I feel so angry often about most of the Insecurity preaching that I have received all my life.

[hopeforhappiness]

To me it seems that many evangelical preachers that I have listening to (with extended loyalty to His ministry) do not have the confidence in Christ's once and for all atonement for our sins to preach it. They communicate that His work of justification may be negated or overturned by our lack of sanctification. I have often heard from then of Jesus's warnings in parable form about the bridesmaids' unfilled oil lamps or the workers of good deeds being told that "He never knew them". I take those warnings to refer to those who Jesus genuinely never knew, not those who had a saving faith but somehow missed the mark and took the Lord's rejection.
Much preaching seems to me to be compromised, intended to keep the people from antinomianism or worse keeping them through guilt committed to the pastor's ministry. It's playing the authority card rather than releasing the people with the Good News. When was the last time I was reminded of the wonderful saving plan of God, through His glorious son, to deepen my love for Him and walk with Him.
I am in a Methodist church now (we are in a rural setting) and even Wesley with his arminianism would be perplexed by the social gospel/legalism/ we are all on the same road theology we are getting now. But that's a slightly different problem, but again the atonement and the wonder of Christ is put so far on the backburner I am surprised it hasn't fallen off.

 

[Apple Sky]

To me it seems that many evangelical preachers that I have listening to (with extended loyalty to His ministry) do not have the confidence in Christ's once and for all atonement for our sins to preach it. They communicate that His work of justification may be negated or overturned by our lack of sanctification. I have often heard from then of Jesus's warnings in parable form about the bridesmaids' unfilled oil lamps or the workers of good deeds being told that "He never knew them". I take those warnings to refer to those who Jesus genuinely never knew, not those who had a saving faith but somehow missed the mark and took the Lord's rejection.
Much preaching seems to me to be compromised, intended to keep the people from antinomianism or worse keeping them through guilt committed to the pastor's ministry. It's playing the authority card rather than releasing the people with the Good News. When was the last time I was reminded of the wonderful saving plan of God, through His glorious son, to deepen my love for Him and walk with Him.
I am in a Methodist church now (we are in a rural setting) and even Wesley with his arminianism would be perplexed by the social gospel/legalism/ we are all on the same road theology we are getting now. But that's a slightly different problem, but again the atonement and the wonder of Christ is put so far on the backburner I am surprised it hasn't fallen off.

The reason for me to stop going to church was b/c during Covid 19 when the churches closed, they wean't brave enough to put their trust & have faith in the Lord.

Most Sundays I now go on line & listen to the brilliant Pastor Dean Odle, look him up.

Sermons by Year | DeanOdle.org

www.deanodle.org

 

[Hugo B]

However, Jesus said to the Father :

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. (John 17)

We are sanctified once and for all in Jesus-Christ, who sanctified Himself for us. Without us, nor the disciples at the time, having anything to do.
No, but before Jesus said that, the disciples said :

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. (John 16)

That is the foundation : faith. They believed, that He came from God. And there is nothing that can separate or cancel Jesus' words. Except non-faith, disbelief [which is from the devil]. And if any work is added, any law, then everything is tarnished. In faith, there is nothing to do. It is Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who took care and will cake care of everything for us, according the Father's will.

In this regard, the author of the epistle to the hebrews said :

8 Above when he [Christ] said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he [Christ], Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10)

Jesus-Christ is the free gift of God, in favour of the whole world. He came for the sinners, because the Father so loved the world, this world full of sinners. Not to punish them, or condemn them; but to save them from themselves.
What do you have to give in return of a Free gift ? And, if you have to, is it still a free gift ?

Jesus said it when He came : "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath [already] everlasting life." (John 6:47)

Hugo

 

[Richard T]

To me it seems that many evangelical preachers that I have listening to (with extended loyalty to His ministry) do not have the confidence in Christ's once and for all atonement for our sins to preach it. They communicate that His work of justification may be negated or overturned by our lack of sanctification. I have often heard from then of Jesus's warnings in parable form about the bridesmaids' unfilled oil lamps or the workers of good deeds being told that "He never knew them". I take those warnings to refer to those who Jesus genuinely never knew, not those who had a saving faith but somehow missed the mark and took the Lord's rejection.
Much preaching seems to me to be compromised, intended to keep the people from antinomianism or worse keeping them through guilt committed to the pastor's ministry. It's playing the authority card rather than releasing the people with the Good News. When was the last time I was reminded of the wonderful saving plan of God, through His glorious son, to deepen my love for Him and walk with Him.
I am in a Methodist church now (we are in a rural setting) and even Wesley with his arminianism would be perplexed by the social gospel/legalism/ we are all on the same road theology we are getting now. But that's a slightly different problem, but again the atonement and the wonder of Christ is put so far on the backburner I am surprised it hasn't fallen off.

Here is an example of my teacher on Grace. He has Southern Baptist roots including pre-trib rapture but is definitely charismatic/Pentecostal.

 

[CoreyD]

To me it seems that many evangelical preachers that I have listening to (with extended loyalty to His ministry) do not have the confidence in Christ's once and for all atonement for our sins to preach it. They communicate that His work of justification may be negated or overturned by our lack of sanctification. I have often heard from then of Jesus's warnings in parable form about the bridesmaids' unfilled oil lamps or the workers of good deeds being told that "He never knew them". I take those warnings to refer to those who Jesus genuinely never knew, not those who had a saving faith but somehow missed the mark and took the Lord's rejection.
Much preaching seems to me to be compromised, intended to keep the people from antinomianism or worse keeping them through guilt committed to the pastor's ministry. It's playing the authority card rather than releasing the people with the Good News. When was the last time I was reminded of the wonderful saving plan of God, through His glorious son, to deepen my love for Him and walk with Him.
I am in a Methodist church now (we are in a rural setting) and even Wesley with his arminianism would be perplexed by the social gospel/legalism/ we are all on the same road theology we are getting now. But that's a slightly different problem, but again the atonement and the wonder of Christ is put so far on the backburner I am surprised it hasn't fallen off.

I feel you.
What are you doing about this?

 

[hopeforhappiness]

However, Jesus said to the Father :

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. (John 17)

We are sanctified once and for all in Jesus-Christ, who sanctified Himself for us. Without us, nor the disciples at the time, having anything to do.
No, but before Jesus said that, the disciples said :

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. (John 16)

That is the foundation : faith. They believed, that He came from God. And there is nothing that can separate or cancel Jesus' words. Except non-faith, disbelief [which is from the devil]. And if any work is added, any law, then everything is tarnished. In faith, there is nothing to do. It is Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who took care and will cake care of everything for us, according the Father's will.

In this regard, the author of the epistle to the hebrews said :

8 Above when he [Christ] said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he [Christ], Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10)

Jesus-Christ is the free gift of God, in favour of the whole world. He came for the sinners, because the Father so loved the world, this world full of sinners. Not to punish them, or condemn them; but to save them from themselves.
What do you have to give in return of a Free gift ? And, if you have to, is it still a free gift ?

Jesus said it when He came : "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath [already] everlasting life." (John 6:47)

Hugo

Great stuff. But how do you understand those verses which talk of judgement by works?
And what of the unprepared bridesmaids?

 

[Hugo B]

Great stuff. But how do you understand those verses which talk of judgement by works?
And what of the unprepared bridesmaids?

What verses are you thinking about ?
Concerning those ten virgins, I can not answer. I can only talk about what I personnaly know, and understand. I would be very uncomfortable not doig so.

Hugo

 

[d taylor]

To me it seems that many evangelical preachers that I have listening to (with extended loyalty to His ministry) do not have the confidence in Christ's once and for all atonement for our sins to preach it. They communicate that His work of justification may be negated or overturned by our lack of sanctification. I have often heard from then of Jesus's warnings in parable form about the bridesmaids' unfilled oil lamps or the workers of good deeds being told that "He never knew them". I take those warnings to refer to those who Jesus genuinely never knew, not those who had a saving faith but somehow missed the mark and took the Lord's rejection.
Much preaching seems to me to be compromised, intended to keep the people from antinomianism or worse keeping them through guilt committed to the pastor's ministry. It's playing the authority card rather than releasing the people with the Good News. When was the last time I was reminded of the wonderful saving plan of God, through His glorious son, to deepen my love for Him and walk with Him.
I am in a Methodist church now (we are in a rural setting) and even Wesley with his arminianism would be perplexed by the social gospel/legalism/ we are all on the same road theology we are getting now. But that's a slightly different problem, but again the atonement and the wonder of Christ is put so far on the backburner I am surprised it hasn't fallen off.

-
​

Well i am guessing from where you posted this topic. That you may be reformed, if so, that will be the type of preaching you will get from reformed.

If you want free grace preaching, you need a free grace preacher. Here is a link to a free grace website that has excellent articles and videos on the security Christ offers the believer. Which is not based on the way a believer is living their life. It is based on God's promised that all who believe in Jesus will never perish.

It is not all who believe in Jesus and avoid falling (into sin) will never perish.

Here is the link to free grace theology https://faithalone.org/

 

[BNR32FAN]

To me it seems that many evangelical preachers that I have listening to (with extended loyalty to His ministry) do not have the confidence in Christ's once and for all atonement for our sins to preach it. They communicate that His work of justification may be negated or overturned by our lack of sanctification. I have often heard from then of Jesus's warnings in parable form about the bridesmaids' unfilled oil lamps or the workers of good deeds being told that "He never knew them". I take those warnings to refer to those who Jesus genuinely never knew, not those who had a saving faith but somehow missed the mark and took the Lord's rejection.
Much preaching seems to me to be compromised, intended to keep the people from antinomianism or worse keeping them through guilt committed to the pastor's ministry. It's playing the authority card rather than releasing the people with the Good News. When was the last time I was reminded of the wonderful saving plan of God, through His glorious son, to deepen my love for Him and walk with Him.
I am in a Methodist church now (we are in a rural setting) and even Wesley with his arminianism would be perplexed by the social gospel/legalism/ we are all on the same road theology we are getting now. But that's a slightly different problem, but again the atonement and the wonder of Christ is put so far on the backburner I am surprised it hasn't fallen off.

Well you have passages like John 15:1-7 Galatians 5:4 and James 5:19-20 that do indicate that believers can fall away. These passages are just as much of the gospel as the rest of the New Testament. They shouldn’t be overlooked. You should be thankful that these men do preach these passages, many preachers out there won’t because they contradict their theology so they steer clear of them.

 

[moonbeam]

Just surrender yourself... and fall... eyes closed and arms outstretched... into His loving arms...

For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. - Isaiah 54:10
.

 

[hopeforhappiness]

-
​

Well i am guessing from where you posted this topic. That you may be reformed, if so, that will be the type of preaching you will get from reformed.

If you want free grace preaching, you need a free grace preacher. Here is a link to a free grace website that has excellent articles and videos on the security Christ offers the believer. Which is not based on the way a believer is living their life. It is based on God's promised that all who believe in Jesus will never perish.

It is not all who believe in Jesus and avoid falling (into sin) will never perish.

Here is the link to free grace theology Grace Evangelical Society

Thanks for this. But what do you think of BNR32FAN's problem verses which speak against such security? What of God pruning those who are in Christ but who do not produce fruit?

 

[d taylor]

Thanks for this. But what do you think of BNR32FAN's problem verses which speak against such security? What of God pruning those who are in Christ but who do not produce fruit?

-
​

I do not pay attention to his post now, as we have in the past debated this. So there is nothing the two of us agree on about Eternal Life salvation, he basically has a catholic approach to salvation.

But addressing God pruning those who are in Christ, but who do not produce fruit.

This article should address what you are asking Believers Who Play With Fire Get Burned – John 15:6

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

The historical bibiblical view of the question is here:

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints

Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, "He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end" (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He

www.ligonier.org

The Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (7): Scriptural Proofs - Heidelberg Theological Seminary

The Scriptures abound with references concerning the certainty of our salvation which God has given us in His sovereign grace. This should not surprise us since the Bible is unified […]

heidelbergseminary.org

Being that this is a reformed forums debating the issue is not allowed.

Augustine on Romans 8- For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing

In Him

Bill

 

[hedrick]

It is virtually impossible to solve insecurity doctrinally. At first glance, Reformed theology would appear to deal with insecurity. The problem is that even Reformed believers fall away. This is no problem doctrinally: they are assumed not to have been elect in the first place. But this raises the problem of how to be confident that you are elect. Historically that led to presumtpive signs of election, which turns into looking to works.

I think about all your can say is that you can trust Christ for salvation, and that trust will never be misplaced. This raises the problem that there are people who have genuine faith and trust in Christ that most readers of this forum would say can't possibly be saved. I think I'd stick with justification by faith, and not people's concept of who can and can't be saved.

 

[Jo555]

Hi. Most of us, if not all, can relate in one way or another.

I grew up in the faith movement that, several, branched out on their own and lost their root. I felt like such a failure and disappointment to God when i failed.

We have two choices. We can let our grief turn us to the dark side and make it our mission to annihilate them, or we can take our grief and anger to God and as we do, and give the vision He gives us time to grow, and go through the labor pains with Him, He can birth something through us by his Spirit that can nourish others, and bring change.

Unfortunately, too many times I've seen that glorious process hijacked by the enemy and the ones that come out of the grievous place, or situation, can then seem worse than where they came out of, the culprit often being pride as i see it.

But i hear ya. Been there too more than once and have had to keep it in prayer while guarding my heart.

 

[Jo555]

On the other thing ...

I am fully secure in my salvation, but I won't deny that there are verses that seem to imply that one can lose their salvation.

I'm of the opinion from what i know of scripture that those of us that have truly come to salvation, by grace through faith, will be saved as He is committed to seeing us through, not because of our faithfulness, but because of his for He cannot deny Himself, or who He is.

There are also other scriptures that warn of certain behaviors and such, but then He says He's committed to seeing us through.

So I don't deny those scriptures, but i see them in light of what i intimately know of Him.

And fear just points back to us and makes us self-conscious. The law, fear, guilt and condemnation, self-consciousness are all intwined. We can't grow in Him that way. Only by looking to Him and getting that vision of Him by his Spirit through the finished work of Christ can we grow and move forward.