions and practices that Christianity shares in common with Judaism: Passover and Pascha are closely related and have similar spiritual significance, the Eucharist was a Jewish passover meal and the concept of offering bread and wine as a sacrifice has it's roots in the Jewish todah offering, baptism has it's roots in the Jewish ritual of purification and cleansing with water, the animal sacrifices in the temple were precursors to Christ's sacrifice on the cross(in fact, the symbol made on the outer doorpost of Jewish homes with the passover lamb's blood was made in the shape of a cross), our liturgy and worship comes from Jewish worship practices. These are just a few of the similarities I could list, but the fact remains that these Jewish traditions are just as old, if not more ancient, than the practices of the mystery cults. I am still waiting for the day when someone writes a book saying the Greco-Roman mystery cults copied Jewish rituals.

 

[Christy4Christ]

I can relate to faith wavering a little after spending any time at all talking with an Atheist. I am pretty sure that anyone here that has spent time there can understand. I am not certain that I really want to spend time over in GA anymore and I would say that maybe, if you have had this experience, the best thing to do is stay out of there. The people there are very smart and just like Satan can get you to believe their lies. I am sorry to compare them to Satan but somehow that is what it reminds me of.

 

[nyj]

Umut, the whole deal with Mithraism is a farce.

Mithraism : Not An Influence On Christianity

 

[Suzannah]

Suzannah, I forgot in which thread I asked you this; but is it okay to wear the prayer rope around your wrist if you're occupied at the moment?

I remember you said I could wear it like a bracelet so my mom wouldn't know...

Confirm?

Thanks,

In Christ,

Umut.

Yes, you can wear it as a bracelet. Many people in my church do....the Priest who taught me the Jesus prayer, also said that when you are around people who are hostile to the faith, you can put it in your left pocket and that way you can still hold it, and do your prayers secretly. Remember that God loves one who prays in secret!!!
P.S.: It is 100 percent wool, so like chanter said, DON'T PUT IT IN THE WASHING MACHINE!!!!

 

[Alfred M]

Umut,

Always remember, before I knew God, before I knew Jesus Christ, before I knew the Holy Spirit...I was in essence "pagan". Yet now I have my faith in my Creator, in the Divine Logos, and the Holy Spirit. In many ways I may appear to be the same body and have many characteristics of the "pagan" I used to be...yet I am now different due only to the love that God has for me. Christianity is a continuum of "becoming". Do not let others take what is the past and proclaim false the living God that has called you and you have heard His voice.

In the love of our Saviour,
Alfred, lowliest of sinners

 

[Umut]

Andreas said that there is some truth in almost every religion. Even paganism had some truth to it. The Greeks and the idea of "Son of God" and so much more he mentioned on the phone.

Yep...

 

[MariaRegina]

Andreas said that there is some truth in almost every religion. Even paganism had some truth to it. The Greeks and the idea of "Son of God" and so much more he mentioned on the phone.

Yep...

Andreas and Umut -- be on the lookout for a size 10 envelope.

It's for both of you.