I have a question?

[mva1985]

Hey, we exclude no one. We love all our brothers and sisters.

I do appreciate that.

 

[sentipente]

Hey, somebody has to demonstrate the spirit of Christ.

 

[StormyOne]

oops.... sorry i didn't mean to post in the progressive forum. i got carried away.

everyone is welcome here.... anything can be discussed here... so no apology needed...

 

[mva1985]

Thanks guys !!!

 

[djconklin]

We even had a hymn last Sabbath that was anti-trinitarrian.

Which hymn?

 

[djconklin]

I have worked a little bit with picture files, and when you alter the appearance it can cause some distortion.

If you have a poor program and are working with pictures, then yes, you can get some distortion. But, we are talking about a text file format. And we still have no evidence to claim that there ever was a distortion in the first place.

 

[JonMiller]

Which hymn?

Had in the last verse something about the one who is above the others and supreme or something.

JM

 

[daro2096]

The Bible does teach the Godhead doctrine. God is three persons in one otherwise Jesus is praying to himself in the Gospels.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17

At the baptism of Jesus you have the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father all in the same place. Clearly the Bible teaches there are three persons in the Godhead.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

One as in if you asked the Son a question and the Holy Spirit answered it would be the same answer because all three are one in agreement.

The angels in heaven are singing holy, holy, holy all the time.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

T
At the baptism of Jesus you have the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father all in the same place. Clearly the Bible teaches there are three persons in the Godhead.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

One as in if you asked the Son a question and the Holy Spirit answered it would be the same answer because all three are one in agreement.

The principle of the trinity is that the Godhead is of one substance not merely that they agree. Second you have quoted a verse which does not exist until the 1500's

The Comma Johanneum is a comma, or short clause, present in most translations of the First Epistle of John published from 1522 until the latter part of the nineteenth century, owing to the widespread use of the third edition of the Textus Receptus (TR) as the sole source for translation. In readings containing the clause, such as this one from the King James Bible, 1 John 5:7–8 reads as follows, the Comma itself here rendered with emphasis:
5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." The resulting passage is an explicit reference to the Trinity (the doctrine that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God), and for this reason some Christians are resistant to the elimination of the Comma from modern Biblical translations. Nonetheless, nearly all recent translations have removed this clause, as it does not appear in older copies of the Epistle and it is not present in the passage as quoted by any of the early Church Fathers, who would have had plenty of reason to quote it in their Trinitarian debates (for example, with the Arians), had it existed then. Most Churches now agree that the theology contained in the Comma is true, but that the Comma is not an original part of the Epistle of John.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

 

[daro2096]

The principle of the trinity is that the Godhead is of one substance not merely that they agree. Second you have quoted a verse which does not exist until the 1500's

1 John 5:7 existed before the 15th century. The verse is quoted in letters as old as the 2nd century. Just because the older manuscripts don't contain the verse doesn't mean it isn't part of the epistle. It could be the older manuscripts are corrupted afterall one of them was found in the waste paper basket.

 

[GuardianShua]

The Bible does teach the Godhead doctrine. God is three persons in one otherwise Jesus is praying to himself in the Gospels.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16-17

At the baptism of Jesus you have the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father all in the same place. Clearly the Bible teaches there are three persons in the Godhead.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

One as in if you asked the Son a question and the Holy Spirit answered it would be the same answer because all three are one in agreement.

The angels in heaven are singing holy, holy, holy all the time.

1 John 5:6. This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7. For there are three that testify: 8. the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement./// God our Father is a Spirit and He is Holy. It is our Father who testifies. Throughout scripture we are told that God is a Spirit and that He is Holy. The bible also says that He is the Spirit of Amen (Truth). The 1 John 5:6 quote I gave is hundreds of years older than the Vatican quote you gave. Thats why Im always saying that our scripture has been changed, to prove trinitarism as a bible truth. The word Vatican is a compound word, meaning prophetic serpent.

 

[daro2096]

http://www.geocities.com/johnthebaptisthenry/KJVIssues/1John57.html


OLD LATIN MANUSCRIPTS EVIDENCE: The "three heavenly Witnesses" is contained in practically all of the extant Latin Vulgate MSS. Although not included in Jerome's original edition, around the year 800 it was taken into the text of the Vulgate from the Old Latin MSS. (Hills, Jones) This historic usage of the text in the Western Church lay behind its final inclusion in the Greek Text of Erasmus. Here is 1 John 5:7-8 in Latin: "Quoniam tres sunt, gui testimonium dant in coelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt. Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra: Spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis: et hi tres unum sunt."
1) Included in the 2nd century Old Latin Bible.
2) Old Latin MS r has the verse (AD 550).
3) Old Latin MS l has the verse.
4) Latin Vulgate from AD 800 on.
GREEK MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE: There are at least 10 confirmed Greek MSS that contain the Comma.
1) 61 (late 15th century) (Aland's Text, 3rd edition, p. 824)
2) 629 (14th century) (Aland's, 3rd ed., p. 824)
3) 918 (Aland's; 3rd ed., p. 824)
4) 221 (Listed by Dr. D.A. Waite; Aland's, 3rd ed., p. 824)
5) 2318 (Listed by Dr. D.A. Waite; Aland's, 3rd ed., p. 824)
6) 634 (Listed as confirmed by Dr. D.A. Waite)
7) 636, margin (Aland's, 3rd ed., p. 824)
8) 88, margin, Codex Ravianus, 12th century (Aland's, 3rd ed., p. 824)
9) 429, margin (Aland's, 3rd ed., p. 824)
10) Omega 110 (Listed as confirmed by Dr. D.A. Waite)
11) 635, margin (Holland)
12) Codex Wizanburgensis (8th century) (Cloud)
13) Dr. Waite lists 10 other Greek MSS that are unconfirmed as yet.
GREEK LECTIONARIES (These contained extracts of the New Testanent):
1) Lectionary 60
2) Lectionary 173
WRITINGS AND CITATIONS BY CHURCH FATHERS AND OTHERS:
1) AD 170 - Old Syriac Version (G.A. Riplinger, p. 381)
2) AD 200 - Tertullian quotes the verse (Gill, "An exposition of the NT", Vol 2, pp. 907-8)
3) AD 250 - Cyprian, who writes, "And again concerning the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'and the Three are One'" (Vienna, vol. iii, p. 215)
4) AD 385 - Priscillian cites the verse (Vienna, vol. xviii, p. 6)
5) AD 350 - Idacius Clarus cites the verse (MPL, vol. 62, col. 359)
6) AD 350 - Athanasius cites the verse (Gill)
7) AD 380 - Varimadum
8) AD 435 - Cassian
9) AD 427 - The Speculum, MS m, a treatise containing an Old Latin texts arranged by topic.
10) Sixth century - Ps-Athanasius
11) Eighth century - Ansbert
12) AD 750 - Wianburgensis cites the verse
13) 1200-1400 - Waldensian Bibles have the verse
HISTORICAL EVIDENCE


1) The Waldenses (AD 120 on) of Northern Italy who protected the Old Latin or Italic Bible (AD 157) with their lives. These had the earliest of connections with the church in Asia Minor and Syria, and could easily verify their translation with the Received Text of those churches. (Which Bible, pp. 194-215) The "Comma" is in their Bibles. After an honest study of the history of the Waldenses it cannot be denied that they were the people of God. Their Apostolic connection, their doctrinal beliefs, their evangelization of Europe, and their stand for the Truth in the face of the greatest of persecution are all traits and proof that they were the true church of God in those dark days. They earnestly contended for the Faith, including 1 John 1:9. They translated the Word from their Latin Bibles into Gallic, Flimish, German, and other languages. (Armitage)

 

[daro2096]

http://www.geocities.com/johnthebaptisthenry/KJVIssues/1John57.html

EVALUATION OF EVIDENCE FOR THE COMMA



After examining 1) the Latin and Greek manuscript evidence, 2) the citations and documentation by the church fathers and others, 3) the grammatical evidence and 4) the doctrinal evidence we should be able to come to a logical conclusion. Let's put the evidence to the "Tests of Truth for New Testament Criticism".
1) Antiquity: We have the testiomon of the Old Latin Version as early as AD 157, Tertullian around AD 200, Cyprian around AD 250, and on the Greek side Codex Wizanburgensis from the 8th century, and 88 from the twelfth century. The Comma passes this test.
2) Consent of Witnesses: There is consent Latin witness throughout history, as well as several Greek witnesses. Pass.
3) Variety of Evidence: There are various witnesses (i.e. MSS, versions, Fathers, lectionaries, etc.) from a virity of locations (N. Africa, Italy, Asia) which qualifies the Comma.
4) Respectability of Witnesses, or Weight: Tertullian, the Waldenses, Cyprian, and the orthodox African writers are all credible. Pass.
5) Continuity, or Unbroken Tradition: The reading appears consistently throughout history from AD 150 to 1500. Pass.
6) Credibility of Opposing Evidence: The manuscripts, circumstances and many of the people of the opposing side are suspicious or not credible altogether. 1 John 5:7 passes again.
7) Internal Considerations, or Reasonableness: The elementary Greek grammar is deficient without 1 John 5:7, and fundamental Bible doctrines suffer without it. The so called Comma passes again!
CONCLUSION



"Finally, it cannot be overly stressed that the successive editors of the TR could have omitted the passage from their editions. The fact that Stephens, Beza, and the Elzevirs retained the Pericope, despite the reluctance of Erasmus to include it, is not without significance. The learned Lutheran text critic J.A. Bengel ("Gnomon", published in 1742) also convincingly defended its inclusion as did Hills in this century. The hard fact is that, by the providence of God, the Johannie comma obtained and retained a place in the Textus Receptus. We emphatically declare that the most extreme caution should be exercised in questioning its right to that place." (Jones) "Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set." (Proverbs 22:28)
REFERENCES FOR ABOVE WORK



http://www.mindspring.com/~kjb1611/html/holland.htm
http://jesus-is-lord.com/kjvdefen.htm
http://homepage.netspaceonline.com/~amigatec/which/toc.html
http://homepage.netspaceonline.com/~amigatec/chapel/1john5_7.html
http://biz.ukonline.co.uk/trinitarian.bible.society/contents.htm
RECOMMENDED SITES ON THE SUBJECT



Compare these verses:
http://biz.ukonline.co.uk/trinitarian.bible.society/articles/tk.htm
http://www.aloha.net/~bstaggs/kjb.html
Scientist, Henry M. Morris, and the KJV:
http://www.icr.org/bible/kjv.htm
MSS Charts:
Reliable Texts: http://www.hutch.com.au/~rlister/bible/bibtb2.gif
Corrupted Texts:
http://www.hutch.com.au/~rlister/bible/bibtb1.gif
Sites on the KJV issue:
http://www.hutch.com.au/~rlister/bible.htm
http://www.mindspring.com/~kjb1611/html/holland.htm
http://jesus-is-lord.com/kjvdefen.htm
First John 5:7:
http://jesus-is-lord.com/1john57.htm
http://homepage.netspaceonline.com/~amigatec/which/appendix-B.html
Acts 12:4 - Easter:
http://www.hutch.com.au/~rlister/wh/wh.htmpp
http://www.aloha.net/~bstaggs/kjb.html Westcott and Hort:
http://jesus-is-lord.com/hort.htm
http://www.hutch.com.au/~rlister/wh/wh.htmpp

 

[GuardianShua]

Footnotes: From N.I.V.

1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century) Also the scripture yuo quoted came later.

 

[daro2096]

1) The Waldenses (AD 120 on) of Northern Italy who protected the Old Latin or Italic Bible (AD 157) with their lives.

The Waldenses Bible the Italic Bible quotes 1 John 5:7 as in the KJV and that Bible was translated from greek texts not the latin vulgate. The Italic Bible dates from 157AD.

 

[daro2096]

I know what the NIV says. The NASB and the ESV say the same thing. Doesn't mean they are right.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

No it is not found in any Greek Manuscripts. until the 1500's.

The External Support: Although not found in most Greek manuscripts, the Johannine Comma is found in several. It is contained in 629 (fourteenth century), 61 (sixteenth century), 918 (sixteenth century), 2473 (seventeenth century), and 2318 (eighteenth century). It is also in the margins of 221 (tenth century), 635 (eleventh century), 88 (twelveth century), 429 (fourteenth century), and 636 (fifteenth century). There are about five hundred existing manuscripts of 1 John chapter five that do not contain the Comma. [2] It is clear that the reading found in the Textus Receptus is the minority reading with later textual support from the Greek witnesses. Nevertheless, being a minority reading does not eliminate it as genuine. The Critical Text considers the reading Iesou (of Jesus) to be the genuine reading instead of Iesou Christou (of Jesus Christ) in 1 John 1:7. Yet Iesou is the minority reading with only twenty-four manuscripts supporting it, while four hundred seventy-seven manuscripts support the reading Iesou Christou found in the Textus Receptus. Likewise, in 1 John 2:20 the minority reading pantes (all) has only twelve manuscripts supporting it, while the majority reading is panta (all things) has four hundred ninety-one manuscripts. Still, the Critical Text favors the minority reading over the majority in that passage. This is common place throughout the First Epistle of John, and the New Testament as a whole. Therefore, simply because a reading is in the minority does not eliminate it as being considered original. http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_1jo5_7.html

Granted there has been corruption of the texts, both in Greek and Hebrew. But the best sources we have of the Greek Text, the oldest sources do not have the statement. Further it is the consensus of most scholars and Bible translators that it is not part of the book of 1 John. All kinds of things were said by different people in the early centuries but that does not make them reasonable assertions into the New Testament.

You are certainly free to believe whatever you want but there is a reason why people do not try to base doctrines upon disputed texts.

 

[GuardianShua]

No it is not found in any Greek Manuscripts. until the 1500's.



Granted there has been corruption of the texts, both in Greek and Hebrew. But the best sources we have of the Greek Text, the oldest sources do not have the statement. Further it is the consensus of most scholars and Bible translators that it is not part of the book of 1 John. All kinds of things were said by different people in the early centuries but that does not make them reasonable assertions into the New Testament.

You are certainly free to believe whatever you want but there is a reason why people do not try to base doctrines upon disputed texts.

Although you have done a good job of making your point, I still do not believe in the trinity doctrine. The reason being is that the Old Testament does not support that claim. Also I do not trust the Catholic Church in any of their claims. If the trinitarian claim was true, then the Old testament would not contradict that claim. And there is no need to quote any scripture from the Old Testament that supports trinitarism, I have looked into to it, and have found it A.I.T. or not correctly translated. Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger:
He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text
of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian)
profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and
third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far
as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came
from the city of Rome." The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew
28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that
started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence
proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated.
Very few know about these historical facts.
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page
152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his
library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered
Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first
copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus'
actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19:
"With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make
disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all
things whatsover I have commanded you." ///That "Name" is Jesus.

 

[daro2096]

No it is not found in any Greek Manuscripts. until the 1500's.



Granted there has been corruption of the texts, both in Greek and Hebrew. But the best sources we have of the Greek Text, the oldest sources do not have the statement. Further it is the consensus of most scholars and Bible translators that it is not part of the book of 1 John. All kinds of things were said by different people in the early centuries but that does not make them reasonable assertions into the New Testament.

You are certainly free to believe whatever you want but there is a reason why people do not try to base doctrines upon disputed texts.

The Waldenses believed 1 John 5:7 was part of Scripture. Their Bible was older than the Latin Vulgate by some 200 years.

Just because the older manuscripts don't support it doesn't mean it isn't part of Scripture. The older manuscripts are corrupted. The majority of witnesses supports 1 John 5:7 as in the KJV.

Ask yourself one question. Why have the oldest manuscripts survived? The answer is nobody used them because they were corrupted so they didn't wear out. There was no printing press back then. They were hand copied. If you were using a Bible everyday it would wear out sooner or later so you would make copies. This is why there is no early manuscripts that contain 1 John 5:7 as in the KJV.

 

[daro2096]

Although you have done a good job of making your point, I still do not believe in the trinity doctrine. The reason being is that the Old Testament does not support that claim. Also I do not trust the Catholic Church in any of their claims. If the trinitarian claim was true, then the Old testament would not contradict that claim. And there is no need to quote any scripture from the Old Testament that supports trinitarism, I have looked into to it, and have found it A.I.T. or not correctly translated. Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger:
He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text
of Matthew 28:19. "The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian)
profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and
third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far
as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came
from the city of Rome." The Trinity baptism and text of Matthew
28:19 therefore did not originate from the original Church that
started in Jerusalem around AD 33. It was rather as the evidence
proves a later invention of Roman Catholicism completely fabricated.
Very few know about these historical facts.
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page
152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his
library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered
Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first
copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus'
actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19:
"With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make
disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all
things whatsover I have commanded you." ///That "Name" is Jesus.

No evidense in the OT?

What about Genesis chapter 1?

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:2

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Genesis 6:3

And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]? Genesis 41:38

And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, Exodus 31:3

And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship; Exodus 35:31

And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that [was] upon him, and gave [it] unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, [that], when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. But there remained two [of the] men in the camp, the name of the one [was] Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they [were] of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them! Numbers 11:25-26, 29

And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding [in his tents] according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him. Numbers 24:2

And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom [is] the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him; Numbers 27:18

And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim. Judges 3:10

But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him. Judges 6:34

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 3:25

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.


There are more but I think that will do for now.