I Hate This Place!

[TrustAndObey]

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[TrustAndObey]

I did not mean that the LORD told me to leave just that I would. For you to say anything else is dishonet.

Oh please! That's EXACTLY what you said.

You left the word "Lord" out of your original statement, but you even came back to clarify that you did mean the Lord convicted you two years ago.

Why are you trying to take your statement back now?

But you are insensitive and you are butting in. you really should check you attitude at the fourm door. You've take this way to far, wrote way to much kept it going far to long and have to get the last word in. this is simply a matter of pride now let it go, ego is getting the better of you. I clarifed the statment because you did not understand what I said and put words in my mouth and twisted what is said. I think you need to ask youself where is the end point for you. when are you going to stop.

Icedragon, I'm not butting in. You told a non-Adventist that the Lord convicted you 2 years ago that you will not be an Adventist either. You told them this on a public forum.

Now you want to take it all back apparently, but I'm sorry, I quoted your statement for a REASON.

As far as people questioning there will always be question. people will always have doubts. As far as "faithful Adventist" I resent you statment. until NOV 06 you would have considered me in you camp. To be a "faithful adventist" as you say is to lie to my self. I know way to much about adventist history to be what you call "faithful" to be that is to be blind and unfaithful to God. God says to "test the spirits for many false prophets have gone out into the world" I did that and EGW failed. Sorry you don't like that, it must be tough for you.

Hey, sounds like you've made up your mind. Which is ironic since Tall keeps accusing me of "not doing my part" to get you to stay.

Why would I try to get you to stay? If God told you not to, then why would I try to interfere in that?

Reality is hard to deal with I know. but when tought questions come they either make your faith by leading you to real answers or break your faith. apperantly there is nothing behind you claims, critics force you to face reality and reality can be very harsh. there are no free passes given to intellectual intergity. you either have or you don't. either what you believe is real on it is fiction. if it is real it will stand, if it won't then you will have a hard life.

Amen. I'm just telling you that you can't debate in here. Apparently that is a little harder for you to deal with than me dealing with your statement that God told you to leave the church.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Actually he has asked to discuss the issues numerous times. And when he came here he was not thinking of leaving the church.

And since you have mostly just called for him to leave and have not tried to answer his questions you have not, from my perspective, earned the right to ask him to leave.

Oh for pete's sake! I did not call him to leave. I merely commented that if GOD indeed told him to leave, then he cannot debate in here. Now suddenly the Lord didn't convict him.

Tall, Icedragon is quite capable of talking for himself on this issue. Friends of mine, like Wooba, however, are leaving and can't express their concerns without a major forum lashing.

Why is that?

If you want to really help him then convince him that he is wrong and that the voice he heard is not of God because the Bible says otherwise. But telling him to leave does not answer any of his questions.

He's already made up his mind and you know it.

He won't answer any of my direct questions so the conversation really isn't working.

People who have tried to discuss issues that they are dealing with have been largely criticized rather than answered with biblical information.

Jim, OntheDL and Jon are the exceptions as they have been very helpful in talking things through with us in the denominational specific forum. I thank them for that, and they have helped me re-examine at least a couple of points so far, though they have not convinced me on a number of others.

Why the jab? Why is it up to these people to convince you that you're wrong when you're an Adventist pastor and are taking tithe money from people that accepted our doctrine? And when did this become about you anyway?

But have you done what you could to help him with the issues he is struggling with?

We are not responsible for your friends who VOLUNTARILY look at threads that are discussing things. If they don't want to discuss an issue skip the thread. The rules permit us to discuss.

You're not responsible for my friends, but I'm responsible for yours? Are you seeing the irony here?

It's somehow up to me to convince Ice to stay when the Lord told him not to? The Lord didn't convict ME of what YOU are trying to, I'm sorry.

ice is now pretty sure he is leaving. Why, do you want to hurry him along to what you believe is destruction at the worst or delusion at the least?

Okay, read those words very carefully. "Ice is now pretty sure he is leaving". He said the Lord CONVICTED him to leave....I'm not hurrying anyone, and would love for him to stay, but if he's not Adventist he can't debate in here and that is ALL I was saying.

And as to Woob, I am not sure what he has to do with this. He is sincere, but he is not traditional on the point we have the most questions about. He believes the IJ started in Peter's time. Therefore he rejects the traditional view.

Tall, Wooba started this thread because he's leaving the forum. He has EVERYTHING to do with this thread.

I am here becaues I was here before this all came up.

I never asked you why you were here. I'm not sure how this became about you.

Ice is here because I recommended the forum to him. He was not asking these questions then. We talked over some of the issues but he really didn't even get what I was saying. He then saw it one day in the text of Daniel 8, and started to put together what he was reading in the history.

Then he started asking questions so that he could TEST the voice he heard to see if it was from God.

Now again, what are you doing to help this man who is trying to make an important choice in his faith?

I'm doing about the same thing as Ice did to Wooba when Wooba stated he was leaving the forum. Why aren't you asking Ice why he would just bid Wooba farewell without asking HIM to stay?

 

[TrustAndObey]

wooba's posts have made me think, so he (she?) has done some good. Come back dude. (or girl).

Wooba, I wanted to quote this post so you'd see that everything you say is NOT in vain.

I'm asking you to come back as well.

 

[Mankin]

Hey, woob, there are people who will make you upset on both sides of the spectrum here. Religion and politics are two things that cause the most emotion and anger when debated. Don't get angry, you just have to accept that. Come back Woob, I am sure your comments have helped people. People disagree and fight, that is the way of life. Perhaps we can find a way on this forum to have some peace but right now I don't see that that will happen.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Hey, woob, there are people who will make you upset on both sides of the spectrum here. Religion and politics are two things that cause the most emotion and anger when debated. Don't get angry, you just have to accept that. Come back Woob, I am sure your comments have helped people. People disagree and fight, that is the way of life. Perhaps we can find a way on this forum to have some peace but right now I don't see that that will happen.

Never was there ever a truer statement! My family likes to debate politics...in fact, well, they love it. I went to the other extreme I guess.

I agree that Woob should come back.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I did not mean that the LORD told me to leave just that I would. For you to say anything else is dishonet.

What does this say?

the lord told me 2 years ago "I was not going to be an SDA any longer " At the time I dismissed the comment. I had no desire to leave. still don't. but I can't find a way to resolve the prophetic issues then I guess I have to leave.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

What does this say?

I know the T&O has me on ignore, but she quoted it and it does not say God told you to leave. You would think that a person would allow that another's person's experience would outweigh their interpretation of the words relating that experience and stop arguing about it.

I recommend you leave her comments alone and see them for what they are.

 

[visio]

Right now I am thoroughly fed up with this forum! I don't see Jesus in here. All I see is a bunch of mean-spirited people in here.

I had hoped that this would be an encouraging place, but I don't think that is possible anymore.

This place just plain old sucks!

Goodbye!

Where theres truth there is a devil. There are member s who come here for the sole purpose of debating and demeaning God and his law. However there are a good many good people here who want nothing more than to learn about Christ and His word. I haven't read many of your posts but those I have seem very good. Don't leave because of others.

 

[visio]

I did not mean that the LORD told me to leave just that I would. For you to say anything else is dishonet.

The Lord told you to leave Adventism yet your not going to listen?
If you truly believe God told you to leave and your not leaving then I would call that a sin. I honestly don't believe God told you that because I truly believe this is the last day church however I won't call you a liar just a fool. Your either disobeying God(a great sin) or your misleading people into believing you had a conversation with God you never had.

Forgive me if I misunderstood something.

 

[tall73]

Oh for pete's sake! I did not call him to leave. I merely commented that if GOD indeed told him to leave, then he cannot debate in here. Now suddenly the Lord didn't convict him.

You told him he should leave and that he should not be able to post.

Do you actually believe it was the voice of God telling him this?

I assume since you believe that Adventists are the remnant that you don't believe the voice is really true. So why would you encourage him to listen to what you must surely think is a delusion and leave without trying to address the numerous issues he has raised?

I know him personally as he mentioned and I can attest that he was not questioning these things until recently. He was trying to reconcile things and hoped the voice wasn't true.

Now that he has been here and trying to discuss (and he has also talked things over with at least three SDA professors that I know of), he has been told that he is attacking the church because he has learned things that don't match what he always believed.

And have you tried to convince him otherwise? Or have you just pointed out that he is on his way out, may as well hurry and leave you all alone?

Tall, Icedragon is quite capable of talking for himself on this issue. Friends of mine, like Wooba, however, are leaving and can't express their concerns without a major forum lashing.

Why is that?

I will let you in on a little secret. Woob did not leave. He pmed me about this very thread and we talked for a bit.

For that matter he has left and come back three or four times now. He just needs a break at times as we all do.

If your friends leave it is by their own choice. They have a choice about what discussions to participate in.

Now, again, the issue is did you try to help ice who is frustrated with the church or did you try to run him off?

He's already made up his mind and you know it.

He won't answer any of my direct questions so the conversation really isn't working.

Sorry, but you don't know what I know.

About a week ago or so he made the decision that EGW is definitely not a prophet. He did not make the decision to leave yet, though I agree that may well happen.

I may be following him eventually. Do you want to tell me to get out too?

We are not considering leaving because we hate the church but because we CANNOT RESOLVE theological issues. There is a simple solution for that for those who believe they have all the truth--EXPLAIN how we are wrong.

But only a few have really tried to help, mostly Jon, DL and Jim who have spent a good deal of time interacting.

Now what have you done? And if you don't know the issues well enough, why not pray for ice and hope for his reconciliation to what you believe is the remnant church? Why not plead with God to save him from this delusion if he is wrong?

You had not even read a single EGW book until recently, if you even finished it now. Yet you said this on the 7th of May of those who had issues with her:

The more people cut her down, the more I am starting to believe too. And honestly, I think people are leaving because they are tired of having to defend her writings etc and they'd like to just be mainstream and fly over the radar without any controversy.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=34561537&postcount=38

Who are you to say why others are doing this?

You say that people have "cut her down." So any question is cutting down? What happened to testing the prophets? How would you possibly know if it was cutting down or not? You hadn't read anything.

Why the jab? Why is it up to these people to convince you that you're wrong when you're an Adventist pastor and are taking tithe money from people that accepted our doctrine? And when did this become about you anyway?

What jab? I said that jon and DL and Jim had been helpful. That is not a jab.

I am talking to more than just these people, but if I want to discuss issues here why should I not? You want me just to leave the church without trying to resolve issues?

It comes down to this. If you all have the truth why don't you set us straight instead of asking us to leave?

Why is it about me? Because

A. I am in the same boat as Ice
B. He had been my friend for years and you care more about your section of an internet board than you do about his soul.
C. This is about everyone since Statrei, Stormy, etc. who you have thought were not Adventist enough and wanted to get rid of. That is why this is about me. This is not your forum.

And apparently you dont' care about my soul either. You just want me to shut up and leave rather than trying to help me stay.

If you have the ability and just don't care to then what does that say about you?

And if you don't, then let me and ice and others work out our issues without your personal statements that don't give any factual answers on the issues.

You're not responsible for my friends, but I'm responsible for yours? Are you seeing the irony here?

Actually they are two different issues. One is about an internet forum which I have said again and agian NO ONE needs to leave. It is for discussion. The other is about the church which you feel is the remnant but you have no problem with telling people to leave.

Your friends leave voluntarily. But you want Ice to be barred from posting here based on your judgment of when he should leave. They are not the same.

It's somehow up to me to convince Ice to stay when the Lord told him not to? The Lord didn't convict ME of what YOU are trying to, I'm sorry.

So did the Lord convict you to tell him to get moving then?

Do you believe it was the Lord?

If the Lord didn't tell you to help him then stay out of it.

Okay, read those words very carefully. "Ice is now pretty sure he is leaving". He said the Lord CONVICTED him to leave....I'm not hurrying anyone, and would love for him to stay, but if he's not Adventist he can't debate in here and that is ALL I was saying.

And read what he also said that he didn't understand what it meant and that he was not wanting to leave.

And if you want him to stay then why don't you help him stay? Why would you want to run him off from where he could get answers to protect your internet turf?

Tall, Wooba started this thread because he's leaving the forum. He has EVERYTHING to do with this thread.

Woob didn't leave the forum, and you interjected him into your statement about ice's insincerity.

I never asked you why you were here. I'm not sure how this became about you.

Answerd above.

I'm doing about the same thing as Ice did to Wooba when Wooba stated he was leaving the forum. Why aren't you asking Ice why he would just bid Wooba farewell without asking HIM to stay?

Because woob was leaving (or not leaving as the case may be) an internet forum.

You are trying to get ice to leave what you believe is the remnant church.

So again, why don' you pray for ice and not keep trying to run him off from the church?

 

[tall73]

The Lord told you to leave Adventism yet your not going to listen?
If you truly believe God told you to leave and your not leaving then I would call that a sin. I honestly don't believe God told you that because I truly believe this is the last day church however I won't call you a liar just a fool. Your either disobeying God(a great sin) or your misleading people into believing you had a conversation with God you never had.

Forgive me if I misunderstood something.

So go to his many threads asking questions and answer them.

 

[tall73]

Hey, sounds like you've made up your mind. Which is ironic since Tall keeps accusing me of "not doing my part" to get you to stay.

Why would I try to get you to stay? If God told you not to, then why would I try to interfere in that?

Is this an example of how much you would love for him to stay?

 

[tall73]

But NE, this is an Adventist forum.

Dr. Loh is not an Adventist. This is a forum with an ecumenical mission statment.

Wooba has no plans to leave Adventism, he loves what we stand for and he defends what he believes with every fiber of his being.

I haven't seen Woobadooba trying to convince ice of the traditional IJ. And you won't because Woob doesn't believe it. Were you here trying to kick out woob when he was arguing that in the Adventist forum?

I think both ice and woob should be able to say whichever view they want.

I do know that Wooba can defend himself, trust me that I know this. He isn't here right now though. I'm not going to sit here quietly while I watch good Adventist people leave this forum....

He didn't leave.

Icedragon is here to defend himself. He just can't figure out how to undo what he's already said.

What he said was that God told him of a future event that he did not understand until recently. Now if you think it wasn't God then why are you trying to urge him to take the advice of the voice?

 

[TrustAndObey]

You told him he should leave and that he should not be able to post.

That is not true. I told him if he was convicted two years ago not to be Adventist, then he cannot debate in the Adventist forum.

Do you actually believe it was the voice of God telling him this?

Now see, here's the kicker...if *I* had said "Ice, I do not believe that was God talking to you" I would've gotten a million slams for even pretending to know whether or not Ice was really convicted by God.

I can hear it now "Trust..if he had said God convicted him to STAY you'd agree that he really did hear from God directly, but since it was the other way around you're pretending you know what God told the man."

You can say it and you won't get anyone jumping on you for it, but I won't say it. I really don't know if God convicted Ice or not. All I know is that Ice said He did.

I assume since you believe that Adventists are the remnant that you don't believe the voice is really true. So why would you encourage him to listen to what you must surely think is a delusion and leave without trying to address the numerous issues he has raised?

Tall, since I've returned to this forum I've seen a lot of Ice's posts, and none of them were in the form of "please help me understand this...I think I could be wrong." In fact, what I've seen is quite the opposite.

I know him personally as he mentioned and I can attest that he was not questioning these things until recently. He was trying to reconcile things and hoped the voice wasn't true.

Now that he has been here and trying to discuss (and he has also talked things over with at least three SDA professors that I know of), he has been told that he is attacking the church because he has learned things that don't match what he always believed.

And have you tried to convince him otherwise? Or have you just pointed out that he is on his way out, may as well hurry and leave you all alone?

He's defensive about anything that is said to him. I've really only talked to Ice on two occasions. Both times I asked him direct questions, which he ignored. That's not really talking.

I will let you in on a little secret. Woob did not leave. He pmed me about this very thread and we talked for a bit.

For that matter he has left and come back three or four times now. He just needs a break at times as we all do.

If your friends leave it is by their own choice. They have a choice about what discussions to participate in.

I've talked to Woob too.

Practice what you preach. If Ice is determined to leave the church, how in the world can I convince him otherwise? His statements are very matter-of-fact.

I mean seriously, do you honestly think anything I can say (or anyone else for that matter) is going to change Ice's mind?

I didn't really ever even talk to Ice until he stated that we believe in legends and myths (the book of Genesis). Then I saw him say the Lord convicted him to leave the church.

Is pointing that out a bad thing? Is using his own words to keep him from running MORE people out of this forum a bad thing?

Now, again, the issue is did you try to help ice who is frustrated with the church or did you try to run him off?

I don't see frustration. I see a man that is determined to find error (which he has stated himself) so he can leave.

My question still stands....does he really want people to give him reasons to stay (which in essence means we're telling him to disobey God by his OWN statements)? Or does he just want to take people out of Adventism WITH him?

Those are not hard questions. I don't see him asking questions, I see him telling people they are WRONG.

Sorry, but you don't know what I know.

About a week ago or so he made the decision that EGW is definitely not a prophet. He did not make the decision to leave yet, though I agree that may well happen.

I may be following him eventually. Do you want to tell me to get out too?

I'm not telling anyone to go anywhere. I simply stated that when someone says the Lord CONVICTED them that they won't be Adventist anymore, they cannot debate in the Adventist forum.

Do I have a problem with you struggling with theology? No, I sure don't. I do it all the time. However, I do not accept money from people that look up to me as their spiritual leader either.

We are not considering leaving because we hate the church but because we CANNOT RESOLVE theological issues. There is a simple solution for that for those who believe they have all the truth--EXPLAIN how we are wrong.

See, that's it right there. You said you CANNOT resolve these issues. Are you really looking for answers? Or are you determined they CANNOT be resolved no matter what?

But only a few have really tried to help, mostly Jon, DL and Jim who have spent a good deal of time interacting.

Now what have you done? And if you don't know the issues well enough, why not pray for ice and hope for his reconciliation to what you believe is the remnant church? Why not plead with God to save him from this delusion if he is wrong?

You had not even read a single EGW book until recently, if you even finished it now. Yet you said this on the 7th of May of those who had issues with her:

You know I haven't read a single EGW book because I've been very OPEN about that. I knew eventually someone would try to throw that in my face as "well then you can't possibly know what you're talking about." I didn't think it would be you doing it, but oh well.

Who are you to say why others are doing this?

You say that people have "cut her down." So any question is cutting down? What happened to testing the prophets? How would you possibly know if it was cutting down or not? You hadn't read anything.

I've seen a lot more than "testing" going on. I've seen people say that to believe she was prophetic is insane, small-minded, and ignorant. You know that Tall.

This post is getting too long, I'll have to continue it.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Dr. Loh is not an Adventist. This is a forum with an ecumenical mission statment.

This is an Adventist SUB forum, sorry. There are rules in this forum about non-Adventists not debating, no?

What he said was that God told him of a future event that he did not understand until recently. Now if you think it wasn't God then why are you trying to urge him to take the advice of the voice?

That's not what he said. Well, I take that back, when he was BACKTRACKING he said God told him it would be a future event.

And brother, it certainly isn't ME that is telling him that he didn't really hear from God. I never ONCE said I don't believe he really was convicted by God. In fact, I am struggling with the fact that he appears to be disobeying God.

 

[TrustAndObey]

PS...I've been PMing with Wooba as well. He is disgusted by all the people pointing fingers at us for believing Adventist doctrine that we VOLUNTARILY accepted.

Why is it okay for someone to run off someone like Wooba, but it's not okay to make sure they're aware non-Adventists can't debate in here?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Because woob was leaving (or not leaving as the case may be) an internet forum.

You are trying to get ice to leave what you believe is the remnant church.

So again, why don' you pray for ice and not keep trying to run him off from the church?

Have I ever once stated that I think Ice should leave the Adventist church? Tall, come on, answer that question. Have I ever said he should leave?

HE said he was convicted by God to leave...two years ago.

Now to say something like that in an Adventist forum, a public forum, is worthy of a response from an Adventist, don't you think?

Is he disobeying God? Or does he not think the voice he heard was really God's? I mean, you seem to know what he's thinking, so please fill me in. Did Ice get convicted by God or not?

There is absolutely no way for any of us to know that. You're saying that it wasn't really God, but you're thinking about FOLLOWING Ice out the door?

You're just not making sense.

Let's do each other a favor and quit assuming we know what the other person is thinking or feeling. I HAVE prayed for Ice.

 

[Sophia7]

I know the T&O has me on ignore, but she quoted it and it does not say God told you to leave. You would think that a person would allow that another's person's experience would outweigh their interpretation of the words relating that experience and stop arguing about it.

I recommend you leave her comments alone and see them for what they are.

Well, I'll quote you then because you're right. It's not fair to misinterpret Ice's statements about his own experience. He didn't say that God had commanded him to leave. He said that God had told him that he would leave, and he didn't understand it. There's a big difference. He also said that he doesn't want to leave the church but that if he can't reconcile the prophetic issues, he will have to. He hasn't made a final decision. He is still an Adventist, so he is allowed to debate here.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Trustandobey wrote:

I'm not telling anyone to go anywhere. I simply stated that when someone says the Lord CONVICTED them that they won't be Adventist anymore, they cannot debate in the Adventist forum.

This is why the forum has moderators. People who actually know the rules and not those who want to make up rules as they go along. I think this thread and the other one about why can't we get along show a side of the Adventist church that I am very ashamed of.

I realize that most denominations have these problems the Roman Catholics that have those that rabidly hate Vatican 2 etc. There is something wrong in the fundamentalist conception of reality I think, something that limits them from even wanting others to express their ideas and I think that is something terrible.