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I don't know which "one".....

BobRyan

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Bob, it would be more accurate for me to say that for those aspects of the Christian Faith or the Bible which I didn't have a clear understanding earlier on, I have a better but as yet still incomplete understanding now.
Would you agree that this is the case with all of us? Even though we are in a given denomination?
In my case, I've had a bit of a different journey in traversing through the Christian faith where I wasn't so much looking for "the right denomination" as I was simply looking for answers as to 'why' I could think any of it to be true. What this means is that while I've done a lot of research, my overall view hasn't shifted in position much from where it began; instead it has grown where it was all along.

For my part, and although I could be wrong, I don't think any of us has enough overall information to know with certainty that our commitments we may each make to a specific denomination's theological statements fully attain to some notion we have of "The Truth."
No doubt few to none of us would claim that we know all of infinite Truth.

But the elephant in the living room - has to do with the obvious fact that there are a many contradictory view between groups and so it is not possible that all are right. At most one is... at worst none are. That is the simple fact of it.

The idea that you never changed any of your doctrinal positions but rather have only doubled down with more detail on the ones you started with -- is quite a statement.
 
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BobRyan

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So, no. Where the Bible is concerned, I honestly can't say that I've started with any certainties in understanding that I later had to discard. I've questioned the Christian Faith in all of its points ever since the day I first seriously opened a Bible and began to read. Through that, I've avoided any firm commitments to ideas or interpretations of the Bible that I didn't know to be significantly justified and true.
I can identify with that to an extent
 
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BobRyan

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I already know that these churches won't mind so much that I lean toward evolutionary thought where science is concerned and that my epistemology regarding how I engage the Bible is anything but fundamentalistic in tone.
In your preference for evolution over the Bible - or evolution-in-the-Bible did you somehow discover Moses to be a darwinist? Do you think that the newly freed slaves from Egypt (his readers) would have very creatively read Darwinism into his text?

Does the Ex 20:11 goes-to Gen 2:2-3 link lead the reader to suspect that Moses is trying to convey the idea of long-ages-Darwinism to his readers? Or does that idea need to be comfortably eisegeted into the text to get it to work - in your POV?

Or is this the sort of scenario that leads you to the conclusion that you have found yet another place where the Bible is in error?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If the Bible is accurate/trustworthy is some places and in error in others - what mechanism do you use to declare a given Bible text to be in error?

It's not a singular mechanism that is applied, Bob, whatever a singular mechanism could possibly be. Rather, from my standpoint, evaluating the contents of both the Bible and the veracity of various denominationally discerned beliefs comes via a conglomeration of many interdisciplinary fields of study (i.e. through more or less scientific and academic study) that make up my hermeneutical praxis.

For some aspects of the Bible, it doesn't always come down to an 'either/or' finality, where we either know some statement to be true or to not be true. Some things in the Bible I think we can all know with some degree of confidence, but there are some things in the Bible that we don't know about and, more than likely, we will never know about with certainty in this lifetime. And I'm ok with this being the case since it just goes along with having a scientific outlook. Of course, not everyone is ok with this. Those sorts of people want to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Bible is an absolute, concrete and fully integrated revelation, or else they think it's not worth the paper it's printed on. For them, it's "all or nothing."
 
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2PhiloVoid

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In your preference for evolution over the Bible - or evolution-in-the-Bible did you somehow discover Moses to be a darwinist? Do you think that the newly freed slaves from Egypt (his readers) would have very creatively read Darwinism into his text?
No, I don't think Moses was a Darwinian evolutionist, nor was Jesus or any of His earliest disciples. I doubt that any of them read, studied or pondered over Lucretius' evolutionary-ist poem during their lives in the 1st century.

There's a slight chance Paul may have known about someone like Lucretius, but even as studied as Paul was, I don't see any historical reason to think he read much more than a small modicum of the Greek and Roman philosophers and poets of his time.
Does the Ex 20:11 goes-to Gen 2:2-3 link lead the reader to suspect that Moses is trying to convey the idea of long-ages-Darwinism to his readers? Or does that idea need to be comfortably eisegeted into the text to get it to work - in your POV?
No, I think Moses believed in an essentially 6 day creation account, one that would be appropriate to his own limited understanding for his time and culture. There's no reason for me to think Moses was an evolutionist of any sort. And, what's more, I don't have a need to know that he might have been an evolutionist for me to respect his place in the prophetic history of God's order of the world ...

... besides, being the hermeneuticist that I try to be, I prefer solid Biblical Exegesis over eisegesis.

But again, that's the rub: I've always more or less been an evolutionist, ever since I started reading those Dinosaur books at age 6. So, I've had to work through this clash of perspectives all my life. I count myself lucky [blessed] to be "able to believe" at all. ;)


Or is this the sort of scenario that leads you to the conclusion that you have found yet another place where the Bible is in error?

I'm not going to answer that because doing so won't enlighten or edify anyone here, and I'm not in this thread to put up road blocks or "gotcha moments" for others to stumble over.
 
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eleos1954

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Well, I definitely can agree that a church needs to be Christ-centered, but the part of it where it's "Bible Only" is going to be a big stretch to accept for someone like myself.
The Bible is complete truth ... if one goes outside of it one is subject to deception and lies. We use the Bible to discern what is truth.
 
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BobRyan

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No, I don't think Moses was a Darwinian evolutionist, nor was Jesus or any of His earliest disciples. I doubt that any of them read, studied or pondered over Lucretius' evolutionary-ist poem during their lives in the 1st century.
Which leads us to the conclusion that the Bible does not teach Darwinism in any form.

So the next question is - does the Bible address the topic of origins? Of the origin of all life on Earth? Of how humans came to be?
If so - does it also give a time frame... in the text? in your POV.
No, I think Moses believed in an essentially 6 day creation account, one that would be appropriate to his own limited understanding for his time and culture.
And is it true in his case that "all scripture is given by inspiration from God and is to be used for doctrine"? 2 Tim 3:16 -- or was Moses simply coming up with a story that fit his best guess - in your POV?
There's no reason for me to think Moses was an evolutionist of any sort.
agreed.
And, what's more, I don't have a need to know that he might have been an evolutionist for me to respect his place in the prophetic history of God's order of the world ...
Even members of other non-Christian religions might accept some sort of historicity for the person "Moses".

The question is -- how far can we go in dismissing what he wrote as simply "his own best ideas"?
But again, that's the rub: I've always more or less been an evolutionist, ever since I started reading those Dinosaur books at age 6.
Ok so we can see how reading certain dinosaur books would lead to acceptance of evolution.
Can we also see that reading Gen 1-2 and Ex 20:11 would lead to acceptance of Creationism by the same rule of thumb, the same logic?
 
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BobRyan

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Well, I definitely can agree that a church needs to be Christ-centered, but the part of it where it's "Bible Only" is going to be a big stretch to accept for someone like myself.
which of your doctrines would you say is not found in the Bible?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Which leads us to the conclusion that the Bible does not teach Darwinism in any form.

So the next question is - does the Bible address the topic of origins? Of the origin of all life on Earth? Of how humans came to be?
If so - does it also give a time frame... in the text? in your POV.

And is it true in his case that "all scripture is given by inspiration from God and is to be used for doctrine"? 2 Tim 3:16 -- or was Moses simply coming up with a story that fit his best guess - in your POV?

agreed.

Even members of other non-Christian religions might accept some sort of historicity for the person "Moses".

The question is -- how far can we go in dismissing what he wrote as simply "his own best ideas"?

Ok so we can see how reading certain dinosaur books would lead to acceptance of evolution.
Can we also see that reading Gen 1-2 and Ex 20:11 would lead to acceptance of Creationism by the same rule of thumb, the same logic?

Bob, which forum area are we in... ? And what is its Statement of Purpose?
 
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HTacianas

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HT, my internal conflict is an epistemological one rather than a theological one. It's not that I've begun within some one form of Christianity and awoken to deconstruct my my out of it and into some other version of Christianity. No, I've begun from within my own family where notions of science and skepticism reigned.

For me, it's instead been a long journey of trying to find my way through the perspective of someone like Carl Sagan and into the presence of Jesus Christ. ............. See the difference?

Being that I engage the Christian Faith more as an ongoing epistemological journey rather than as an arrival at a destination of Truth in the here and now, I'm essentially existential and evidential in my approach. And in concordance with that view, I need a church that can accommodate me rather than see me as a novice pupil in need of further mentoring.

I also need a church that doesn't throw 1 Corinthians 8:2 at me at the drop of a hat every time I counter with an alternative point of understanding.

It's sounding more and more like you're looking for a church that will allow you to debate whether or not God exists. A Church is not the place for that. Going into a Church the existence of God is a given. Going past that, in a Christian Church at least, you could go and epistemologically sort through two thousand years of Christian history if you'd like. But going in and beginning debates with laymen who may or may not be familiar with the subject matter isn't going to be allowed. You're better off doing that here.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It's sounding more and more like you're looking for a church that will allow you to debate whether or not God exists. A Church is not the place for that. Going into a Church the existence of God is a given. Going past that, in a Christian Church at least, you could go and epistemologically sort through two thousand years of Christian history if you'd like. But going in and beginning debates with laymen who may or may not be familiar with the subject matter isn't going to be allowed. You're better off doing that here.

I'm definitely not looking for a church in which to debate whether or not God exists. As long as I've been on CF, I'm stunned that anyone would think I would.
 
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BobRyan

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Well, I definitely can agree that a church needs to be Christ-centered, but the part of it where it's "Bible Only" is going to be a big stretch to accept for someone like myself.
Sola scriptura testing is what some denominations use (such as the one I attend). That means all tradition and doctrine must be vetted against the Bible - tested by scripture -- as in Acts 17:11 . You can also see it in Mark 7:7-13 where even the supposedly infallible tradition of the One True Nation church started by God at Sinai - was being slam-hammered by Christ in Mark 7 "Sola Scriptura".

It does not mean that only the Bible is true or that only the Bible is correct. It means all things must be tested by it.
 
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BobRyan

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For some aspects of the Bible, it doesn't always come down to an 'either/or' finality, where we either know some statement to be true or to not be true. Some things in the Bible I think we can all know with some degree of confidence, but there are some things in the Bible that we don't know about and, more than likely, we will never know about with certainty in this lifetime. And I'm ok with this being the case since it just goes along with having a scientific outlook. Of course, not everyone is ok with this. Those sorts of people want to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Bible is an absolute, concrete and fully integrated revelation, or else they think it's not worth the paper it's printed on. For them, it's "all or nothing."
You appear to be conflating two different topics.

1. What I am talking about is the clear statements in God's Word where even you agree that Moses is not even remotely teaching Darwinism but rather is conveying the teaching of a literal creation week. It is not hard to read and it is not reasonable to suggest that Moses' readers would be eisegeting highly creative inserts into the text to get Moses' text to be about long ages of time and slow adaptation. So when it comes to that basic point - there is nothing there about "too difficult to see the obvious intent of the author" as can be seen by the fact that both you and I have agreed on the intent as seen in the text even though one of us affirms evolution and the other does not.

2. What you have introduced in your statement above is the fact that none of us knows every last detail of scripture. The totality of scripture has a scope far beyond what any of us has yet comprehended. So "yeah" that is certainly a fact we can all agree on.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, which forum area are we in... ? And what is its Statement of Purpose?
Your topic is about finding a denomination that fits your particular POV - and you said a difficulty you are having is the idea of the Bible always being true etc I simply picked an example case for the sake of discussion. In any case as to my comment that you replied to - you already agreed with me that the text of scripture is not teaching Darwinism at all, so this part is not even a difference.

I am simply exploring how you sort that out -- since this is one of the things you say is keeping you from selecting a denomination to join.
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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they're all flawed in one way or another. at the very least though a "non-denominational" church that is at least Lutheran -esque with Real Presence and justification etc, that's my essentials, so basically Lutheran Brethren. then you can work you're way up to Liturgical later; the only thing is the eucharist is monthly there unlike weekly in LCMS--- but once you understand how the whole point and lead up of the liturgy is to the eucharist you'll go to the LCMS; that's why I say the Lutheran Brethren is like a Baptist church 3/4 weeks because their's neither liturgy nor Lord's Supper most of the time
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Your topic is about finding a denomination that fits your particular POV - and you said a difficulty you are having is the idea of the Bible always being true etc I simply picked an example case for the sake of discussion. In any case as to my comment that you replied to - you already agreed with me that the text of scripture is not teaching Darwinism at all, so this part is not even a difference.

I am simply exploring how you sort that out -- since this is one of the things you say is keeping you from selecting a denomination to join.

Bob, I'm not here to "defend" my point of view. Let's just drop this tangent you've introduced, alright? I'm way more adept in my learning on these topics than I always have the time to verbalize and demonstrate, and the scholars I draw from are more substantial than you're aware of, so let's just spare us both some wasted time from debates in which neither of us will change our minds.

I want you to know, however, that I do appreciate your input here, even if for no other reason than to shore up what I've already surmised about how well I can or cannot fit in with any one specific denomination.

Thanks, bro!
 
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PloverWing

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The churches that I used to attend in the past wouldn't put up with me now (e.g. Southern Baptist, or Christian Church/Church of Christ, etc.)

Sorry if this is an obvious solution that you've already tried, but:

If you're basically happy with a Baptist-style approach to Christian faith and practice, but are finding yourself clashing with the SBC in its current form, would something like the American Baptists or the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship work for you? I think that both of these groups are open to modern scholarship regarding the Bible and science and so forth.

I'm not sure exactly where these two groups stand on the divisive ethical issues that you politely refrained from naming earlier in the thread. My sense is that it varies by congregation, so much may depend on the particular congregations near you.

I watched the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship form, back in the 1980s, as I watched the SBC swing to the right. I think the CBF were trying to preserve the Baptist freedom of conscience, together with openness to scholarship, so that's why I'm thinking they might be a fit for you.
 
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Just Somebody

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Honestly, Maria, I'm not really "seeking" a denomination. I'm more or less wishing there was a church in my area that could be more philosophically open to theological exploration where the Bible is concerned rather than focusing so much on reading it in a dogmatic fashion. But I think I get what you're saying. Some of what you're saying here partly reflects my own feeling about being caught in a sort of American Catch-22, where churches here these days tend to be either politically charged on either the left or the right and are more interested in the outcomes of their own political outlooks than they are with merely 'being Christian.'

OR something like that. ;) Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I don't post much, but I read a lot of what's posted here, and I've always find your post thoughtful, and I think you and I probably have a lot in common in regards to our approach to our faith.

Keep looking, those churches exist, but they are probably not large, or part of big denominations. I've found one, it's not perfect, but what you expect in church full of sinners.

I left my previous church for a number of reasons, but one was that I could no longer put aside the many questions I had on my broadly Calvinist/ Evangelical approach to Christianity, and the there's no way I could have asked the questions I had in that church.

In fact I left with my faith somewhat in tatters, as the facts I knew from science & history did not align with the approach to understanding the bible that I was taught or believed.

I've ended up in a place were my faith is much stronger, my theology isn't a whole lot different (still broadly Calvinistic / Evangelical), but my understanding of the Bible and what's important in the Christian faith is fundamentally changed. I believe what God asks us to believe is a much smaller set of beliefs than what is demanded by the various denominations. In fact, I'd suggest that the reason there is so much difference and disagreement in the Christian Church is they are arguing over things that are actually core or necessary part of the Christian Faith at all. I'm able to reconcile my faith with the facts science and history. I don't have all the answers, but that doesn't really matter. I know in whom I have believed!

So back to a church. The one I attend aligns focuses on the basics of being a faithful believer. Trusting God, Jesus work on the cross and living through the power of the Holy Spirit and loving others. We have a huge cross section of political beliefs, theological beliefs and probably beliefs of every other sort. But it works, because the focus is on what we agree on, rather than where we disagree.

There some of us the incline more academically. But we don't raise those questions in church. We discuss them amongst ourselves so not to distract from the unity.

So unless you are from rural Ontario, my church probably won't be a help to you, but just an encouragement that churches are out there.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sorry if this is an obvious solution that you've already tried, but:

If you're basically happy with a Baptist-style approach to Christian faith and practice, but are finding yourself clashing with the SBC in its current form, would something like the American Baptists or the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship work for you? I think that both of these groups are open to modern scholarship regarding the Bible and science and so forth.

I'm not sure exactly where these two groups stand on the divisive ethical issues that you politely refrained from naming earlier in the thread. My sense is that it varies by congregation, so much may depend on the particular congregations near you.

I watched the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship form, back in the 1980s, as I watched the SBC swing to the right. I think the CBF were trying to preserve the Baptist freedom of conscience, together with openness to scholarship, so that's why I'm thinking they might be a fit for you.

Honestly, I'm not specific as to the style of worship. If anything, I probably prefer a more casual, 'emergent' style of worship. I can also go in for the trimmed down Baptist style or, at times, even for the Liturgical style of more traditional churches.

The American Baptist church has been an option on my list, but unfortunately, the town that I live in doesn't really have that sort of church on its buffet of options. In fact, it very nearly doesn't even have a viable Episcopalian church to speak of and there's no trace of any Cooperative Baptist Fellowship churches in my area either.

....... I'm not saying this to make you feel bad, it's just a fact. Please know your thoughts are always very much appreciated, though, PloverWing. Thank you for the suggestions.
 
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I don't post much, but I read a lot of what's posted here, and I've always find your post thoughtful, and I think you and I probably have a lot in common in regards to our approach to our faith.

Keep looking, those churches exist, but they are probably not large, or part of big denominations. I've found one, it's not perfect, but what you expect in church full of sinners.

I left my previous church for a number of reasons, but one was that I could no longer put aside the many questions I had on my broadly Calvinist/ Evangelical approach to Christianity, and the there's no way I could have asked the questions I had in that church.

In fact I left with my faith somewhat in tatters, as the facts I knew from science & history did not align with the approach to understanding the bible that I was taught or believed.

I've ended up in a place were my faith is much stronger, my theology isn't a whole lot different (still broadly Calvinistic / Evangelical), but my understanding of the Bible and what's important in the Christian faith is fundamentally changed. I believe what God asks us to believe is a much smaller set of beliefs than what is demanded by the various denominations. In fact, I'd suggest that the reason there is so much difference and disagreement in the Christian Church is they are arguing over things that are actually core or necessary part of the Christian Faith at all. I'm able to reconcile my faith with the facts science and history. I don't have all the answers, but that doesn't really matter. I know in whom I have believed!

So back to a church. The one I attend aligns focuses on the basics of being a faithful believer. Trusting God, Jesus work on the cross and living through the power of the Holy Spirit and loving others. We have a huge cross section of political beliefs, theological beliefs and probably beliefs of every other sort. But it works, because the focus is on what we agree on, rather than where we disagree.

There some of us the incline more academically. But we don't raise those questions in church. We discuss them amongst ourselves so not to distract from the unity.

So unless you are from rural Ontario, my church probably won't be a help to you, but just an encouragement that churches are out there.

I can see you've had your own ups and downs with all this and that your experiences reflects certain hurdles I've faced in and among churches over the past few decades. You're right---the church I'm "looking for" probably exist somewhere, even if they're smaller and don't have the nice sanctuary and the lit billboard out front.

I'll try to keep in mind your encouragement. It is needed because even thought I can't say my situation is an exigency, it is frustrating to me, especially so since it's been difficult to try to find a church that is both stable or growing and one that both my wife and son would feel comfortable at. ........... Or, maybe I'll have to start one of "my own" groups. :rolleyes:

Thank you for taking the time to respond here. That means something to me, brother!
 
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