I have an idea VictorC...

[k4c]

VictorC; I have a pretty good idea what you believe already. The problem is that when a passage of Scripture doesn't support that belief, you abandon it and fetch unrelated verses from anywhere that you use to "disprove" the first passage. Abandoning passages as you do leaves huge holes in your comprehension of the Gospel you have nothing to fill with.

I have to give you credit you sure know how to twist, put words in people's mouth and tell people they believe when they don't even believe what you say. You sure are gifted.

Both of us believe we can disobey the ten commandments, and you have already shown your "obedience" to be no more compliant than mine.

This is exactly what I mean. I never said we CAN disobey the Ten Commandments, as though it's okay, even though we do break them. You really have to read the whole Bible to understand God's will for His people.

The disparity is the fascinating gymnastics you go through in order to rationalize this away, and I have no need to appeal to delusionary tactics. God has "committed them all to disobedience" as a condition to extend His mercy, and "all" doesn't exclude anyone. The qualification of "because" falls outside your purview, but you would rather speculate rather than accept God's final conclusion. You have not come to realize that God didn't give you an option to contest His final determination of disobedience to the first covenant you're committed to promoting.

Amen...we are all counted as disobedient, this levels the playing field and makes us all equal having the same opportunity to freely come to God. But the fact that we are all counted as disobedient does not mean we continue in disobedience. Unbelief, a lack of faith, as well as, committing adultery, lying, stealing, forgetting the Sabbath and so on are all part of disobedience so do we continue on this path because we are all counted as disobedient?

Listen to what God says, you do still believe in God don't you?

Romans 6:19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

 

[VictorC]

I have to give you credit you sure know how to twist, put words in people's mouth and tell people they believe when they don't even believe what you say. You sure are gifted.

Since the employment of half-truths was done by you, I believe you should re-read the post I wrote addressing that.

I can teach, using only half Scriptures, that Jesus is only a man....

Until you work these verses into your faith and understand what it means to be not be under the Law in light of the new testament as a whole you will only have half truth and we all know how Satan loves half truths.

This is a curious point. Let's see where this goes.

The Law on stone under the old covenant dealt with the outward actions of man. As long as these principles remain on stone they will always bring death because the outward man must die and die daily. But under the new covenant the principles portrayed on stone will be written in the heart and will bring joy and wholeness and will manifest outwardly in of lives as love for God and love for mankind. Those who have been born again will hunger and thirst for the principles of God's Law as a newborn baby.

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Your continuous appeal has been to Hebrews 8:10 and/or Jeremiah 31:33. Yet you violate the context when these passages specify that God's "My law" given to us in the new covenant isn't according to Sinai.

Hebrews 8
6 ¶ But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -
9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

• God promised a better covenant, v.6.
• The first covenant was considered faulty, the reason for a new covenant, v.7.
• The reason the first covenant was faulty was that it was violated by the recipients, and God determined to replace it, v.8.
• The new covenant would not be according to the one given at Mount Sinai, v.9.
• God promised to write His "My law" into us, v.10 - and remember it isn't according to Sinai.
• The presence of God's "My law" is a personal knowledge of Him, that is, we know the Creator, and not the created law, v.11.
• God promised to forget our sins and transgressions, v.12.
• The new covenant makes the first covenant obsolete, v.13.

The moment you claimed that the "principles" on tables of stone were transferred into your heart, you violated this passage where it specifies God's "My law" wasn't from those tables of stone handed to Moses at Mount Sinai. Furthermore, you ignored the result of God's "My law" giving us a personal knowledge of the Creator of the created law, indicating that God's "My law" isn't a written set of ordinances at all. When God refers to "My law" with a possessive pronoun, it draws attention to the Entity that God is subject to: Himself.

And, the King is not subject to the law He created. This is what Jesus taught Peter in Matthew 17:24-26.

When God made a new covenant, the first covenant written on tables of stone was made obsolete. It was not transferred, but rather taken away: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).

Commandments are always external, and never internalized where they appear in Scripture. The entire reason you keep referring to the ten commandments is because you need to draw attention to an external code of conduct which was given in the tenor of comply or die, and it isn't written inside anyone. We know God. Not the former law He took away in order to establish the new covenant unlike the first covenant from Mount Sinai.

Until you work these verses into your faith and understand what it means to be not be under the Law in light of the new testament as a whole you will only have half truth and we all know how Satan loves half truths.

You have been caught teaching a half-truth because you ignored the context a pet verse was extracted from, which doesn't convey the meaning you imposed on it in the first place. And, we know how satan loves half-truths according to your own claim. This implies your inspiration comes from satan, and is somewhat telling when you claim that the ten commandments were written into your heart, only to have God rip them out when He took them away to establish the new covenant. This has left you with an empty heart searching for half-truths to fill it.

Matthew 12:37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

This is exactly what I mean. I never said we CAN disobey the Ten Commandments, as though it's okay, even though we do break them. You really have to read the whole Bible to understand God's will for His people.

You break them, and yet it isn't okay to break them? Did you forget that you claimed to violate the sabbath every week earlier in this thread?
The law does not have a provision to forgive transgressions, and demands atonement by blood for your infractions. Your conclusion stated in contradiction to your practice tells me that you haven't been redeemed as God's purchased possession. It is plain you do not know God's will that sent Jesus Christ to the cross.

Amen...we are all counted as disobedient, this levels the playing field and makes us all equal having the same opportunity to freely come to God. But the fact that we are all counted as disobedient does not mean we continue in disobedience. Unbelief, a lack of faith, as well as, committing adultery, lying, stealing, forgetting the Sabbath and so on are all part of disobedience so do we continue on this path because we are all counted as disobedient?

You forgot the sabbath, remember? You don't keep it holy, and that is a transgression of the first covenant. It is also a devotion to a ceremonial law that Adventism claims was done away with, and has no relation to God's commandment (external, not internalized) to love one another. Your whole appeal is to a code that tells us to do no evil to another, and your whole motive is to "keep" a sabbath you don't keep yourself and isn't a moral imperative.

Listen to what God says, you do still believe in God don't you?

Asking me such a rhetorical question doesn't deflect your disbelief in God's Word explaining how we have entered into His rest. Your devotion is to the sabbath that was called a shadow, and a component of the first covenant God took away with His hand when He established the new covenant in His Blood.

 

[k4c]

Since the employment of half-truths was done by you, I believe you should re-read the post I wrote addressing that.


You break them, and yet it isn't okay to break them? Did you forget that you claimed to violate the sabbath every week earlier in this thread?
The law does not have a provision to forgive transgressions, and demands atonement by blood for your infractions. Your conclusion stated in contradiction to your practice tells me that you haven't been redeemed as God's purchased possession. It is plain you do not know God's will that sent Jesus Christ to the cross.

You forgot the sabbath, remember? You don't keep it holy, and that is a transgression of the first covenant. It is also a devotion to a ceremonial law that Adventism claims was done away with, and has no relation to God's commandment (external, not internalized) to love one another. Your whole appeal is to a code that tells us to do no evil to another, and your whole motive is to "keep" a sabbath you don't keep yourself and isn't a moral imperative.

Asking me such a rhetorical question doesn't deflect your disbelief in God's Word explaining how we have entered into His rest. Your devotion is to the sabbath that was called a shadow, and a component of the first covenant God took away with His hand when He established the new covenant in His Blood.

We just go round and round...I think you need a triple head slapper...

 

[VictorC]

We just go round and round...I think you need a triple head slapper...

I don't need anything that you have to offer thus far.
Suit your own emotional needs without resorting to personal attacks.

 

[Adventtruth]

I admitted the truth that God's Law is eternal. .....

The bible proves you are wrong about the law being eternal. Eternal is without a starting point or a ending point. THe following verse clearly shows the law had a beginning.

(Gal 3:19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The bible proves you are wrong about the law being eternal. Eternal is without a starting point or a ending point. THe following verse clearly shows the law had a beginning.

(Gal 3:19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Great point! If I could build on this point, I would add that sabbatarians agree that the sabbath law had a starting point. Although we may disagree as to the date upon which it began, all of us seem to agree that there were no sabbath laws on Day 6 of creation week.

Add to this the fact that most SDAs agree that laws relating to all holy convocations (with only one notable exception) have come to an end. They believe this even though they know that not one jot or tittle can pass from the law until ALL has been accomplished.

This leads me to two important conclusions:

1. That which has a beginning cannot be eternal.

2. Either all of the old covenant laws have ended or none of them have.
​

BFA

 

[k4c]

The bible proves you are wrong about the law being eternal. Eternal is without a starting point or a ending point. THe following verse clearly shows the law had a beginning.

(Gal 3:19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The Law on stone was added but the words contained within the Law are from the mind of God and reveal His will even before Sinai. To add to this, eternal can have a begining without an end. Your temporary life that had a begining can receive eternal life, which is a life without end.

 

[k4c]

I don't need anything that you have to offer thus far.
Suit your own emotional needs without resorting to personal attacks.

 

[Adventtruth]

The Law on stone was added but the words contained within the Law are from the mind of God and reveal His will even before Sinai.

As too was grass on the earth in the mind of God before it was really on the earth, but it dies out once a year. So whats that got to do with the argument....not a thing. We wont call grass eternal, and the bible never calls the law eternal. You are flat out wrong.

To add to this, eternal can have a beginning without an end. Your temporary life that had a begining can receive eternal life, which is a life without end.

You have correctly said RECEIVE eternal life which means I am not eternal. Only God is eternal....not you...not me...not the law...My life is not my life...it is Christ Eternal life within me....never forget that young man. I enter into eternity. Eternal does not, and can not rely on anything for its being but its self. What is eternal is of its self and always has been and always will be...without starting point or ending point.

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


AT

 

[Kira Light]

We just go round and round...I think you need a triple head slapper...

Part of why it goes round and round for eternity is the SDA belief system in which: You do not need to keep the law to be saved, but if you are saved YOU WILL KEEP THE LAW (or else)!!! It is complete and total double-speak. The very definition of having it both ways.

 

[VictorC]

The Law on stone was added but the words contained within the Law are from the mind of God and reveal His will even before Sinai. To add to this, eternal can have a begining without an end. Your temporary life that had a begining can receive eternal life, which is a life without end.

Do you think speculation without support for a pre-origin of the law's origin 430 years after God's promise was given to Abraham is going to make your speculation come true? Do you think that comparing God's promise of eternal life to those He redeemed from the first covenant is going to support a thesis you cannot support from Scripture?

No, speculation of this nature comes from wanting Scripture to say something it doesn't. That's the very reason you don't offer any support for the concept of an eternal law that imputes sin eternally for transgressions to it.

Romans 4:13-15
For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

1 Timothy 1:15 tells us "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief". The legal solution provided by God's redemption is clear in Romans 5:13 where it states "sin is not imputed when there is no law".
But it seems your contention that this isn't true, since you contend that the law is eternal and will forever impute sin to everyone under it and salvation for the Gentiles is a myth. Redemption from the law doesn't exist in Adventist theology, am I right?
And yet the only support you can provide for such contention is speculation.

 

[k4c]

VictorC; Do you think speculation without support for a pre-origin of the law's origin 430 years after God's promise was given to Abraham is going to make your speculation come true? Do you think that comparing God's promise of eternal life to those He redeemed from the first covenant is going to support a thesis you cannot support from Scripture?

No, speculation of this nature comes from wanting Scripture to say something it doesn't. That's the very reason you don't offer any support for the concept of an eternal law that imputes sin eternally for transgressions to it.

Romans 4:13-15
For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

1 Timothy 1:15 tells us "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief". The legal solution provided by God's redemption is clear in Romans 5:13 where it states "sin is not imputed when there is no law".
But it seems your contention that this isn't true, since you contend that the law is eternal and will forever impute sin to everyone under it and salvation for the Gentiles is a myth. Redemption from the law doesn't exist in Adventist theology, am I right?
And yet the only support you can provide for such contention is speculation.

So no one was guilty for breaking God's Law prior to sinai? Hmmmm!

The Law defines love, God is love, God is eternal, the principles contained in God's law define love.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

 

[VictorC]

So no one was guilty for breaking God's Law prior to sinai? Hmmmm!

The Law defines love, God is love, God is eternal, the principles contained in God's law define love.

More speculation with nothing to support your contention in deference to Hebrews 7:12 statement the law was changed, 7:18 the law was anulled, 8:13 obsolete, and 10:9 taken away? No doubt the reason you don't attempt to support the speculation you present.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

All this does is determine yourself unjustified, as this verse describes the condition that existed prior to the new covenant.

And you still haven't responded to the post:

Do you know that salvation is of the Jews...I guess that leaves us out. Oh but wait, God has made a people of all nations who are circumsied of the heart ie: spiritual Jews. This is probably over your head but if you seek God in your study time He will show you.

You merely affirm a conclusion you've arrived at that the only means to call on the Lord is to abandon Christianity and seek the means dictated under the covenant mediated by Moses, before the Spirit of God's adoption was given.

Scripture testifies otherwise:

Hebrews 7
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[k4c]

VictorC; More speculation with nothing to support your contention in deference to Hebrews 7:12 statement the law was changed, 7:18 the law was anulled, 8:13 obsolete, and 10:9 taken away? No doubt the reason you don't attempt to support the speculation you present.

Psalms 111:7-8 All He does is just and good, and all His laws are right, for they are formed from truth and goodness, and stand firm forever.

 

[VictorC]

Psalms 111:7-8 All He does is just and good, and all His laws are right, for they are formed from truth and goodness, and stand firm forever.

This doesn't change God's determination to change, anull, pronounce obsolete, and take away the ministry of death, written and engraved on tables of stone. You don't affirm the truth that does last forever, choosing instead to resort to a sound bite wholly unable to address the context of Hebrews 7-10.

And you still haven't responded to this post:

Do you know that salvation is of the Jews...I guess that leaves us out. Oh but wait, God has made a people of all nations who are circumsied of the heart ie: spiritual Jews. This is probably over your head but if you seek God in your study time He will show you.

You merely affirm a conclusion you've arrived at that the only means to call on the Lord is to abandon Christianity and seek the means dictated under the covenant mediated by Moses, before the Spirit of God's adoption was given.

Scripture testifies otherwise:

Hebrews 7
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[VictorC]

So no one was guilty for breaking God's Law prior to sinai? Hmmmm!

How is it that you fabricate this nonsense and then abandon your premise contradictory to Scripture with no expectation of accountability?

 

[k4c]

How is it that you fabricate this nonsense and then abandon your premise contradictory to Scripture with no expectation of accountability?

Do you ever read verses outside of the ones you use to justify your belief system?

Let me give you some examples of sin before Sinai.

Cain was about to murder his brother when God idenitified Cains act. Listen to what God calls Cain's soon to be act of murder.

Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.''

How about the sexual sins of Sodom?

Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave.

Joseph was being tempted by Pharaoh's wife when Joseph made this statement.

Genesis 39:9 "There is no one greater in this house than I, nor has he kept back anything from me but you, because you are his wife. How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?''

You can't forget the serpant who was a murder and a liar from the beginning.

Need I say any more?

 

[VictorC]

So no one was guilty for breaking God's Law prior to sinai? Hmmmm!

How is it that you fabricate this nonsense and then abandon your premise contradictory to Scripture with no expectation of accountability?

Let me give you some examples of sin before Sinai.

Your assertion was not concerning sin. We already know the origin of sin before the law mediated by Moses existed, but you claimed the law existed before Sinai.

Need I say any more?

You can either come up with an origin for the law outside of Moses, or honestly concede the error you presented.

John 1:17 contrasts the origin of grace apart from the law, and attributes the origin of the law directly to Moses: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ".

 

[k4c]

VictorC; How is it that you fabricate this nonsense and then abandon your premise contradictory to Scripture with no expectation of accountability? Your assertion was not concerning sin. We already know the origin of sin before the law mediated by Moses existed, but you claimed the law existed before Sinai.

.........

You can either come up with an origin for the law outside of Moses, or honestly concede the error you presented.

John 1:17 contrasts the origin of grace apart from the law, and attributes the origin of the law directly to Moses: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ".

..........

Since you don't hear a word God says I have to reply with these...

 

[VictorC]

You can either come up with an origin for the law outside of Moses, or honestly concede the error you presented.

John 1:17 contrasts the origin of grace apart from the law, and attributes the origin of the law directly to Moses: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ".

.........
..........
Since you don't hear a word God says I have to reply with these...

Cute faces are all the content you seem able to provide.