I have a question for Christians...

[anonymous person]

Okay, I can see what you mean, but as I looked at the information, it was hard for me to decipher. So for a younger woman, could you help interpret the resources? I may be smart, but I haven't read older texts for quite a while.

I would be glad to.

Tacitus was a Roman historian writing early in the 2nd century A.D. His Annals provide us with a single reference to Jesus of considerable value.

Here is a full quote of the cite of our concern, from Annals 15.44. Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome's fire of 64 AD:

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the Bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements Which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero From the infamy of being believed to have ordered the Conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he Falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were Hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was Put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign Of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things Hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their Center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first Made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an Immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of Firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

What can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

I am confused, what do you mean?

A syllogism is a kind of logical argument that applies deductive reasoning to arrive at a conclusion based on two or more propositions that are asserted or assumed to be true.

For example:

1. All men are mortal

2. Socrates is a man

3. Therefore, Socrates is mortal

Now what is a non-sequitur you ask?

Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises. In anon sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because there is a disconnection between the premise and the conclusion.

For example:

1. The school in which my child goes to school is big. The classroom must be big.
2. She drives a BMW. She must be rich.
3. Greenhouse gasses contribute to global warming. Humans contribute to greenhouse gas production. Humans are solely to blame for global warming.
5. She's wearing red shoes. Her favorite color must be red.

1. Is a non-sequitur because the school may be comprised of many small classrooms.
2. Is a non-sequitur because the woman may be poor and may be driving a friends car, or a stolen car etc.
3. Is a non-sequitur because there may be other contributing factors to global warming.
4. Is a non-sequitur because the red shoes may be the only pair she has.


Now to your statement:

Morals are things that humans learn through their life. God has no part in this.

This is a non-sequitur because God may be the one who enables us to learn these things as we go through life.

 

[Marie Faznette]

I would be glad to.

Tacitus was a Roman historian writing early in the 2nd century A.D. His Annals provide us with a single reference to Jesus of considerable value.

Here is a full quote of the cite of our concern, from Annals 15.44. Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome's fire of 64 AD:

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the Bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements Which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero From the infamy of being believed to have ordered the Conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he Falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were Hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was Put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign Of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things Hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their Center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first Made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an Immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of Firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

What can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

I understand now and I do see the connections that you make. I can see how Jesus would be real, but how is it proven that he is the son of God? Although explaining this may be futile because I have no beliefs in separate afterlives depending on what you believed or what is good or bad. I believe that death is like an eternal slumber. You can look back on life and like how some people sleep walk, spirits may walk the Earth still. A question for every religion I have is that "What if there is a god, but it is not your own? Will you go to your heaven, or will you burn in their hell?" So in all, I chose not to have a faith. While my family and significant other does, I do not. I will accept them and even attend their churches, but I do not believe. The reason I started this thread is to try to get some logical understanding of the Bible because to me, there is a lot more weird plot holes other than prophecies.

A syllogism is a kind of logical argument that applies deductive reasoning to arrive at a conclusion based on two or more propositions that are asserted or assumed to be true.

For example:

1. All men are mortal

2. Socrates is a man

3. Therefore, Socrates is mortal

Now what is a non-sequitur you ask?

Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises. In anon sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because there is a disconnection between the premise and the conclusion.

For example:

1. The school in which my child goes to school is big. The classroom must be big.
2. She drives a BMW. She must be rich.
3. Greenhouse gasses contribute to global warming. Humans contribute to greenhouse gas production. Humans are solely to blame for global warming.
5. She's wearing red shoes. Her favorite color must be red.

1. Is a non-sequitur because the school may be comprised of many small classrooms.
2. Is a non-sequitur because the woman may be poor and may be driving a friends car, or a stolen car etc.
3. Is a non-sequitur because there may be other contributing factors to global warming.
4. Is a non-sequitur because the red shoes may be the only pair she has.


Now to your statement:

Morals are things that humans learn through their life. God has no part in this.

This is a non-sequitur because God may be the one who enables us to learn these things as we go through life.

I see what you mean and when I give a bit more thought, it makes sense that during the creation of humans, they were given thought and morals. While I do believe in a god, I do not believe in a Christian god. But it would make sense that the creator of us gave us our own thought of what is right and what is wrong. Or if you want to go down another path, humans, through their own evolutionary path (not saying that humans are directly related to apes) learned that certain things in life were wrong or right. So it could go either way.

 

[Grafted In]

Odd, don't you think, that a person would waste time on a website that runs contrary to one's beliefs.
I'll give an example of a prophesy that was fulfilled, but it'll do nothing to help you come to believe. One MUST become born again to understand Scripture. The only faith you will ever have is the exact amount to believe the Gospel. Nothing anyone says or does will change that. You must be born again. You could read and memorize the entire Bible and come away with no more faith than you have now.
But here's the prophesy I spoke of: Jesus and Josua had the same name and for a reason. Joshua led the Hebrew people into the promised land just as Jesus will lead those who believe on Him into the Heavanly promised land.
Without the Spirit of God you cannot understand that. God is Spirit and nothing about Him can be understood by a person who does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
But stick around. Perhaps the Father will decide to reveal His Son to you. He is not willing that you should parish but that you would believe on Jesus Christ and be born again.

 

[Ronald]

Matthew 24:2 But he answered and said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Okay, here it says that it will be destroyed. It said nothing about how or when so it is very vague to where anyone can say "Oh! It is no longer here! It must be destroyed!" The temple could easily have been destroyed by nature. It is hardly convincing of "Jesus".
It is an historical fact that the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. as sound as our 16th president was Abe Lincoln.
This is varied outside Biblical texts.


Daniel 2:31 - Daniel 2:45
Okay, while it is "prophesized", it does not DIRECTLY say which kingdoms came to power. In order for me to believe, I wish not to rely on interpretations of vague, made up, over translated stories that change with every translation, but I wish to see straight evidence about this.
We have over 5000 Greek manuscripts to confirm the authenticity and accuracy. With any historical writings of antiquity, textual criticism is used. It's simply an analytical process of comparing texts with each other. If 4800 manuscripts are exactly identical, then they look at the remaining. They might then find 2000 errors, but when examining these errors, they turn out to be flip flop phrase, misspelled words, missing words and after their conclusions, these errors do not change or conflict with any doctrines, they merely correct them to conform to the majority. Every translation ( and there are 20 major English translations ALL RESORT TO THE EARLIEST GREEK CODEXES - ONE! It's not like people think: this story is passed down to one person, then he passes it to another and by the time hundreds of years pass, the story changes. NO, NO, NO!
One Greek manuscript then examined by a group of fifty or so Christian theologians with PHD's in Greek and English, taking five years and then presenting say the NIV or NAS or whichever. That's accurate and we can be confident. Besides even the Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the accuracy of the Old Testament. The is a scroll containing the book of Isaiah word for word intact.






Okay, do you not think that they looked at that prophecy and thought "Oh gee wilikers! If this prophecy doesn't come true then we will all look like idiots!" and worked together to make it happen? Also, translations get lost with the years and for all we know, it could almost never had said that. And before you say "Ha! Those are the reasons? You must obviously have lost!" I didn't lose yet, because I am asking for clear cut information and not vague words.
The test of the Old Testament prophets were if they could prophecy something that could be validated in their lives come trued EXACTLY IN DETAIL, THEN THEY COULD TRUST HIS FUTURE PREDICTIONS. If the prophet was wrong, they would be stoned to death. So people generally (especially holy men) did not make foolish claims in fear of their lives.





Wow... And I converted many times from Christian to Atheist to Wicca to others. Jeez... Besides there were Christians that looked for truth in the Bible and became Atheist. Secondly, miracles DO NOT happen. No matter how hard we pray, why does God frown upon the thousands of children who are sick, abused, starving, ect. and do nothing? In my honesty, Heaven is just a silly reward system for following a cult book, Hell is a threat used to terrorize people in Christianity, and God is an imaginary friend who you think of just to feel better. And if I want to convert, I will never repent my sins. According to the basics, in Christianity, all you have to do is believe in God and Jesus and then go to heaven. And no, I am not blind, I am living just fine with out some "God".

Look at the development in the womb of a mother. That is a miracle. Unless you can tell me how cells decipher genetic codes and proceed to build complex systems within systems, cell by cell, and form a blend of parental features, a human being like you nine months later. That process is designed, ordered and directed by God. Cells don't have little brains, nor do women know what's going on inside. Life comes from life.

 

[Ronald]

Okay... No. I did not ask for you to insult me by telling me I have problems. I asked for you to give me proof that Jesus Christ existed on THIS Earth that was not in the Bible. If he really did existed, then shouldn't all Christians have some sort of proof to back up their claims?
Secondly, God did not give humans morals. That is a thing that humans learn through there life. The purpose to life is not to have a relationship with "God" (I am using quotations as to note that this is YOUR god, not mine). The purpose is to live, gain knowledge of the world, create a legacy that you can smile on, then pass it down. Now, I never said I was an Atheist. My beliefs are that when we die, we go into an eternal slumber. Whether you dream in this sleep is not certain, but it is eternal. I do not believe in sin. I do not believe in a "god" that condemns and judges people. I do not believe in Satan. I believe in a creator and that everyone has free will. What type of god tempts their own creation with something that can ruin them? It's like if I created my own being that would die if it touched the water, put a pool of pure H20 next to it, and told it not to jump in. Of course, the beings with a curious nature, would jump in and die. That's the EXACT same thing God did with humans. And OH YES, GOD MADE MANKIND NICE, THAT IS WHY THEY CONDEM GAYS WHEN THE BIBLE SAID TO NOT EAT PORK OR SHELLFISH OR NOT TO BREED TWO TYPES OF ANIMALS OR WEAR TWO FABRIC MATERIAL. IT IS AMAZING HOW THE BIBLE SAID THAT WOMAN IS LESSER THAN MAN. It is amazing despite all that, in MATTHEW 7:1, it said "Judge not, that ye be judged."
"Then if all we have is this life, we are no better than animals, just smarter and more able." Well no duh, Sherlock! We are all just smarter animals! If that is wrong, then why is our genome so close to other animals and not completely unique?
"The is evidence of Jesus everywhere." Like what?! Where? All I see is products of evolution and amazing minds!
"If He never existed, you would be surprised at what this world would look like." Um... Pretty sure it would be the same because JESUS NEVER EXISTED IF YOU CAN'T PROVE IT!

Proof is in how He has transformed lives, the change in people, civilization, nations.
Legacy? After you die, aside from your immediate family, you are forgotten. People do not want to follow ways beyond what happened only ten years ago. They want to push toward the future, new age stuff and forget the past. Oh, is Obama trying to build a legacy?
This is why you rebel and reject Jesus and the Bible:
"But the natural man (both man and woman) receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him; neither can he (or she) know them, because they are spiritually discerned."1 Cor. 2:14

 

[anonymous person]

I understand now and I do see the connections that you make. I can see how Jesus would be real, but how is it proven that he is the son of God?

Luke the physician and historian recounts something that Paul said in the book of Acts. Paul is recorded as having said:

He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."32Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this."…

Here Paul says that the proof that Jesus was the Son of God was the fact that He was raised from the dead.

If Jesus was raised from the dead, would this be evidence enough for you to affirm that Jesus was indeed the Son of God?

Although explaining this may be futile because I have no beliefs in separate afterlives depending on what you believed or what is good or bad. I believe that death is like an eternal slumber. You can look back on life and like how some people sleep walk, spirits may walk the Earth still.

I do not think it would be futile. I think that if Jesus rose from the dead then this would be God’s vindication of Jesus’ radical personal claims to divine authority.

In other words, it would be something we could point to and say: "Gosh! Jesus rose from the dead. This is the miracle that shows that He is who He said He was!"

A question for every religion I have is that "What if there is a god, but it is not your own? Will you go to your heaven, or will you burn in their hell?"

This may surprise you, but I do believe that there are other gods. I believe that there are many gods who people worship. Some worship Satan as a god. Some worship many gods i.e. the pantheon of gods found in Hinduistic beliefs.

However, I have evidence that the God revealed in Jesus Christ is Lord of lords and King of kings, and it is to Him that we will have to give an account, not the false gods of Hinduism or Satan, etc. etc.

So in all, I chose not to have a faith. While my family and significant other does, I do not. I will accept them and even attend their churches, but I do not believe.

Trust me, I understand why you take this position.

The reason I started this thread is to try to get some logical understanding of the Bible because to me, there is a lot more weird plot holes other than prophecies.

To this I agree also. There are several things in the Bible that are hard for me to understand. These things are commonly referred to as "hard sayings", i.e. things that do not make sense to me that I would like to understand but because of my cognitive limitations, I have no recourse but to humbly say: "Oh Lord thou knowest!"

I see what you mean and when I give a bit more thought, it makes sense that during the creation of humans, they were given thought and morals. While I do believe in a god, I do not believe in a Christian god.

You are not far from the Kingdom of God.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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As a reminder, the Philosophy Forum Statement of Purpose includes this:

The CF Philosophy forum is not intended for general apologetics of Christianity, i.e., the defense of the Christian faith against arguments, objections or attacks from non-Christians. Nor is this forum intended as a means for Christian evangelism (persuasion) of unbelievers.

 

[High Fidelity]

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[oi_antz]

Hi Marie, I think that with prophecy, like all things God meets us on, faith is a key aspect. For instance you can say that because the Western Wall still stands, then the prophecy is not fulfilled that not one stone will be left upon another. However, someone who wants to believe that it is fulfilled can say that Jesus was using an exaggeration, and that what He meant to describe was a major destruction. Then it can be said to be fulfilled. So there is always a way out and a way in, for those who want to believe and those who don't. Yet, the truth cannot support both takes.

You have seen Isaiah 53. See whether you will believe that verse 9 corresponds to Matthew 27:57-61.