I don't get it...

JTM3 · Jun 23, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
I am a spirit-filled, more into Calvinism than I am an Arminianism.

I used to follow Arminianism but over the years, the more I studied, the more I understand God's plan of Salvation and the works of the Holy Spirit, I tend to agree with Calvinism.

Its okay to agree to disagree.

Thanks

New_Wineskin · Jun 23, 2006

JTM3 said:
I don't understand you people...

Well , that's it in a nutshell now , isn't it ?

You don't understand those people and you don't think that they understand your people . Some people do understand each other on this issue . It is then a simple matter of disagreement . It happens .

JTM3 · Jun 23, 2006

New_Wineskin said:
Well , that's it in a nutshell now , isn't it ?

You don't understand those people and you don't think that they understand your people . Some people do understand each other on this issue . It is then a simple matter of disagreement . It happens .

True.

But I was wondering why anyone would want to disagree on thsi.

Would you rather be an "uber" Calvinist and blame sin on God and make God out to be in the image of the Greek Fates?

Or would you rather believe Jesus that he came that we might have life, and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY. Hmmmmmmmmm......

I'll take my abundant life thanks.

Cheers,

JTM3

Tamara224 · Jun 23, 2006

JTM3 said:
True.

But I was wondering why anyone would want to disagree on thsi.

Would you rather be an "uber" Calvinist and blame sin on God and make God out to be in the image of the Greek Fates?

Or would you rather believe Jesus that he came that we might have life, and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY. Hmmmmmmmmm......

I didn't realize it was a choice between those two options....Goodness, that's a silly misstatement of Calvanist doctrine anyway.

I'm not a Calvanist, but I believe in the sovereignty of God (that's not just a Calvinist thing, you know, it comes from the Bible). I also believe that Jesus came that I might have life and have it more abundantly. I just don't believe that means worldly abundance. God doesn't give as man gives.

And again... we don't have the option of choosing doctrine based on which one we would "rather" believe. Our personal preferences are irrelevant, misleading and short-sighted. We should believe the Truth because it's the Truth, not because we'd rather it were that way.

New_Wineskin · Jun 23, 2006

JTM3 said:
True.

But I was wondering why anyone would want to disagree on thsi.

Would you rather be an "uber" Calvinist and blame sin on God and make God out to be in the image of the Greek Fates?

Or would you rather believe Jesus that he came that we might have life, and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY. Hmmmmmmmmm......

I'll take my abundant life thanks.

Cheers,

JTM3

This might be why you don't understand . Making such exagerated accusations about those that you don't understand doesn't help in coming to an understanding - let alone an agreement .

And , it isn't about *wanting* to disagree . I don't *want* to disagree with the Universalists ( not the universal that means "catholic" in this case ) who have a God who has no Hell . Now , *they* really have a belief for more abundance of life - for *everyone* . I don't want to disagree with them - it just so happens that we do .

JTM3 · Jun 23, 2006

Ok well, sorry...maybe you guys can enlightenen me.

Granted, I do wonder about the Holy Sprit's work in Salvation...but I'm not prepared yet (if ever) to say that God controls everything.

Do you have any idea what that implies??????????

I'm not a Greek fatalist...

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 24, 2006

And who is glorified when they attribute their failures to the will and nature of God? Who is justifying themselves at the expense of God? When you read these testimonies about how "faithful" (sic) they are to "suffer for God"... who do you feel like patting on the back? Who is getting the praise? Who is being blamed?
This is the most twisted and convoluted logic in the mere theist bag of errors. They are so intent on justifying their own failures that they do not mind at all blaming God, defaming God, even blaspheming God... and then in a mind boggling display of religion gone to seed, claim that they are "glorifying God" in it all!

TreeOfLife said:
But some people's "truth" is nothing but their own mind rationalizing their own failures away.

It is evidenced by their level of misperceiving condemnation as conviction. I see it rampant and frequent on this forum.

Some have made a doctrine of it. They are easy to spot.

Amplifyme · Jun 24, 2006

JTM3 said:
Why would anyone in their right mind be against PHIA??

Why would anyone not want to believe in prosperity?

As Dids rightly states in his post, if we seek God first, THEN these THINGS shall be added unto us; it's the relationship first, then the benefits.

I don't understand you people...there's nothing mystical about WoF, and we're not manipulating God. We're simply believing his promises.

So what if people don't get healed because THEY lack faith, not because it's a false doctrine??

Why is it so horrible to tell them that? There..

I might be beating a horse, but I think not, especially after certain people continue to post in opposition...

-Just a thought

Prosperity is definatly Biblical and God wants us to be prosperous in every area of our life and to the point to overflow so we can Be a blessing To others!!!
With that said, I would say about telling someone "you lacking faith is the reason you are not healed" is something I would say is not always the best. Atleast thats my opinion. It all depends on ones motives. What would be ones motives to tell someone that?? To bring them down?? To discourage them?? To prove them wrong?? Well I hope not!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because we are to build one another up. WE are to incourage one another! We are to yes correct our brother or sister in Christ but are we doing it out of love??? If someone says that to a person and they feel God wanted them to say it: God: not their flesh, then i would not have a problem with it. I personally have a problem with statements like that if they are said to benefit ones opinin or pride or so forth. So its all in our motives! And What we believe God wants us to do.

JTM3 · Jun 24, 2006

didaskalos said:
And who is glorified when they attribute their failures to the will and nature of God? Who is justifying themselves and the expense of God? When you read these testimonies about how "faithful" (sic) they are to "suffer for God"... who do you feel like patting on the back? Who is getting the praise? Who is being blamed?
This is the most twisted and convoluted logic in the mere theist bag of errors. They are so intent on justifying their own failures that they do not mind at all blaming God, defaming God, even blaspheming God... and then in a mind boggling display of religion gone to seed, claim that they are "glorifying God" in it all!

YES AND AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

PastorMike · Jun 24, 2006

didaskalos said:
And who is glorified when they attribute their failures to the will and nature of God? Who is justifying themselves and the expense of God? When you read these testimonies about how "faithful" (sic) they are to "suffer for God"... who do you feel like patting on the back? Who is getting the praise? Who is being blamed?
This is the most twisted and convoluted logic in the mere theist bag of errors. They are so intent on justifying their own failures that they do not mind at all blaming God, defaming God, even blaspheming God... and then in a mind boggling display of religion gone to seed, claim that they are "glorifying God" in it all!

Wow Dids, that really is the heart of the matter, God bless, Mike.

JimfromOhio · Jun 24, 2006

didaskalos said:
This is the most twisted and convoluted logic in the mere theist bag of errors. They are so intent on justifying their own failures that they do not mind at all blaming God, defaming God, even blaspheming God... and then in a mind boggling display of religion gone to seed, claim that they are "glorifying God" in it all!

The mystery is this: True faith is not the ability to superiorize unseen things to the satisfaction of our human minds, instead it is the human power to trust Christ completely. To be contented and unafraid when going on a life's journey. Like a journey of a child with his father, a child is unable to imagine events but a child will know and trust his father. Jesus Christ is our all in all. We need but trust Him and He will take care of the rest.

Psalm 42:9
I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

Romans 9:18-20
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "

Of course finally..........

Job 2:3
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

Then Job gets inflicted even though God finds Job blameless.

Blame God? NEVER because all of His actions are justified by His Sovereign and He is the Creator.

God is Glorified: ?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathprepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Keep on reasoning along with your emotions.

Strong in Him · Jun 24, 2006

didaskalos said:
And who is glorified when they attribute their failures to the will and nature of God? Who is justifying themselves at the expense of God? When you read these testimonies about how "faithful" (sic) they are to "suffer for God"... who do you feel like patting on the back? Who is getting the praise? Who is being blamed?

Well obviously you feel that a sick person is only glorifying themselves, accepting praise for how stoical they are being and admiration that they should still have faith in a nasty God who won't do what they ask. This is most certainly not true in my case, a fact which I have shared before. No one has come up to me and said "aren't you a terrific person?" They HAVE come up to me and said "if God can use you he can use anyone, I am encouraged to believe that for myself because I can see what he is doing in you." It is the Lord, no one else, who has helped me, strengthened me and brought me through my local preacher's training. I came up with all kinds of problems and even told people that I might not be able to finish. None of what I feared has come to pass, in fact I was the only person in my tutorial group who went to every meeting. If people ask how I did it, I tell them, I didn't, God did. God gives people the strength and ability to do what he has called them to do.

From the books and testimonies I have read, other disabled Christians would say the same. We love the God who has saved and called us, are serving him and seeking to glorify him.

Years ago at an ordination service, the Bishop said in his sermon that if you look AT a pane of glass, you see smudges, smears, maybe cracks and chips; if you look THROUGH the glass you see the world outside. I think it's the same with healing. If you look at an illness, try to work out the reason for it being there, what you need to do to get rid of it, and the state of the person's faith or soul, you get bogged down with doctrine, argument, introspection. If you look at what God is accomplishing through it, and in spite of it, you see him at work.

JimfromOhio · Jun 24, 2006

Strong in Him said:
Well obviously you feel that a sick person is only glorifying themselves, accepting praise for how stoical they are being and admiration that they should still have faith in a nasty God who won't do what they ask. This is most certainly not true in my case, a fact which I have shared before. No one has come up to me and said "aren't you a terrific person?" They HAVE come up to me and said "if God can use you he can use anyone, I am encouraged to believe that for myself because I can see what he is doing in you." It is the Lord, no one else, who has helped me, strengthened me and brought me through my local preacher's training. I came up with all kinds of problems and even told people that I might not be able to finish. None of what I feared has come to pass, in fact I was the only person in my tutorial group who went to every meeting. If people ask how I did it, I tell them, I didn't, God did. God gives people the strength and ability to do what he has called them to do.
From the books and testimonies I have read, other disabled Christians would say the same. We love the God who has saved and called us, are serving him and seeking to glorify him.

Years ago at an ordination service, the Bishop said in his sermon that if you look AT a pane of glass, you see smudges, smears, maybe cracks and chips; if you look THROUGH the glass you see the world outside. I think it's the same with healing. If you look at an illness, try to work out the reason for it being there, what you need to do to get rid of it, and the state of the person's faith or soul, you get bogged down with doctrine, argument, introspection. If you look at what God is accomplishing through it, and in spite of it, you see him at work.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Strong in Him again.

I have had similar experiences as you have. When we most aware of our weaknesses, we are more inclined to collapse into God's strength and experience His amazing grace. "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9).

Strong in Him · Jun 24, 2006

didaskalos said:
This is the most twisted and convoluted logic in the mere theist bag of errors. They are so intent on justifying their own failures that they do not mind at all blaming God, defaming God, even blaspheming God... and then in a mind boggling display of religion gone to seed, claim that they are "glorifying God" in it all!

Not at all. If I say that I have failed to be healed, then I do make it all about me - my lack of faith, positive declaration or whatever. It follows, then, that anyone who has been healed has received it due to their abundant faith, correct attitude, positive prayer etc. This makes healing all about the individual, and it's not. It is God who heals, what's more it is he who gives faith for healing, and whose Holy Spirit searches our hearts to see if there is any offensive way in us (Psalm 139:23-24) and convicts us of sin so that we may repent. It is Jesus who sets us free, from the past, from bad habits etc and who heals our innermost hurts.

Some people simply ask for healing and receive it, without having heard of all the things they "should" do, or believe, to receive it. No problem. It's only when Christians aren't healed that there's a problem, and people rush to explain why God hasn't answered the sufferer's prayer. The explanation usually boils down to "well it's your responsibility/fault, have you ..........?"

JimB · Jun 24, 2006

Thanks, Strong, for encouraging us to have faith in God (Matt. 11.22) for who He is and not for what He can do for us (e.g., healing and prosperity).

Christianity is all about Jesus (right?); its not supposed to be about me.

I wonder if some would serve God if He never answered another prayer. Would the grace He has already provided really be sufficient for them? Isnt our sufficiency supposed to be God, not His things? (2 Cor. 3.5)

Sincerely,
~Adam Baum

merryheart · Jun 24, 2006

If being sick puts you in the pharmacy at the right time to witness to a young mother dying of cancer who has never contemplated Jesus sacrifice for her
- Did God allow this to happen in you for her sake?
- Would you choose *not* to suffer sickness if your sickness places you to minister the seeds of salvation to a lost soul? If without your short illness that person never gets a chance?

Christina M · Jun 24, 2006

merryheart said:
If being sick puts you in the pharmacy at the right time to witness to a young mother dying of cancer who has never contemplated Jesus sacrifice for her
- Did God allow this to happen in you for her sake?
- Would you choose *not* to suffer sickness if your sickness places you to minister the seeds of salvation to a lost soul? If without your short illness that person never gets a chance?

One doesn't have to be made sick to witness..... you don't have to be ill in the hospital to go to the hospital to pray for people.

JTM3 · Jun 24, 2006

merryheart said:
If being sick puts you in the pharmacy at the right time to witness to a young mother dying of cancer who has never contemplated Jesus sacrifice for her
- Did God allow this to happen in you for her sake?
- Would you choose *not* to suffer sickness if your sickness places you to minister the seeds of salvation to a lost soul? If without your short illness that person never gets a chance?

Oh the insanity!!!

Why do you people persist in your sick view of God??

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 24, 2006

So all those Buddhists out there are really glorifying Buddha with all their self inflicted suffering. And the Muslim who blows himself up (and a bunch of others) is really glorifying Allah with that immense suffering.
This defies all logic and reason. NOBODY sees God as a glorious being because you "faithfully endure your suffering in His name." Nobody but you. Every other rational person in the universe hears your story and quickly backs away from you (and God) lest He require them to endure such illogical and meaningless suffering also.
Non-believers read this stuff and simply sign you off as fanatics. It does not glorify God nor does it encourage anyone to come to Him. It scares people and makes you scary. Not a single person out in the world will follow your logic and assume that your "suffering for God" somehow glorifies God. That is all you.
It is "good news" not "bad news."
You have to at least make sense.
This does not.

JTM3 · Jun 24, 2006

meh; (vilolently disregard) religion. If you know what I mean...

Gotcha

I don't get it...

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