I have questions and reasurances...

[jeshohaia]

Hey all,

I have always had questions about the Catholic Church. Dont get me wrong. I have G-D Parents that are Catholic and I respect them and I also respect the faith of the Catholic Church.

I have questions that might beter be adressed by the whole body here.

Now, considering that Yeshua was a Jew, and His last meal was the Passover Sader, arent you missing aspects of the Passover in your communion which if you study the Passover Sader what Jesus did at certain times makes more sense to the diety of the Messiah?

Isnt Ignatius of Antioch the same one who told Christian Jews to not practice "their jewry"?

Didnt Yeshua practice all the feasts and festivals of the Jewish Faith along with all the apostles including Peter? Why isnt there evidence in your communion or your holidays of this?

Wasnt the 1st century church modeled after the 1st sentury synagog?

Why doesnt your church have any evidence of its Jewish Heritage?

This has always been so very confusing to me. And reasons why I have never fully seen the Catholic Church as the original "Universal" church. I am sorry. If you can give me examples of your link to the first century church PLEASE PLEASE please! Send it to me.

And please do not use Ignatius of Antioch (as any reference) he has little credibility to me or really to any Hebraic Christian or Hebrew for that matter. . It hurts me thinking about how we had to become the harlot with the goyim just to survive. Exactly what G-D told Abraham not to do. And this started at Antioch.

I need reassurance. Most churches still feel funny when some says that they are a hebrew and a christian. I have never felt comfortable talking about my families history with anyone of faith save a small handful that ask me why I dont eat certain things and do things differently than everyone else.

I need to know that there is a church out there that can provide a safe environment so that I can publicly raise my future children to fear the LORD G-D, the G-D of the Jew and of the Gentile. To live as the saviour did. And to practice the ways of the people that G-D blessed so that they may remember the Exodus and Purim and other historical events that set us apart and saved us as a Hebrew people.

I need to know that you are open to everyone and every people...

Not that we dont worship the same G-D. I just do it differently and my people always have. Its tradition. Thats how we have survived numerous thousands of years of persecution. My G-D is your G-D.

Please reasure me! I am trying to forget and gain a beter perspective of everything since I came back to the LORD. And this has been a center point of allot of biterness. Help me get over it. Please.

I would like to thank you in advance. And lift up your name in prayer to the LORD G-D! Nothing sweeter than His name. The name of the living Savior. Who will return again.

 

[Rising_Suns]

jeshohaia,
I see you have much passion for the Lord and am encouraged by your post, as it poses some great questions. Since I am not qualified to answer them, I will pass it to someone who is, but I would just like to be the first to welcome you To One Bread One Body (usually known as OBOB ). I am sure your questions will be answered in time, and I pray that the good Lord will lead you to reconsile your differences with our Faith.

a good site to check out regarding the writing of the Early Church Fathers and Catholicism, is www.Catholic.com There is alot of great info there, but I do believe some of your questions go into a little beyond the scope of the information on that site. But do check it out if you have not already done so.

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Chris be with you always.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi jeshohaia

This book might help you with your questions . . it was written by Eugenio Zolli
who was the cheif rabbi of Rome during the holocaust . . .. he was one of the foremost Old Testament scholars of his time. After WWII he converted to Cathlicism with his whole family.

Why I Became a Catholic

Peace in Him!

 

[Papist]

Much of the groundwork to our understanding of the Holy Trinity comes from the Hellenistic-Jewish books of the Old Testament which are known to Protestants as the Apocrypha. As I understand it, these books are not in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, they are very important to my faith as they are an expression of the continuity between Judaism and Christianity.

The main reason that Catholicism does not include obviously Jewish practices is related to Peter's vision in Acts, and the Council of Jerusalem. The early Church, as recorded in Acts, decided that Gentiles did not have to adopt Jewish practices in order to become Christians. The Jewish segment of the early Church then petered out (no pun intended).

I, personally, would like to see more Jewish tradition used to express the Christian faith -- however, that is a personal view. I have attended Christian Passover Seder and have been very moved by them. Such Seder are an increasing feature of Christian life -- they are certainly catching on.

Rob

 

[Papist]

I think your question may be answered by reading Acts 15.

Hope that helps.

Rob

 

[Skripper]

Jeshohaia,

You may be interested in this:

http://www.womenofgrace.com/conferences/speakers/Rosalind%20Bio%20Web.htm

And this: http://www.stjosephradio.org/pages/tapes/rosalind-moss.htm

If I were you, I would phone Rosalind at Catholic Answers. My hunch is that she would be more than happy to explain everything to you, from a Jewish perspective: 619-387-7200

 

[Ampmonster]

welcome jeshohaia. i dont know to much about your questions either, but welcome to CF and OBOB. and i hope you hang around a little more and learn a little bit each day like i do.

 

[Benedicta00]

Because Jesus said that he is the new covenant and that he makes all things new and on the cross right before His death, he said it is finished. I fail to see the relevance in Him being a practicing Jew after he rose. It was proper for Him to practice Judaism before and it was also for Mary and His apostles but at the cross, everything was finished and made new, where we were then given the New and everlasting covenant and Peter confirmed this through His vision that was given Him by God.

I think it would have been scandalous if Jesus said He was the Son of God and did not practice Judaism before His hour came, same thing with Mary., She was sinless but still obeyed the law of purification so she would not cause scandal, after all they were Jews at the time and good ones too.

 

[SamInService]

Jeshohaia,

You may be interested in this:

http://www.womenofgrace.com/conferences/speakers/Rosalind%20Bio%20Web.htm

And this: http://www.stjosephradio.org/pages/tapes/rosalind-moss.htm

If I were you, I would phone Rosalind at Catholic Answers. My hunch is that she would be more than happy to explain everything to you, from a Jewish perspective: 619-387-7200

Argh! You beat me to the punch, as I too was going to recommend Rosalind Moss. I listen to Catholic Answers Live on the radio whenever I get the chance, and I always find her comments to be particuarly illuminating, and always filled with great understanding and compassion. She may indeed be of some help with this question.

Sam

 

[Roald]

Why doesnt your church have any evidence of its Jewish Heritage?

Welcome!!!

I don't think that we don't have evidence of our Jewish heritage. I think that it depends on your prospective. If you compared Catholicism and Judaism, you will of course see many differences. However, if you look at the two practices in the context of all of the world religions, you will see that Catholicism definitely developed out of the tradition of Judaism.

Of course, Catholicism hasn't just developed as the new-and-improved version of Judaism. The Church has also deliberately attempted to construct its worship around its central Mysteries--the Trinity; the Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus; and the Eucharist. These Mysteries do not exist in Judaism, so we should expect many differences in our form of worship.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Argh! You beat me to the punch, as I too was going to recommend Rosalind Moss. I listen to Catholic Answers Live on the radio whenever I get the chance, and I always find her comments to be particuarly illuminating, and always filled with great understanding and compassion. She may indeed be of some help with this question.

Sam

I was too, but I couldn't remember her name for the life of me!


Peace in Him!

 

[jeshohaia]

This is allot to chew on.

 

[Veritas]

This is allot to chew on.

Greetings and welcome to OBOB! If you think you have a lot to chew on now....just wait

Here are some links to Hebrew Catholic sites. I think you'll find the answer to many of the questions you have. As far as why Catholics don't celebrate Jewish holidays per se, I think has to do with the fact that although the very early Church was made up of mostly Jewish believers, by the end of the 5th or 6th centuries, there were nearly an equal number of gentiles. Eventually, the Church became much more identified with gentile believers due to worldwide evangelism. Of course, I would say that the Catholic Church is the most "Jewish" Christian faith tradition there is. There is nothing more "Jewish" than the Mass.

Thanks for your questions and please visit us often. We're here to assist you in your quest for Truth.

http://www.secondexodus.com/

http://www.remnantofisrael.net/

http://www.saintjoe.com/1418150/p/prod_desc.pl?id=463

http://www.saintjoe.com/1418150/p/prod_desc.pl?id=462

God Bless!

 

[jeshohaia]

I think your question may be answered by reading Acts 15.

Hope that helps.

Rob

Well, I read Acts 15. Doesnt say anything pertaining to the feasts and rememberances. Just the Law of Moses and Circumsision. I would assume circumsision was the BIG concern. But it does tell them to abstain from certain things. Acts 15:18-21

"Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

There still is limitations as to what you eat. Polluted by idols means anything dedicated to a graven image. Goes back to Leviticus. But eating food dedicated to the LORD is not bad. That would be back then eating food that was dedicated to Athena at Athena's Temple, that was sold by the priests to her.

But no where does it tell them not to celebrate the Passover and the Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Pentacost and the Feast of Sevens and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It says the Laws of Moses and the other fun physical aspect of the Hebrews...

I would assume not everyone wishes to be circumsised (except for Abraham when G-D told him) once they realize what pain is. Thats why we do it at the age of 8 days... Or if someone converts to Judaism (not a Hebrew btw) they have to be circumsised. Meaning...you have to really want to be a Jew. Thats why you dont see a whole bunch of people jumping for joy about wanting to become a Jew.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Hey all,

Now, considering that Yeshua was a Jew, and His last meal was the Passover Sader, arent you missing aspects of the Passover in your communion which if you study the Passover Sader what Jesus did at certain times makes more sense to the diety of the Messiah?

What do you consider the aspects of the passover? I bet we could compare them to the euchristic sacrfice for you.

 

[jeshohaia]

The trinity...mmm...Jews believe in the trinity...Genesis has the first mention...usually you have mention to G-D as plural allot. And you have a mirror example of the Trinity with Abraham, ISaac and His oldest servant (which is stated earlier in Abraham's life as Eliezer <SP> of Damascus). Where Abraham tells his servant to search among his people for a bride for Isaac. Hmmm...doesnt Yeshua refer to marriage allot throughout His ministry and we are occasionaly called the Bride of Christ (I do not know what the Catholic teaching on this is so if you could help me that would be great)?

So in a way it signifies the Diety of the Father, Son (the bride groom) and the Spirit as the one who finds the bride.

And in that story...Rebekah does what we all should. Serve. She gives water to the servent and waters the camels (which is not an easy task...they drink one heck of allot of water). But she did it without question. Just as we are to serve. And look at what her reward was?

But also look as to how Isaac reacted. He fell in love with Rebekah with only seeing her at a distance. Just as Yeshua loves us.

Also look at Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac. Parallel? G-D giving His Son willingly as a sacrifice? Abraham knew what he had to do. If G-D told you when you where pushing 100 and your wife in her 90s that you would have a child and it happened would you doubt or would you fear the LORD G-D?

 

[jeshohaia]

2nd Peter 1:16-21 states " 16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." 18And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bib...ter+1:15-25&version=NKJV#footnote_968956076_2 21for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

Now you use this as example of Heresy of the Protestant Church? Right? Isnt this talking about prophecy? I look at this scripture and see it as if a man has received a Prophecy from the LORD do not keep it in as Peter and the apostles and all those that witnessed the Messiah's ministry did. Not in the interpritation of the Word of the LORD. But if you look at who G-D inspired to write the majority of the Bible (OT and NT)...they where Jews. They had and always have had 4 ways of interpriting the Bible. P'[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], Remez, Drash and Sod.

Here is my best definition in every day english.

P'[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]: Simple; Basic; Literal (Use John 3:16, Gen. 1:1 as examples where it says what it says and there is no differing interpritation of corse you could argue that)
Remez: Hint; Representations; Interpritations; Digging Deeper (Prophetic writings of Daniel and the Apostle John or the dreams of Joseph, etc)
Drash: Searching; Application goes beyond meaning. (use all of parables of Yeshua as an example of this.) Look at the parable of hmmm...lets see a good one...one that confused the desciples...John 10:1-21...Yeshua the Good Shepherd...
Sod: Kabala stuff. Mystical interpritations.
John 10:1-21
1 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." 6Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them. 7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." 19Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20And many of them said, "He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?" 21Others said, "These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"

This is where Yeshua gives the whole Drash method to the desciples. Where He gives the parable. The desciples do not understand so Jesus explains. This is Drash. Rabbi's used this frequently. And still do. And Jesus was and is a Teacher a Rabbi. He was called Rabbi frequently (including the desciple who sold Him for the slaves price). He was a Rabbi, He Taught.

Anyways, I will get back to this tomorrow. Thanks everyone for your answers and links and such.

 

[Roald]

The trinity...mmm...Jews believe in the trinity...

Do you mean that Messianic Jews believe in the Trinity? I would be surprised if I learned so late in the game that all my Jewish brothers and sisters believed in a Triune God.

 

[jeshohaia]

Yes, the trinity is a Hebrew Idea. Going back as I stated to the very begining of History in Genesis. You have to look at the Hebrew OT to know this. They have G-D plural. The Angel of the LORD refering to Him self as G-D but also refering to G-D as another entity besides Himself. Its rather confusing. But the basis is in the OT.

The majority of us were/are taught to expect the Messiah and knew of the exsistance of the Spirit. Other believe the Messiah has come and is Risen. It isnt a Christian only thing. Its a Judeo-Christian thing. Today it is really hard to explain and has led to the rise of several cults that teach very strang ideas about man being god just like G-D because they do not understand that Yeshua is G-D (not a god, but G-D), The Father is G-D, The Spirit is G-D. You have to look at some of the names the Hebrews gave to G-D. Elohim is plural in Hebrew. It refers to the trinity by being Plural.

Lets see, the translated Hebrew of this could be both Remez and P`[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] since both it is representational of the Trinity but it is also preety basic that G-D is plural.

Also the symbolism of the Trinity is in the Passover since the time of Moses when it was instituted. There are three "loaves" of flat bread. One is broken and hiden (kids go and try to find it to win a prize and the prize is the piece that they find...) So, you can see this as the Messiah, the SON of the Living G-D. He was broken for our sins and we have to seek Him to gain the prize. So, allot of the traditions lead up to the Messiah and His second coming. Its actually fun to watch the kids run around looking for the piece (it serves as an object lesson much of the Jewish teachings are done in object lessons so it is easy to remember and understand.)

Purim is a great example of an object lesson used in celebration. And the only one that is brought to us by the act of one women to save the lifes of all Jews. One person made a difference. Which goes to show us that, well, the choice of one person to make a stand for what is right and for G-Ds word can change the world.

If only we all could make a stand like Hadassah (aka Esther but it does refer to her by her Hebrew name in the book of Esther) did. Would there be anyone lacking the knowledge of the risen Messiah?

Anyways, yes...Jews believe in the Trinity.

 

[jeshohaia]

And there are two types of Messianic Jews. The ones who believe the messiah will soon be here and hasnt come yet. And those that Believe that the Messiah will soon be here again and already had come. I believe Yeshua is the Messiah. No doubt on that. All Jews should believe in the Trinity. All Hebrews should believe in G-D. And all who call them selves Christian should also do the same. Do they all? No.