I dont have saving faith

I first came to faith about 15 years ago. About 4 years after that, I drank alcohol heavily every day for 8 years. I felt terribly guilty about my drinking and I knew well that I was doing the wrong thing. But I continued drinking. During those years, I genuinely thought that God had more or less abandoned me and that my life would never get better.

I am now in my third year where I have not touched a drink and I sincerely believe that it is God who helped me to overcome this problem.

Sometimes when life is difficult, when we think we have missed valuable opportunities or done regrettable things, it is easy to think that God has given up on us and we begin to see ourselves as useless and worthless. But that is not the way God sees us. We are very precious in His sight, and although sometimes we can be unfaithful and disobedient, God still cares for us deeply and His faithfulness never fails.

RobertZ said:

I dont understand something, if everyones sins were placed on Jesus at the cross then why does anyone go to hell?

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robert....the reason people go to hell is because they don't put their trust in Jesus and they don't obey Him. the Lord Jesus will save anyone who comes to him in repentance and faith. (repentance and faith are actually gifts that God gives to us "so that no one can boast"). so that means, if a person tells the Lord Jesus that "i am ready to turn from my sins" (using His strength....it takes the supernatural strength of Jesus to help us turn from our sins day by day. we are not going to be perfect but what we do is "change directions", its a lifestyle change, from doing whatever i want to do, ie: lying, to doing what God wants me to do, ie: telling the truth. and we will mess up sometimes but thats what mercy is for), and if they believe that Jesus died on the cross to save them from their sins and from hell.......then the Lord Jesus will save them.
so people that go to hell are those that refuse to put their trust in Jesus and refuse to turn from their wicked ways.

Never mind.

Jesus said he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.
Since Jesus is Truth and His words shall not pass away,
I have to believe that proverbs 1 is describing hell as it sounds the same as Jesus describes it.
It is the only way that it agrees with All the rest of scripture, such as psalms ch 9 verse 10.


Robert you are seeking God therefore you are not forsaken.

Psalm 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Jesus said verily verily I say unto you,he that believeth on Me has everlasting life.

Jesus said , he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.


The bible says whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord SHALL be saved.

SHALL not maybe.

The scripture cannot be broken.

We are not only allowed to repent but commanded to and that is awesome proof of God's love and Him not willing than any perish.


Robert you absolutely cannot want Jesus in and of yourself, scripture shows this.

Romans

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Father God is the only one who reveals that Jesus is Saviour flesh and blood cannot do this.

As far as Hebrews 10 goes,

If a person stops sinning wilfully and repents and asks Jesus to have mercy on them and forgive them and save them from their sins,

then they no longer need to have the fearful expectation of the judgement to come.

This agrees with Jesus saying he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.

As well as if we confess our sins Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.






if any person , preacher , or even an angel contradicts Jesus Words I am going to believe Jesus above them.Jesus is Truth and His Words SHALL not pass away.

Jesus said he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.

The Lord has not forsaken those who seek Him.

If we confess our sins Jesus will forgive them.

The scripture cannot be broken

You Robert are seeking Jesus because Jesus loves you deeply and He will bring you through all this.

The bible says hope is not disappointed.

To be devoid of The Holy Spirit means you have no desire, nor regret, nor any emotion left for any of God's word. You are cast dead to caring about wrong as well!

Cut of is dead to Him or His good!


In your case Robert you hold onto what you percieve to be the truth though the truth you look up to - brings you judgement and not grace - yet you serve such a truth - so yes I can understand a little how bad you must be feeling by now and how desperate your situation must seem - for God's loving truth is no longer present in your heart making it grief.

Yet surely you must wonder why would a perfect loving God would treat you like that - especially when He saved all of humanity - as He says - John 3:16, 1 Tim 4:9-10! So please consider this - could it be that your judgementy has got you court out? As it seems to me that you can't forgive yourself for not heeding God earlier and now drag yourself down into the pit doing that?

Ough such would grief The Spirit of Christ I'm sure! He paid your price and now your judgement has displaced Him as King of your reality

For isn't this is the truth you are feeling? Sadness that sin rules? And so Jesus griefs that you wouldn't heed His loving forgiveness, but listen to the spirit of judgement and not Him - for Jesus's Spirit brings Rest and Peace to those who mourn sin - not judgement.

Please remember Robert you have to believe the truth and let go of what is not truthful - do this until the darkness passes - faith is what you need then - even if your whole inner reality screams the opposite - The Truth and nothing else - until Jesus comes - if you run short on faith - just ask for more - after Jesus comes believing wont be hard - for then you will know Him and the evil who had you trapped will be gone into judgement instead of you - I'm sure you will cry tears of sorrow then - seeing the hurt sin caused Him - though such will make you very glad. (Is 53, Rev 1)

Behold Jesus says, I'm coming soon! (hold onto that!)

RobertZ said:

I dont think I am, I think im being honest with myself and what you have described as to being the unforgivable sin I can see how it applies to me. Gods spirit enlightened me time and time again about my sin that I was living in and yet I kept on in my rebellion.

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RobertZ said:

Take Paul for example, suppose after he had his encounter with God on the road to damascus that instead of heeding Gods call he continued on in his sins killing Christians? You dont think that that continued rebellion after God enlightened him to his sin would eventually lead to him committing the unpardonable sin? Continuing in sin after God has told you its sin?

Ever read Hebrews 10:26-31? That passage of scripture does not speak very lightly about continued willfull sinning after recieving the knowledge of the truth.

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I think Paul may have heard much about Jesus when Jesus was healing and preaching to multitudes.
I think Paul may well have heard about Jesus rising from the dead.People must have been talking about it.
When Paul was hauling christians in and making a case against them, he must have heard and knew what they preached in order to accuse them.
He must have known some of their doctrines in order to be so against them as to have them killed.
I just think Paul must have been exposed to some of the Truth of the gospel, long before he got saved.
However God in great mercy and compassion, took this chief of sinners and rather than harden His heart even further went to great lengths to save him.Showing how much He is not willing that any perish.
I do not think that Paul was just showing false humilty when he called himself the chief of sinners, he knew he was a great sinner, he recognized his great sin just like we all do.
Yet Paul understood Jesus power to forgive sin and Jesus great love and mercy and compassion.

Like the song says

Grace that is greater than all my sin.

Paul knew what a wonderful Saviour Jesus is.He saves to the uttermost.
Jesus has infinite power to save.
Nothing is impossible to Jesus.

also you cannot want God by yourself.

Since you want Jesus , that is evidence that Jesus is calling you.

Also you know that Jesus is Saviour and Lord

and only God reveals that , not flesh and blood.

You also say God called you in the past

and the bible says that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

blessings Robert

Jesus loves you and Jesus wants you

the question was "I dont understand something, if everyones sins were placed on Jesus at the cross then why does anyone go to hell?"

Why?

Because 'love' is desire.
When I desire my wife, I don't go 'bed hopping' and 'wife shopping'.
I'm after her.

Desiring that, I leave every other one aside.

That is what we are doing we are using HIS LOVE and desiring HIM above others.
We don't have love (in and of ourselves) it is HIMSELF that is LOVE.
(GOD IS LOVE). HE doesn't have it - HE is it!

When we get saved, we receive HIS LOVE in us.

The problem is we all have a sin nature that 'lusts'. (love turned inward to self).
It doesn't want to love GOD or others, it may do good, but only for its own self reward.
Like good service at a store, they serve and 'love' you as long as you pay them.

But real love, is always outward -love to our fellow man (without reward) love for GOD without promise.

The lost/ the wicked/ and those religious christians as well, don't realize (and can't realize) that love is for others - especially the least. The very ones that CANT pay back! But this real love only wants acceptance, its not looking for 'pay back', not looking for the money or the reward - its looking for only acceptance.

You see love itself, is its own reward!

The ones going to hell, is because they never received (nor wanted) HIS LOVE (HIMSELF) and willingly chose love of self (lust) and like someone making poor decisions or bad choices, never realized 'what they could have had'.

They willing choose hell, not realizing it until its too late.

When were you hungry LORD? etc... (Matthew 25:44)

-eric

ezeric said:

the question was "I dont understand something, if everyones sins were placed on Jesus at the cross then why does anyone go to hell?"

Why?

Because 'love' is desire.
When I desire my wife, I don't go 'bed hopping' and 'wife shopping'.
I'm after her.

Desiring that, I leave every other one aside.

That is what we are doing we are using HIS LOVE and desiring HIM above others.
We don't have love (in and of ourselves) it is HIMSELF that is LOVE.
(GOD IS LOVE). HE doesn't have it - HE is it!

When we get saved, we receive HIS LOVE in us.

The problem is we all have a sin nature that 'lusts'. (love turned inward to self).
It doesn't want to love GOD or others, it may do good, but only for its own self reward.
Like good service at a store, they serve and 'love' you as long as you pay them.

But real love, is always outward -love to our fellow man (without reward) love for GOD without promise.

The lost/ the wicked/ and those religious christians as well, don't realize (and can't realize) that love is for others - especially the least. The very ones that CANT pay back! But this real love only wants acceptance, its not looking for 'pay back', not looking for the money or the reward - its looking for only acceptance.

You see love itself, is its own reward!

The ones going to hell, is because they never received (nor wanted) HIS LOVE (HIMSELF) and willingly chose love of self (lust) and like someone making poor decisions or bad choices, never realized 'what they could have had'.

They willing choose hell, not realizing it until its too late.

When were you hungry LORD? etc... (Matthew 25:44)

-eric

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The main reason people end up in hell is because they served the lie and not the truth. So when the truth exposes their lies they burn brightly, such loss of life hurts badly - as the truth is reinstalled as boss over life.

And yes Christ did pay for all sin - but if we don't want His payment for self-judgement appeals more than there is indeed little Jesus can do for us - for He died to judgement and has no existence in that whatsoever. It is for that reason that the second death is utterly godforsaken.

However forgiveness means that your life - though it has been build by lies - is taken into the His Truth - so you are saved regardless of what you have done - for that is what the truth says He will do if you come.

So sin doesn't end in Hell with Jesus in charge - for if we confess our crimes to perfect love and ask for forgiveness we shall be saved - no matter what we have not all done.

It is only those stubborn lies living in us and bring death, imprisonment and slavery, that miss out - good riddance to bad music - for lies never brought about God's good - but rather took it away in first place. (Gen 3)

Christus Victor
RobertZ

RobertZ said:

Thank you, that was a bit encouraging and I really am hoping that maybe I am just going through some of the same stuff that earlier people such as charles spurgeon and john bunyan went through.

That is what it is Robert, the same time thing they went through and others,and I also went through it and I know how terrible it is.

Problem is though that I have been in this state of despair for nearly 2yrs now and my faith what little of it is left is on very shaky ground. At times I feel like a complete apostate such as those of Hebrews 6:4-6.

apostates do not like to retain God in thier knowledge.You however hope and long for Jesus love and mercy and forgiveness, which Jesus already freely gives you Robert.However the terror makes it feel differently.
Nothing is impossible for Jesus Robert.
You are not impossible, not by a long shot.
God is not willing for any to preish.
Therefore if nothing is impossible for God
and God is not willing that any perish
all Jesus needs is for us to come
that is all He needs.
You Robert have come to Him
and you Robert are not cast out.
You Robert are safe in Jesus hand.

I try to read my Bible but most of the time I feel so dead inside while reading it,

those feelings can be very intense I know,
But they are just feelings and in no way reflect the Truth of Jesus promise that he that cometh to Jesus, Jesus will in no wise cast out.

its as if Im getting nothing out of it and the tears of despair began to trickle down my face

my heart breaks for you as I know how that feels
the terror and despair and such will not last forever Robert
Jesus will take them away and wipe all tears from your eyes.
His mercy endures forever and is too hard to understand in our natural minds


as I think about this man Jesus Christ who I will never get to know because I didnt come when he called.

The gifts and calling of God are without repentace.

Im sorry, I know I sound all negative and depressing but man thats just the way I spend most of my days now.

who would not feel that way thinking that these horrible feelings are real,
I understand how hurt you feel.
But Robert Jesus has you safe and you will not always feel this way.

Yesterday at the Easter Church Service I hoped that my heart would be moved, I hoped I would feel the tug from God on my heart the way I used to feel it when I was a young child....

He did tug on your heart Robert and that is why you were hoping.
However the terror and despair made it seem differently.
It is impossible to know that Jesus is Saviour and Lord and to want Jesus and His mercy and salvation without God.


.....but..........nothing happened, nothing.

God hears the cry of your heart Robert,
wait on God and you will see
Something is happening that you cannot tell in the natural
God is holding you and keeping you Robert

Its as if God has just decided to completely remove all saving grace from me.

Those feelings seem real and intense,
Yet they are not dependable and not Truth
Jesus is Truth
Jesus will in no wise cast you out

One early morning about a year ago as I was awaking from sleep I was frightened at the fact that I woke myself up speaking the words (The covenant has been lifted forever) It was my own audible voice speaking but it was as if some external force was controlling it, forcing me to say these words! I remember thinking to myself what did that mean? I have often wondered if God was telling me that the Covenant of his Grace had been lifted from me, its now out of my reach forever and His mercy will not be applied to me now! can you imagine my terror?!

I can see terror producing such nightmares for sure.
It is not surprising that this terror and accompanying thoughts can produce nightmares.
God can and will heal all this.


Oddly enough the next few days after this my skin would at times burn, it burn as if it were on fire and for about a week the worst dreams I have ever in my life experienced suddenly plagued my nights with dreams of going to hell, or fire coming down from the sky and devouring the enemies of God. Then this passage of scripture came to mind-

I would imagine that all these feelings and thoughts could produce this type of sensations.

"All that remains is a certain fearful looking for of judgement with a fiery indignation that will devour the enemies of God."

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until we come to Jesus and confess our sins
You Robert have done this
Then Jesus forgives our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
Jesus leads us to still waters and restores our soul.
Jesus is our Good Sheperd.


Robert maybe ask Jesus to reveal His mercy and compassion and love and forgiveness to you.
Maybe ask Him to take the terror and despair and all negative feelings from you and to help you.
Maybe ask Him to heal your broken heart.He will Robert.Jesus is very compassionate and merciful.
He already forgives and loves you.
I would love to be able to encourage your wife to not be frustrated or impatient, as this religious melancholy is very real illness and very devasting.
I would love to encourage her to go into deep and fervent prayer for you being moved by compassion and assurance of Jesus unfailing love and mercy, and power to set at liberty the bruised and to heal the broken hearted and to deliver.
we over here will definately be keeping you in prayer as well.

You know Robert the truth you are experiencing is only there because you have sinned as you say and forsaken God in your ways.

The way out is to go to Jesus!!!

This means that you lay down your life for Him - as He did His for you - He will take your hurting life away from you and restore you with us where you belong.

See you sinned! Christ didn't! That is the deal! Your error is that you want to do it yourself and refuse to have faith in Him and his promises. You heed the voice of the destroyer - as if he has any rights on you - can you see the misery he brings - why dine with your enemy when it is Christ that you pine after!

Those who will gnash their teeth are not those who long for God's good to be in them - but for those who rejoiced doing evil - like those lying voices who have you captive and make their life yours and your life theirs - such is the abominable charachter of sin - that is what will gnash its teeth - not you!

But yes a sinner must die to his sinful reality - you as well - and not hold onto it when you see that it is cursed - please know that God has rejected sin - feel the truth inside you burning - so please die to your reality and let His truth raise you to newness of life.

So you must deny the lies of your damnation inside - give those lies back back to those forces who have conquered your heart and tell you such lies in Jesus name - how cursed they truly are - as you can feel daily - for such spirit is devoid of forgiveness or grace and brings what is not good for a child of God!

(Though I have been there myself for many years as well - my stretch was 7 years of deepest depression. Dear Robert - 18 months of those I was suicidally depressed - I begged my wife and kids to let me kill myself - yet Christ got me out of there - in the bottomless pit He found me - when my lies - doubt, judementalness, self-hate, legalism and unbelief - finally burned -up! I have been celebrating the return of goods life since.)

Honestly Robert you have to let go - of all that is doomed in you - just drop it down that dark pit there right below you - and then LOOK UP at Christ - and never look down there again! It is death tempting you to hand over your God given life!


Oh what joy when you will see the truth once more when those lies have died out of you and your good life comes back once more? You will be ecstatic - I was!


We will be waiting for you!!!

RobertZ said:

This passage is being taken completely out of context. This doesnt mean when God calls us that we can say no, walk away and harden our hearts and then expect him to save us when disaster and calamity comes our way. That is why the scripture warns us that "IF TODAY you hear his voice harden not your heart".

The gifts and calling of God are without repentance to those who answere Gods call on Gods terms, not mans terms.

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Here are God's terms

God's terms are very generous and kind and long suffering and patient and loving and gracious and forgiving and healing and easy
just come as you are


now God commands ALL men everywhere to repent


Jesus said ask and you SHALL receive


Jesus said he that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out


if we confess our sins Jesus is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness


whosoever calleth upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved

nothing is impossible to God

who is not willing than any perish


so God commands men to repent and to repent now , not yesterday


and if we hear Him today do not harden our heart today

you are hearing Him through us today

your heart today

at church

Your heart cries for Him and longs for him


that is not you Robert

flesh and blood and the carnal mind cannot want God

it is enmity with God

so the fact you want God is because He wants you

hear Him Robert

please believe the bible

and I will be praying for you

for Jesus to set you at liberty and take the despair away and open your eyes

and free you

Hi Robert

I notice from the above posts, that many of the quotes you referred to come from the book of Hebrews (ie. Chapter 3, Chapter 10).

The book of Hebrews was written at a time when the church faced persecution and Paul wrote this letter as an encouragement to believers to persevere with their faith and not fall away.

There are small parts of the letter which are written in very strong terms, notably Chapters 6 and 10. These refer to people who had been Christians for quite some time, had reached a high level of maturity and experience with their faith, but had deliberately and publically renounced it, totally rejecting Jesus as the son of God and "trampling Him underfoot". Paul realised how difficult it would be to win such people back to the faith, that is probably why he used the term "impossible" in Chapter 6.

For believers like yourself, who want to know and experience more of Christ in their lives (which is very clear from your own concerns about your salvation), this letter should not be seen as condemnatory, but rather an exhortation for them to press on with their faith. It is Paul's letter of encouragement to the early Christians, and it is his letter of encouragement to you!

You talk a lot in your posts about your "heart being hardened" yet you certainly do not come across as being hard-hearted towards God in the slightest. You strike me as being a very sensitive individual, with a tender conscience, and with a great deal of integrity and honesty, to the point that it has left you feeling broken-hearted. From my own understanding of God and the scriptures, it is people of that description who are the closest to His heart.

A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Psalm 51:17

-eric

RobertZ said:

That is whats wrong with me I think, some how growing up in church and being exposed to the gospel all of my 37 years on this earth I have missed the grace of God and now I do not know how to believe.

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The problem here is that you are trying to intellectualize it, when you simply need to be like a child.

Stop trying to feel it and choose it. You understand God's character, then tell Him, God you are good, trustworthy etc, therefore when you said you died for the sins of the world, that includes mine, and although I don't feel anything, I choose as an act of my will to trust that what you say is true

gray100 said:

Hi Robert

I notice from the above posts, that many of the quotes you referred to come from the book of Hebrews (ie. Chapter 3, Chapter 10).

The book of Hebrews was written at a time when the church faced persecution and Paul wrote this letter as an encouragement to believers to persevere with their faith and not fall away.

There are small parts of the letter which are written in very strong terms, notably Chapters 6 and 10. These refer to people who had been Christians for quite some time, had reached a high level of maturity and experience with their faith, but had deliberately and publically renounced it, totally rejecting Jesus as the son of God and "trampling Him underfoot". Paul realised how difficult it would be to win such people back to the faith, that is probably why he used the term "impossible" in Chapter 6.

For believers like yourself, who want to know and experience more of Christ in their lives (which is very clear from your own concerns about your salvation), this letter should not be seen as condemnatory, but rather an exhortation for them to press on with their faith. It is Paul's letter of encouragement to the early Christians, and it is his letter of encouragement to you!

You talk a lot in your posts about your "heart being hardened" yet you certainly do not come across as being hard-hearted towards God in the slightest. You strike me as being a very sensitive individual, with a tender conscience, and with a great deal of integrity and honesty, to the point that it has left you feeling broken-hearted. From my own understanding of God and the scriptures, it is people of that description who are the closest to His heart.

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Most Excellent post and PLEASE Robert pray over it as we do for You still.