ianb321red
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- Aug 27, 2011
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Yes - definitely open to that approach. What other standard(s) would you advocate or suggest?
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What if one's standard of judgement does not come from the Bible?
Having investigated this issue previously, I actually would argue that it is questionable whether Muhammad even existed as an historical figure.
And even if he did exist, he was meant to be illiterate.
For me, Islam is a total man-made invention and a false religion - although it does still have some truth in it which is enough to deceive people.
I think the Quran can be clearly shown to be drawing/ and prolifically plagiarising from numerous prevalent sources - Hindu myths, Jewish Midrash tales, Zorastrian writings and Gnostics gospels such as Barnabas (which is virtually universally considered to be fake).
The main "proof" however, is what the Quran says about Isa/ Jesus and the differences versus our bible. I do not see how any right-minded person, can consider the Quranic account of Isa/ Jesus as even remotely plausible when you consider who wrote the account, when it was written, where it was written and what evidence supports what was written. If you consider the biblical accounts along the same lines (who, when, where etc etc) you'd have to be very optimistic to think that the Islamic account is anything other than something lifted from one of the aforementioned Gnostic gospels.
Back to the post so as not to wander too much.
Are Isis/Isil the real McCoy?
I would suggest that "Isis/Isil is more an attempted exploitation and distortion of the religion. Resorting to terrorism and killing innocents I would suggest cannot be justified... Consider the following:
The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend. - Qur'an 41:34
112 And whoso committeth a delinquency or crime, then throweth (the blame) thereof upon the innocent, hath burdened himself with falsehood and a flagrant crime. - Qur'an 4:112
"...never try to strengthen your power, position and prestige by shedding innocent blood. Such murders instead of making your position strong will not only considerably weaken it but may also transfer your power totally, taking it away from you and entrusting it to somebody else."
(Ali b. Abi Taalib, Letters from Nahjul Balaagh)
Well depends what they consider a good deed, if it is slaying anyone who refuses to convert,
One thing I find puzzling is, if the US are so powerful how come they do not finish them off?
Or at least round them up and deport them to the South pole, they may cool down.
I had a couple of Ukrainians staying with me, some years back now,
we were talking about this and that,
and we drifted into a Christian v muslim more or less talk.
They pointed out that Paul did mission trips to Turkey and introduced Christianity,
but today Turkey is Islam.
Of course I know not the ins and outs of it.
"M" probably lived why would there be doubt?
There is a very serious doubt if you start to ask and investigate this issue seriously. This is of course not a question many people would ask though!
There may have been some sort of historical figure called "Muhammad" who taught a form of monotheism, but whether this figure was who Muslims claim he is - a prophet of God who received the perfect word from God, I am 100% sure this person did not exist.
The majority of people would not be able to provide ANY form of evidence outside of the Quran that Muhammad even existed.
But even in the Quran, he is mentioned just 4 times, and of those 4 mentions - 3 appear to be referring to a title.
By contrast, Jesus is mentioned around 1000 times in the Bible, and we also have some evidence that Jesus is mentioned in non-Biblical texts.
So we have arguably nothing outside of the Quran about Muhammad, and arguably next to nothing about Muhammad inside the Quran.
So why would anyone think he DID exist??
Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common as far as origin--both based on Christianity and started by one man who claimed to have been given a revelation by an angel.
I think there are contradictions in the Quran, especially about whether there should be compulsion in religion.
I recognize that sometimes apparent contradictions actually have an explanation that harmonizes them. That's why I'm asking--I want to hear from someone who has studied the Quran so I can learn how good of a harmonization they can offer. If you know the Quran, could you explain how its message harmonizes regarding freedom of religion?
Having investigated this issue previously, I actually would argue that it is questionable whether Muhammad even existed as an historical figure.
And even if he did exist, he was meant to be illiterate.
I think the Quran can be clearly shown to be drawing/ and prolifically plagiarising from numerous prevalent sources - Hindu myths
Jewish Midrash tales, Zorastrian writings and Gnostics gospels such as Barnabas (which is virtually universally considered to be fake).
The main "proof" however, is what the Quran says about Isa/ Jesus and the differences versus our bible.
The majority of people would not be able to provide ANY form of evidence outside of the Quran that Muhammad even existed.
By contrast, Jesus is mentioned around 1000 times in the Bible, and we also have some evidence that Jesus is mentioned in non-Biblical texts.
So why would anyone think he DID exist??
What evidence do you have outside of the Bible that Jesus even existed?
1:1 I glorify God even Jesus Christ, who hath thus made you wise; for I perceived that ye were perfected in immovable faith, as though ye were nailed to the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ in flesh and in spirit, and firmly fixed in love in the blood of Christ, being fully persuaded with regard to our Lord, that he was truly of the race of David according to the flesh, the Son of God according to the will and power of God; truly born of a virgin; baptized by John, that all righteousness might be fulfilled by him;
1:2 truly nailed for us unto the cross in the flesh in the time of Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch; from the fruit of which cross are we, even from his divinely blessed passion, that he might raise up a sign unto the ages, by means of the resurrection, even unto the saints and them that believe in him, whether they be among the Jews or the Gentiles, in one body of his church.
The Epistle of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans 1:1-2
Historians no longer believe that Muhammad was 'born in the full-light of history' as they once did, but there is still more evidence that Muhammad was a historical figure than there is for the existence of Christ.
What would anyone in Arabia know about Hindu myths?
Uh yeah, the Gospel of Barnabas is a fake. It was written centuries after the Qur'an and could hardly have influenced it.
If you applied the same standard to Jesus as you are to Muhammad, why would you even think Jesus exists?
Depends what you mean - do you mean the Muhammad as prophet who received the final word from God, or do you mean someone called Muhammad who started the Islamic religion?
Hinduism pre-dates Islam, so this is not a difficult concept.
It is fairly easy to identify aspects of the Quran derived from eastern religions like Hinduism and Zorastrianism.
Again, not a difficult concept - many of the later translations of the Quran have re-worked some of the Barnabas content in.
Why would I think Jesus didn't exist?
What evidence do you have outside of the Bible that Jesus even existed?
Not sources that are contemporary with Jesus. As for the ones written afterwards, we have those for Muhammad as well.
For the same reason you think Jesus exist. However, this thread has been taken out of the debate forum so you really should be discussing it elsewhere.
The Qur'an calls Muhammad the Seal of the Prophets but it never said He received the final word from God.
There is no evidence it reached Arabia.
What aspect is derived from Hinduism?
Zoroastrianism, yes. The same aspects that had already been adopted by Judaism and Christianity.
A translation cannot be the Qur'an.
By applying the same standard you are applying to Muhammad.
The Quran?
How do you define "contemporary with Jesus" exactly?
But that's clearly not true - are you suggesting that we can understand to them same level about Muhammad from the main text of Islam the Quran, that we can about Jesus from the main text of Christianity?
Well depends what they consider a good deed, if it is slaying anyone who refuses to convert,
One thing I find puzzling is, if the US are so powerful how come they do not finish them off?
Or at least round them up and deport them to the South pole, they may cool down.
They pointed out that Paul did mission trips to Turkey and introduced Christianity,
but today Turkey is Islam.
Of course I know not the ins and outs of it.
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