I hold a view similar to the Open View of God.

[FutureAndAHope]

I have a view similar to the Open View of God. What is this view, it is that God although a planner, does not know every choice that man will make. It is supported by verses like:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

This scripture is quite clear, God saw man’s evil, and wished that He had not created man. This can only happen in a situation where the future is partially “open”, not foreknown, certainly not preplanned.

But this would not come as a surprise to a person who believes God gives man the ability to make choices.

When investigating the issue of foreknowledge and how much freedom man has, I have read the early church fathers, from the first and many from the second century. From their writings, it is clear they believed in two things:

• Man has genuine free will, that God gives his good will to all
• They also believed that God has foreknowledge

So this introduces a challenge, how can God have foreknowledge, and free will still exist? There are many mysteries that we can not know. But I do have a theory on this.

I did some research into the theory of time, and theoretically it is possible to move both forward and backwards in time. This would allow God the Father to send information about time backwards in time to the beginning. So basically God could know that was going to happen in time at the start.

But time is still a reality, there are still free choices. God would have to play through time to “see” what happens. This is why He could have regret, and wish He had not created man, for there was a point that time was “open” to even God. Yet not entirely open, I believe God puts constraints on the choices we can make.

An interesting point is that even within the Godhead there, is hidden knowledge, Jesus did not know everything about creation that the Father knew. But that is a thought for a different time.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have a view similar to the Open View of God. What is this view, it is that God although a planner, does not know every choice that man will make. It is supported by verses like:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

This scripture is quite clear, God saw man’s evil, and wished that He had not created man. This can only happen in a situation where the future is partially “open”, not foreknown, certainly not preplanned.

But this would not come as a surprise to a person who believes God gives man the ability to make choices.

When investigating the issue of foreknowledge and how much freedom man has, I have read the early church fathers, from the first and many from the second century. From their writings, it is clear they believed in two things:

• Man has genuine free will, that God gives his good will to all
• They also believed that God has foreknowledge

So this introduces a challenge, how can God have foreknowledge, and free will still exist? There are many mysteries that we can not know. But I do have a theory on this.

I did some research into the theory of time, and theoretically it is possible to move both forward and backwards in time. This would allow God the Father to send information about time backwards in time to the beginning. So basically God could know that was going to happen in time at the start.

But time is still a reality, there are still free choices. God would have to play through time to “see” what happens. This is why He could have regret, and wish He had not created man, for there was a point that time was “open” to even God. Yet not entirely open, I believe God puts constraints on the choices we can make.

An interesting point is that even within the Godhead there, is hidden knowledge, Jesus did not know everything about creation that the Father knew. But that is a thought for a different time.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Then you are saying that God is not omniscient which also means he is not omnipotent. That is not God. Also, your thinking demonstrates the notion that God is subject to time, and whatever other things you consider 'reality'. In your thinking, God is not the 'inventor' of time and reality.

All things begin with God. Apart from him, there was nothing—no principles, no fact, no reality— until he created. All other things depend on and logically descend from his creating.

Can you prove that man has freewill? It seems to be one of the foundations of your theory.

 

[David Lamb]

I have a view similar to the Open View of God. What is this view, it is that God although a planner, does not know every choice that man will make. It is supported by verses like:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

This scripture is quite clear, God saw man’s evil, and wished that He had not created man. This can only happen in a situation where the future is partially “open”, not foreknown, certainly not preplanned.

But this would not come as a surprise to a person who believes God gives man the ability to make choices.

When investigating the issue of foreknowledge and how much freedom man has, I have read the early church fathers, from the first and many from the second century. From their writings, it is clear they believed in two things:

• Man has genuine free will, that God gives his good will to all
• They also believed that God has foreknowledge

So this introduces a challenge, how can God have foreknowledge, and free will still exist? There are many mysteries that we can not know. But I do have a theory on this.

I did some research into the theory of time, and theoretically it is possible to move both forward and backwards in time. This would allow God the Father to send information about time backwards in time to the beginning. So basically God could know that was going to happen in time at the start.

But time is still a reality, there are still free choices. God would have to play through time to “see” what happens. This is why He could have regret, and wish He had not created man, for there was a point that time was “open” to even God. Yet not entirely open, I believe God puts constraints on the choices we can make.

An interesting point is that even within the Godhead there, is hidden knowledge, Jesus did not know everything about creation that the Father knew. But that is a thought for a different time.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Your notion that God does not know some things before they happen doesn't seem to fitwith what Isaiah wrote, recording God's words:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken [it]; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed [it]; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Your notion that God does not know some things before they happen doesn't seem to fitwith what Isaiah wrote, recording God's words:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken [it]; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed [it]; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)

God still plans many things. He is not without planning. I just don't believe God plans out the choices that people will make. He can't, for He says that He tempts none to sin, neither is tempted by sin.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

This means man is a free agent with regard to sin. If a free agent with regard to sin, then why not in regard to righteousness.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Then you are saying that God is not omniscient which also means he is not omnipotent.

The view of God should be based on scripture, not words man has invented to try to describe God. Scripture shows that God granted man free choice, and man chose evil not good.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

To say God can't give free will and still be all powerful, is actually limiting God.

That is not God. Also, your thinking demonstrates the notion that God is subject to time, and whatever other things you consider 'reality'. In your thinking, God is not the 'inventor' of time and reality.

All things begin with God. Apart from him, there was nothing—no principles, no fact, no reality— until he created. All other things depend on and logically descend from his creating.

Can you prove that man has freewill? It seems to be one of the foundations of your theory.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

God has always been willing to save, but people have often resisted. You might fight the meaning of that verse, but my rendering is what the Early Church held to, see Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202]:


1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202] Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)

The whole of scripture makes people responsible for their actions; we are judged by our deeds.

But some specific verses on free will see:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

The one person can make two choices, one resulting in life, one in death.

Even Cain was offered life if "He did well":

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The above scripture about receiving the Holy Spirit, shows an order of salvation, that includes "our actions". 1) the word comes, 2) if we obey 3) then the Father will love us, and manifest himself to us.

 

[David Lamb]

God still plans many things. He is not without planning. I just don't believe God plans out the choices that people will make. He can't, for He says that He tempts none to sin, neither is tempted by sin.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

This means man is a free agent with regard to sin. If a free agent with regard to sin, then why not in regard to righteousness.

Sorry, you seem to have changed the subject from what God knows in advance of it happening to what God does. God knew before He created the earth that man would sin, and that He, God, would provide salvation for sinners. These verses speak of God's wonderful plan of salvation:

“3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,” (Eph 1:3-5 NKJV)

But that does not mean that God Himself is the author of sin.

Regarding man being a free agent in regard to sin, I would say that an unsaved sinner is not free, but in bondage. Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome:

“But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.” (Ro 6:17 NKJV)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

These verses speak of God's wonderful plan of salvation:

A plan that picks and chooses, based upon no deed of man, is not only unscriptual, but is ceratinly not "wonderful".

Rather, this is the wonderful plan of God. That God extends HIs goodness out to all He has created.


For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (NKJV, 1Timothy 2:3-6)

“3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,” (Eph 1:3-5 NKJV)

To be chosen "In Christ", is not to say God picked and chose, individuals for salvation. But rather as "Christ was foreordained", we were a chosen people "In Him". As the gentile was previously not classed as chosen, so we were all chosen before creation. It was a part of God's plan.

1Pe 2:9-10 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Regarding man being a free agent in regard to sin, I would say that an unsaved sinner is not free, but in bondage. Paul wrote to the Christians in Rome:

“But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.” (Ro 6:17 NKJV)

Yes, man is enlaved to sin, yet they can still "obey from the heart" the call to accept Christ, and His power over sin.

 

[David Lamb]

Yes, man is enlaved to sin, yet they can still "obey from the heart" the call to accept Christ, and His power over sin.

But Paul in writing to the Christians at Ephesus reminds them how they had been saved. Not by them obeying from the heart (they were "dead in trespasses and sins) but by God taking the initiative. Look at all the things God does:


“4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:1-10 NKJV)


Only once God had acted could they start obeying Him.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I have a view similar to the Open View of God. What is this view, it is that God although a planner, does not know every choice that man will make. It is supported by verses like:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

This scripture is quite clear, God saw man’s evil, and wished that He had not created man. This can only happen in a situation where the future is partially “open”, not foreknown, certainly not preplanned.

But this would not come as a surprise to a person who believes God gives man the ability to make choices.

When investigating the issue of foreknowledge and how much freedom man has, I have read the early church fathers, from the first and many from the second century. From their writings, it is clear they believed in two things:

• Man has genuine free will, that God gives his good will to all
• They also believed that God has foreknowledge

So this introduces a challenge, how can God have foreknowledge, and free will still exist? There are many mysteries that we can not know. But I do have a theory on this.

I did some research into the theory of time, and theoretically it is possible to move both forward and backwards in time. This would allow God the Father to send information about time backwards in time to the beginning. So basically God could know that was going to happen in time at the start.

But time is still a reality, there are still free choices. God would have to play through time to “see” what happens. This is why He could have regret, and wish He had not created man, for there was a point that time was “open” to even God. Yet not entirely open, I believe God puts constraints on the choices we can make.

An interesting point is that even within the Godhead there, is hidden knowledge, Jesus did not know everything about creation that the Father knew. But that is a thought for a different time.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

This is a perfect example of the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction. I understand that this is one of the ways to dispute predestination, an Augustinian theological view on God's sovereignty however, it is not necessary to go so far by embracing Open Thiesm. So the question remains, how can God have foreknowledge and also give His creation the will to make decisions without His predetermination? Well, wouldn't this be the ultimate example of His sovereignty?
God's foreknowledge is not a causal force that determines human choices, but rather a perfect and timeless awareness of all that will happen. In this sense, God knows what choices we will make without compelling us to make them, thus preserving human freedom while affirming divine omniscience. This is perfect Sovereignty.
Blessings

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But Paul in writing to the Christians at Ephesus reminds them how they had been saved. Not by them obeying from the heart (they were "dead in trespasses and sins) but by God taking the initiative. Look at all the things God does:


“4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:1-10 NKJV)


Only once God had acted could they start obeying Him.

The Holy Spirit is not just dumped on some people, and then they believe. See Jesus' words on receiving the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

Joh 14:22-23 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Jesus gives us His word, shows us the cross. We then have a choice to make, either obey, or disobey the revelation we have received. If we obey the Father then loves us, and makes His home with us.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God's foreknowledge is not a causal force that determines human choices, but rather a perfect and timeless awareness of all that will happen. In this sense, God knows what choices we will make without compelling us to make them, thus preserving human freedom while affirming divine omniscience. This is perfect Sovereignty.

I know that this is a commonly held view. But we also need to not close our ears to the word of God. The Early Church believed in foreknowledge that God had knowledge of what WAS going to occur, like you said. But the Bible is quite clear, there were things even God did not know about human choices.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

We see the LORD "saw", when He saw, He wished He had not created man.

This shows there was a tiem when God was "experiencing" human choices, and responding to the element of the unknown.

I really don't know why the unknown scares Christians, if time is a reality, and choices real, of course there will be things God does not know.

Yet, when we look at time, as a theory, we see it is theoretically possible to move, both forward, and back ward in time. Although this is impossible for us, it may be something natural for God. This would allow God to know what will occur, like He is reading a book about creation, but time is something He must first "experience", a thing He must "see". We would assume God could alter time, but chooses not to. Injecting only enough of His knowledge, to show His power, yet not too much as to alter time itself. Note these are just theories, I don't say they are truth.

 

[Colo Millz]

The open theists worship a diminished god.

For a God who does not know is a God who waits, and a God who waits is a God who lacks.

That is not the infinite, perfect Being upon whom all else depends.

Rather, it is a creature like us, caught in time.

Providence itself would collapse, for how could God govern what He cannot foresee.

 

[BeyondET]

It's figure of speech, verse that's similar.

Gen 3
8 Then the man and his wife heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the breeze of the day, and they hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

9 But the LORD God called out to the man, “Where are you?”

 

[Colo Millz]

...

We see the LORD "saw", when He saw, He wished He had not created man.

This shows there was a tiem when God was "experiencing" human choices, and responding to the element of the unknown.

It's an analogy.

 

[David Lamb]

The Holy Spirit is not just dumped on some people, and then they believe. See Jesus' words on receiving the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

Joh 14:22-23 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Jesus gives us His word, shows us the cross. We then have a choice to make, either obey, or disobey the revelation we have received. If we obey the Father then loves us, and makes His home with us.

But in both of the passages you quote, Jesus was speaking to people who were already His disciples. They already believed in Him. He wasn't talking to unbelievers.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But in both of the passages you quote, Jesus was speaking to people who were already His disciples. They already believed in Him. He wasn't talking to unbelievers.

According to your version of salvation, we don't need to perform any "action" to receive the Holy Spirit it is just given. The reality is the words of Jesus fit with scripture, regarding general salvation (which He is talking about).

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

There is always a choice, God opens the ears (so we can hear), if we obey, we live, if we choose to disobey we perish.

Besides, what you say is not true. Look at Jesus words:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

These people who Jesus is talking about, in the beginning, had not yet made a home with God. The disciples were already God's. Note it says will "love him"; him is a general term. He also states 'if "anyone"', meaning the general population of people. He is not talking to just the disciples, he show how it "works" for anyone.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

It's an analogy.

How so. What is God trying to say? BTW I don't agree with the statment. It is plain clear scripture.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

It's figure of speech, verse that's similar.

Gen 3
8 Then the man and his wife heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the breeze of the day, and they hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

9 But the LORD God called out to the man, “Where are you?”

Tell me what it is supposed to mean?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The open theists worship a diminished god.

For a God who does not know is a God who waits, and a God who waits is a God who lacks.

That is not the infinite, perfect Being upon whom all else depends.

Rather, it is a creature like us, caught in time.

Providence itself would collapse, for how could God govern what He cannot foresee.

God is love, love is a thing that is not manufactured, only a free will being can love. We were created in God's image. With the ability to show love, or refrain from it. It is not about control, but about God experiencing man's reciprocal love. How do we show love for God, not by fuzzy feelings, but by our obedience.