I have got questions for you!!!!!!!!!

[ReformedChapin]

Yeah, its in the bible read it sometime. Romans 9.

 

[DarkNLovely]

Yeah, its in the bible read it sometime. Romans 9.

Yeah, I'm actually pretty up on Romans and......you have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! That is total misinterpretation of that scripture! I actually feel a little indignant! Did you read the WHOLE chapter as well as the chapters before and after? As a matter of fact, may I suggest reading ALL of Romans! OMAGOSH! I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to go before I lose it!

Thanks for answering my questions everybody! Bye!

 

[DD2008]

Romans 9:13-25

[13] As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
[20] But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
[22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
[23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
[24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

 

[DarkNLovely]

Romans 9:13-25

[13] As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
[20] But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
[22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
[23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
[24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

 

[Epiphoskei]

You are aware that he was only quoting the Bible, without any commetary of any kind, right? If you believe the context shows that the verse means something else, there's the context for you, go for it.

 

[DD2008]

That's what I did when I first started thinking the Calvinists were right.

It's pretty plain really. God is in control and He has a good reason for everything. So if we just trust in Him all is well.

 

[mlqurgw]

Apparently you aren't really basing your beliefs on the Bible. If you were you would recognize what the Scriptures clearly say. I have an idea that it wouldn't make a difference how many verses of Scripture we gave you with the context included, and there are more than you can imagine, you would still deny what it says. God chose Abram and called him out of Ur and left his family and friends in idolatry and condemnation. Do you deny that? He chose Jacob and hated Esau and left him in condemnation. Can you deny that? He chose the people of Israel and left all the rest of the world in darkness and death. Can you disprove that? Example after example can be given to show the sovereign electing love of God but I doubt it would convince you. I am happy to answer any questions you have but I will not debate the truth with you. You simply can't argue someone into the kingdom of God. You have quite a few presuppositions to let go before you can begin to see the truth of Scripture.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Yeah, I'm actually pretty up on Romans and......you have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! That is total misinterpretation of that scripture! I actually feel a little indignant! Did you read the WHOLE chapter as well as the chapters before and after? As a matter of fact, may I suggest reading ALL of Romans! OMAGOSH! I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to go before I lose it!

Thanks for answering my questions everybody! Bye!

Show me the proper context then. I really love to see how people try to rationalize the bible here.

 

[DarkNLovely]

Apparently you aren't really basing your beliefs on the Bible. If you were you would recognize what the Scriptures clearly say. I have an idea that it wouldn't make a difference how many verses of Scripture we gave you with the context included, and there are more than you can imagine, you would still deny what it says. God chose Abram and called him out of Ur and left his family and friends in idolatry and condemnation. Do you deny that? He chose Jacob and hated Esau and left him in condemnation. Can you deny that? He chose the people of Israel and left all the rest of the world in darkness and death. Can you disprove that? Example after example can be given to show the sovereign electing love of God but I doubt it would convince you. I am happy to answer any questions you have but I will not debate the truth with you. You simply can't argue someone into the kingdom of God. You have quite a few presuppositions to let go before you can begin to see the truth of Scripture.

Thank you anyway, ml, for your kind offer to answer my questions. I'm afraid though that for some time, I have been suffering from "Christian burnout". I am very discouraged with all the confusion in Christianity as I have read the Bible and no group makes complete sense to me, so I ask you and everyone else on this board not to take my objections as against Calvinism ALONE- as they are not and to please forgive me for my rash comments and bad temper. I'm afraid I can no longer call myself a "christian" as the dicouragement and confusion I have felt is simply to much to bear any longer. For some time, I have been contenplating leaving organized Christianity and that is just what I am doing. I am going back to the "true faith" of worshiping God alone through His holy creation known to us as Mother Nature, as it is most natural to our spirits. Thanks for all your help and may your life be filled with blessings!

Laters!

 

[ReformedChapin]

Thank you anyway, ml, for your kind offer to answer my questions. I'm afraid though that for some time, I have been suffering from "Christian burnout". I am very discouraged with all the confusion in Christianity as I have read the Bible and no group makes complete sense to me, so I ask you and everyone else on this board not to take my objections as against Calvinism ALONE- as they are not and to please forgive me for my rash comments and bad temper. I'm afraid I can no longer call myself a "christian" as the dicouragement and confusion I have felt is simply to much to bear any longer. For some time, I have been contenplating leaving organized Christianity and that is just what I am doing. I am going back to the "true faith" of worshiping God alone through His holy creation known to us as Mother Nature, as it is most natural to our spirits. Thanks for all your help and may your life be filled with blessings!

Laters!

This saddens me. You are on a one way ticket to hell. I urge you to repent.

 

[DarkNLovely]

Show me the proper context then. I really love to see how people try to rationalize the bible here.

Hello RC! It is no longer of any importance, but I would like to thank you for all you help. Please forgive the rash tone I took with you as too often these things get so heated and I forgot the real purpose that I posted here; to LEARN about the Reformed Faith. In all honesty while I am not a predestinationist, I do see lots of beauty in your faith and I know for a fact that a close relative of mine, after many years a bonafied sinner, has found a home in a Primitive Baptist church that holds to Calvinistic teachings. A great thing I have found is your love of truth and accuracy believe me, not all Protestants these days hold to. In my experience so far, both you and the Lutherans have all other Protestants beat in that regard. May The Great God bless you! Laters!

 

[ReformedChapin]

Hello RC! It is no longer of any importance, but I would like to thank you for all you help. Please forgive the rash tone I took with you as too often these things get so heated and I forgot the real purpose that I posted here; to LEARN about the Reformed Faith. In all honesty while I am not a predestinationist, I do see lots of beauty in your faith and I know for a fact that a close relative of mine, after many years a bonafied sinner, has found a home in a Primitive Baptist church that holds to Calvinistic teachings. A great thing I have found is your love of truth and accuracy believe me, not all Protestants these days hold to. In my experience so far, both you and the Lutherans have all other Protestants beat in that regard. May The Great God bless you! Laters!

take care.

 

[DarkNLovely]

This saddens me. You are on a one way ticket to hell. I urge you to repent.

I'm afraid I don't really believe in Hell, at least not how most of Christian theology describe it but it really it doesn't matter as I am still serving God. I really don't want to start trouble so I'll only stick asking a questions and if it even seems like I am becoming cobative, please stop me, as I would really like us all to be friends here and get along.

Now, what is your position on Holloween? Growing up a lot of more conservative families don't celebrate it and I know Calvinists, particularly Baptists are definately conservative. Is there any official stance?

Are any of your churches liturgical?

How do you view the Eucharist?

Thanks!

 

[ReformedChapin]

I'm afraid I don't really believe in Hell, at least not how most of Christian theology describe it but it really it doesn't matter as I am still serving God. I really don't want to start trouble so I'll only stick asking a questions and if it even seems like I am becoming cobative, please stop me, as I would really like us all to be friends here and get along.

Now, what is your position on Holloween? Growing up a lot of more conservative families don't celebrate it and I know Calvinists, particularly Baptists are definately conservative. Is there any official stance?

Are any of your churches liturgical?

How do you view the Eucharist?

Thanks!

The halloween question varies a lot in Christian circles. I personally think its a dumb holiday and I would rather be doing something else than dressing like dracula but I dont think there is anything wrong with the holiday itself. But some conservative calvinist like baptist my view it as a pagan holiday.

Presbyterian Churches are liturgical.

Presbyterians view Eucharist as a spiritual presence of Christ most baptist see it as a memorial view.

 

[DD2008]

Thank you anyway, ml, for your kind offer to answer my questions. I'm afraid though that for some time, I have been suffering from "Christian burnout". I am very discouraged with all the confusion in Christianity as I have read the Bible and no group makes complete sense to me, so I ask you and everyone else on this board not to take my objections as against Calvinism ALONE- as they are not and to please forgive me for my rash comments and bad temper. I'm afraid I can no longer call myself a "christian" as the dicouragement and confusion I have felt is simply to much to bear any longer. For some time, I have been contenplating leaving organized Christianity and that is just what I am doing. I am going back to the "true faith" of worshiping God alone through His holy creation known to us as Mother Nature, as it is most natural to our spirits. Thanks for all your help and may your life be filled with blessings!

Laters!

I'm sorry you're feeling confusion, and I pray that your mind will be put at ease.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. 1Timothy 3:15

The truth that it is supporting is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is recorded in scripture by the Apostles and handed down to us through the Church. Our creeds are just a summary of this.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.


Just because people throughout the Church disagree on the details doesn't mean that the essential truth of the gospel isn't present throughout.

I'll pray that you can come to terms with the Creator and feel comfortable within the mold of the created. I wish you the best.

Numbers 6:24-26

[24] The LORD bless you and keep you:
[25] The LORD make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you:
[26] The LORD lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.

 

[mlqurgw]

Thank you anyway, ml, for your kind offer to answer my questions. I'm afraid though that for some time, I have been suffering from "Christian burnout". I am very discouraged with all the confusion in Christianity as I have read the Bible and no group makes complete sense to me, so I ask you and everyone else on this board not to take my objections as against Calvinism ALONE- as they are not and to please forgive me for my rash comments and bad temper. I'm afraid I can no longer call myself a "christian" as the dicouragement and confusion I have felt is simply to much to bear any longer. For some time, I have been contenplating leaving organized Christianity and that is just what I am doing. I am going back to the "true faith" of worshiping God alone through His holy creation known to us as Mother Nature, as it is most natural to our spirits. Thanks for all your help and may your life be filled with blessings!

Laters!

Praying that the sovereign Lord of all opens your heart to His Christ, His Word and His Way.

 

[DarkNLovely]

OK, next question and maybe you can help me as its something I don't have quite figured out. Do you guys believ in the "headship order" as in the husbands love and honor their wives and the wives submit to their husbands and how do you define that? I mean what IS submission? Its curious to me as really most Christians don't seem to define it really. What do you think?

 

[DD2008]

OK, next question and maybe you can help me as its something I don't have quite figured out. Do you guys believ in the "headship order" as in the husbands love and honor their wives and the wives submit to their husbands and how do you define that? I mean what IS submission? Its curious to me as really most Christians don't seem to define it really. What do you think?

I'm married. Our houshold is equal partnership. I also believe that women can be ordained into the ministry.

 

[DarkNLovely]

I'm married. Our houshold is equal partnership. I also believe that women can be ordained into the ministry.

Ok, so from your perspective, what is being equal? Do you make decisions together, share households duties equally and that? I was always of the assumption that at least one partner was more dominant, usually the woman. I unfortunately don't have a good example to learn from (loooooooooong story) and as I read and talk to more people, I have found that my view is often skewed so I ask a lot of questions. I think too,that the reason so many housholds are egalatrian is because I have no real idea what Biblical submission is. People back in the day, even Luther and Calvins day, seemed to have it down, but it evades me. *shrugs*

 

[DD2008]

Ok, so from your perspective, what is being equal? Do you make decisions together, share households duties equally and that? I was always of the assumption that at least one partner was more dominant, usually the woman. I unfortunately don't have a good example to learn from (loooooooooong story) and as I read and talk to more people, I have found that my view is often skewed so I ask a lot of questions. I think too,that the reason so many housholds are egalatrian is because I have no real idea what Biblical submission is. People back in the day, even Luther and Calvins day, seemed to have it down, but it evades me. *shrugs*

We make decisions together, if there is a decision that needs to be made together. If it's trivial then whoever is faced with the decision first makes it. We're a team of equals.

As far as the situation you asked about:

Women are the physically weaker sex (usually ) So throughout history they have been subjugated and made to obey. These things influence cultures and get ingrained into society. Many of the things we read in scripture reflect this. However it is clear that in many parts of scripture we see women in leadership roles, Deborah, the women of the NT...etc. I think Paul's writings reflect the society at the time.

To paraphrase bluntly; "We don't want to look weak and foolish and run off all the new converts so it is disgraceful to have a woman in charge of the church." "Keep the loud mouthed women from gossiping during church! Women should be silent in Church...etc" "Wives should do what their husbands need them to do to help the houshold cause since their husbands are the ones financing the household, husbands love your wives like Christ loves the Church" "Women are weaker than men because man was made in the image of God and woman was made in the image of man"

Somehow all this was translated into: Women are a lesser creature than man and should be ruled over by man lest they go into error. So, that's basically what happened. Only recently has western culture started to understand that women are just as capable as men in intellect and leadership roles.