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i dont date him if he's not a christian- is this a bad idea?

LinkH

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I'm a little old fashioned, but a woman asking me out would have been a little bit of a turn-off when I was dating. It puts the dynamics of the relationship in question up front.

But I saw a body language video on YouTube a while back that says that while woman say they want the guy to make the first move, from a body language perspective, the woman is usually the first to signal issue. The woman plays with her hair, makes eye contact, positions her body in an open or kind of vulnerable position toward a man while talking to him (the example in the video was positioning her head to expose her neck.) It's all subtle and women man not realize they are doing it and men may not consciously realize it, but maybe subconsciously they pick up on it.

If you want the type of guy who makes the first move, a Christian man from the type of church that believes men are the spiritual leaders, then you may be wanting the type of man who isn't going to want to pursue a relationship all the way to marriage with a woman who doesn't think men should be leaders.

I was just thinking of a woman about 30 in Jakarta I talked with several years ago. My wife and I were apartment hunting, and happened to meet this woman from church in the apartment. It turns out she was really bummed out about a man who was probably nearly 50 getting married. She was local Chinese. He was Chinese from another country, a man with probably a pretty good job in business who taught a Bible study. He seemed to be kind of conservative. He'd never married. He had shown up at church with a beautiful Chinese wife that I think he'd met overseas. I'd had a few conversations with him, but didn't know him well. He and his wife seemed very happy.

This Chinese woman from church was sulking because she'd had a crush on the older man. She told about it. He would greet her and be very friendly with her at church. She seemed betrayed somehow, angry at his wife. It didn't sound like he'd done anything at all to lead him on. During our conversation, this woman said she was a feminist. She was the only woman in Indonesia I'd ever met who called herself a feminist. I don't know if I'd even heard the word there from anyone else. I think this other Chinese man knew she was a feminist, too. And she was reasonably good-looking, thin, had a decent job. But wasn't married. I just wonder if calling herself a feminist was something that hindered her getting married. Based on what I knew of this Chinese man, I could imagine it would remove a woman from his consideration set as a marriage partner. Honestly, it would have for me, too.
 
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fhl2014

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A feminist is simply someone who believes in what Jesus said sums up all the laws of all the prophets- love others as you would love yourself. Equal. No blocks to preaching or decision making or being a fully functioning adult who uses her brain heart and wisdom which sometimes includes teaching men and leading them in various situations. We are not less capable than you. I guarantee that wife would ACT submissive directly but indirectly have everything her way. Men dont see through that but women know what those types of women are doing in order to lead because it is inevitable as we are not children and not stupid and offer men insights they dont think of without us. Feminists on the other hand just dont play games. They talk like the intelligent capable grown ups that they are and hope that men will accept this fair and logical interaction. Amazingly some men just wont, and it sounds like you are one of them.
 
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fhl2014

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You do not have more authority in life or marriage than your wife else when your wife meets God she wont need to say anything except 'dont talk to me talk to my husband about me, he had greater authority and therefore more responsibility for my actions both good and bad' and God would say 'ok.' But He doesnt. We are autonomous at birth and death just like you are. All the women in heaven are there because of their relationship with Jesus not with their hubbies. You are simply wrong. Look at the big picture of the gospel not the details from Paul during a context of male domination, legal slavery and other things unintended for the human race. You have a very stuffy old way of thinking and you will never know how it feels to be on the receiving end of your kind of unwavering and stubborn ignorance so there's not much point talking to you. I hope you open your heart one day to consider women like yourself and give them the same respect as image bearers of God. There is no male or female in Christ we are all one. We have the same way to God, same holy spirit and same mandate to spread the gospel and make disciples. To put stumbling blocks in others spiritual journeys such as questioning and disabling their God given authority and equal identity in Christ is sin. Why do that for the sake of a 'role' which is not accurate.
I hold back my decision making and submit to men and I experience over and over again that not always working. I say yes ok sure whatever you think and then he leads us into a bad situation out of innocent lack of insight or knowledge which he is not to blame for. Men are just people like us. They are not smarter more prone to being right or able or wiser or anything. We're all just human and we need each other and for all of us that means submitting and following someone else and men are not exempt from that in relationships with women. I feel like I am teaching the alphabet to children. This is so basic why cant men grow up and get it!
 
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Inkachu

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It is both sad and frightening to see a man say that he requires a woman to not be "egalitarian" or "feminist" or whatever other word you want to choose that simply means "equal", because that way she won't leave him. Do they realize that they're saying they want someone who sees herself as inferior, so that he can have assurance she'll stick around? That he'd rather have a woman who behaves like a pet and remains loyal simply because "that's the thing to do" rather than weighing all of her options with intelligence and sense and choosing to stay even though she knows she could function on her own?

Sad. Sad, sad, sad. So backwards. So 19th century. And not the way God designed us to be.
 
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akmom

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It is both sad and frightening to see a man say that he requires a woman to not be "egalitarian" or "feminist" or whatever other word you want to choose that simply means "equal", because that way she won't leave him.

But it's so much easier than being charming!
 
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LinkH

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A feminist is simply someone who believes in what Jesus said sums up all the laws of all the prophets- love others as you would love yourself. Equal.

That's not how I define the term. It's not how society defines the term. It's not how a woman's studies professor would define the term. Some Feminist's are equal.

No blocks to preaching or decision making or being a fully functioning adult who uses her brain heart and wisdom which sometimes includes teaching men and leading them in various situations.

In no situation? Not even the one Paul mentioned when writing to Timothy?

We are not less capable than you.

Who is 'we' and what capabilities are you talking about? Lifting heavy boxes or bearing children?

I guarantee that wife would ACT submissive directly but indirectly have everything her way.

I think submission is off-topic in this forum, too, since it a subforum, but I'm not sure.

Be that as it way, some wives can be manipulative. But in a loving marriage a husband seeks to please his wife and a wife seeks to please her husband. If a wife isn't manipulative, a husband may want her to have 'her way' about a lot of things, too.

How a wife acts toward her husband is important ,too, since a wife is commanded to reverence/respect her husband.

Men dont see through that but women know what those types of women are doing in order to lead because it is inevitable as we are not children and not stupid and offer men insights they dont think of without us.

The president of the United States has a cabinet who hopefully give him wise advice. If he knows what he is doing, he fills those roles with people who are not stupid or foolish. They may have more experience in their area than he has in it. He's the leader, but that doesn't mean they have to be stupid or foolish for him to function in his role.


Feminists on the other hand just dont play games. They talk like the intelligent capable grown ups that they are and hope that men will accept this fair and logical interaction.

This has not always been my experience. If you look at YouTube, you can find Feminists screaming and acting obnoxious, protesting peaceful meetings of very non-radical men's movements, or stealing anti-abortion protestors signs.
 
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fhl2014

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Yep, I was concerned by that specific comment as well. The fact that he won't 'lie awake at night wondering if she will leave him because she knows thats wrong and she also knows she has to forgive' is a problem. Some men (and women) need to lay awake at night knowing that if they are bad partners their wife (or husband) may end up leaving them because we all have a tendency to sin and sometimes the reality of a consequence is the final thing that makes people behave better. I know several men who were very bad husbands until their wife said 'if you don't change/stop gambling/be there for us I am going to leave', and they realized they couldn't get away with it anymore and changed to keep their families. It's drastic, but it's the last resort for some couples. I am not against divorce if it means someone who is being abused or mistreated or unloved can be free of that marriage prison. (male victims included.)
 
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fhl2014

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I'm so glad you mentioned how womens studies professors would describe feminists because I am in contact with several of them every week as I am at college and guess what I'm studying?
Feminists, like anyone who is rightfully resisting widespread injustices, come in many different forms. Many are men. Most are intelligent and articulate educated individuals who have discussions, and a minority of them have been troublesome protesters. But all of them together have allowed girls to go to college, women to be classified as full citizens rather than extensions of men, made sexual harassment in the workplace against the law for everybodys protection and many other great things that any man with an ounce of compassion can appreciate them doing for our daughters daughters.
Of course submission is not off topic here, are you kidding?
I'd like to give you this link to help open your mind and your heart to what's really going on in the world and why equality is important:
UN Women - Headquarters
Take care
 
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LinkH

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First of all, that is clearly a straw man argument. I didn't argue that. That kind of thinking contradicts my post. God spoke with Eve directly about her sin.

But on the day of judgment, God may ask you how you supported your husband (assuming you marry) when he made a decision or told you do something.

My wife has her own relationship with God. She did before she met me. But she is also responsible to God for how she follows the teaching directed at wives in the New Testament.

All the women in heaven are there because of their relationship with Jesus not with their hubbies. You are simply wrong.

Either the flow of your writing here is disjointed and you are only writing a part of your thoughts, or this is a big straw man. I never said women go to heaven because of their relationships with their husbands.

Look at the big picture of the gospel not the details from Paul during a context of male domination, legal slavery and other things unintended for the human race.

Your bit about 'male domination' reminds me of feminist brainwashing about 'patriarchy.' God has revealed Himself as the Father. Or maybe a better way of looking at it is that God has certain characteristics, made man in His own image ('both male and female created He them'), and put certain characteristics and patterns into creation, including fatherhood, which reveals an aspect of His nature. God is the Father, so the creation is already patriarchal. So patriarchy can't be evil.

God chose a people to give His law to. He took them out of a foreign nation and gave them the laws he wanted them to have. Some laws were similar to those of the surrounding nations, but many were radically different. If God wanted to wipe out patriarchy, He could have. Instead, He either added or reinforced some aspects of patriarchy. He had Israeli inheritance passed down through male heirs (with an exception to pass it to daughters in the case of a man dying with no sons, provided the women married into their father's clan.) He had fathers give daughters away in marriage, not mothers giving daughters away. Husbands could cancel wives and daughters vows and not vice versa.

Most of the leaders that God raised up in Israel were male. There was one prophetess who judged Israel. There was also an evil queen who killed off most of the heirs, and queen Esther, who was the wife or primary consort of a Gentile monarch. But by and large, God chose male leaders. Deborah and Hulda prophesied. But most prophets mentioned in the Old Testament were male. God had a male king, Saul, anointed. Then he had David, a man, anointed, and the kingship passed through the male line from father to son.

Moses appointed 70 elders, etymologically 'bearded ones' to rule over Israel. Sounds kind of male. In the cities, there were elders who served in a leadership role. Isaiah seems to be lamenting when he wrote that women ruled over the people and children oppressed them.

When Jesus came, He chose 12 men to be apostles. He did have women who travelled with them and honored a woman by having her tell the apostles of His resurrection, before sending these 12 men into the world to preach the Gospel. The Spirit was poured out and men and women prophesied.

There is no difference between male and female, Jew and Greek, slave and free when it comes to being heirs according to the promise. Women do not become part of the household of faith by being married to men who are circumcised or choose to become circumcised as Judaism without Christ thought. They can be a part of God's family whether or not their husbands come to faith in Christ.

Yet, the apostles and elders gave Gentiles instructions requiring less stringent requirements of them when it comes to the law in Acts 15 and Acts 22, while they continued to practice things taught by Moses to Israel. The Bible commands slaves to obey their masters. It also has specific instructions regarding the roles and obligations of husbands, wives, and children in the family. The man who wrote the 'no male nor female' also wrote these instructions in the Bible.

You have a very stuffy old way of thinking

If you have a really liberal approach to scripture, you are going to repel men who have a more conservative understanding of it. A lot of godly men believe the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and would take a passage like Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, or I Peter 3 quite seriously. They don't dismiss these passages as only being for those times. If you call their thinking a 'very stuffy old way of thinking', when it comes to something serious like this, then you may very well repel some of the very type of suitors that, when it comes to other aspects of their lives, you would want.

Ephesians 5 tells us a mystery of Christ and the church. Marriage is supposed to demonstrate this mystery. If you approach Ephesians 5 as not being for you today, you mess it up. And you and your husband would not get to experience all you can in marriage, and you may also hinder your witness to others.

Also, my guess is you would not be okay with a man who rejects his obligations in marriage according to Ephesians 5. If he says he is not going to love his wife as Christ loves the church, you aren't seriously going to date a man like that who calls himself a Christian? Why should you be surprised if a man doesn't want to date a woman who doesn't embrace the teachings of the New Testament for wives?


I respect women. I don't think much of new wave feminism. I especially respect women who have the boldness and the strength to go against culture and the thinking of this world and embrace and what the Bible teaches for them. That's something I can appreciate because I know that obeying God's word is not easy.

To put stumbling blocks in others spiritual journeys such as questioning and disabling their God given authority and equal identity in Christ is sin.

Hmmm. You wouldn't say it is a sin to tell people they need to accept and obey what the New Testament teaches believers to do, would you?

Have you ever considered that you have this overarching philosophy related to equality, etc., that doesn't really agree with all the specifics of scripture, and that you reject bits and pieces of scripture (e.g. parts of Ephesians 5 and I Peter 3) when they disagree with your philosophy?


Why do you do that unless it's your husband or father, or maybe boss or pastor or someone like that? You're not married, so who did you have a bad experience following? Was it one of these unbelieving guys you dated?


I appreciate the wisdom the Lord has given my wife. In president and cabinet analogy, though, the president would be wise to find counselors wiser than himself, at least in the areas they are advising in. But it is his role to make the decisions. If the Secretary of the Interior oversteps his or her bounds and starts making decisions only the president can make, or makes decisions contrary to the president, that's wrong. The Constitution and Federal law set some boundaries on who does what, and so does the president by the decisions he makes. The Ephesians 5 roles for husbands and wife, probably written after that verse in Galatians you quoted, btw, are not in there because men are always smarter, wiser, etc.

I feel like I am teaching the alphabet to children. This is so basic why cant men grow up and get it!

You know that OFF mosquito repellent? Well, comments like that may make equally good guy-repellent, especially for Conservative, Bible-believing guys. Look at that last sentence. If you have a bit of that anti-male sentiment (which seems common among self-professed Feminists), and men pick up on it, it's going to be hard to attract a man, at least not a man who takes a very serious, historical approach to the Bible.

You may be able to find plenty of guys who kind of have a generic liberal view of society. Plenty of unbelieving men may be interested. I suppose you could marry someone with kind of liberal beliefs. You might also pray and ask if you have any strongholds that are keeping the men at bay. If you think men are children and need to be taught the alphabet, maybe that's repelling the right kind of man. You could also pray and ask if the Lord has a man who ha a conservative view of the Bible that He has for you, but He's sparing the man until you let go of some of these liberal beliefs and embrace Ephesians 5, with an attitude to find joy in it.
 
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LinkH

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Yep, I was concerned by that specific comment as well. The fact that he won't 'lie awake at night wondering if she will leave him because she knows thats wrong and she also knows she has to forgive' is a problem.

That's some spin you put on that. Just to clarify. I'm talking about the tendency of certain females to get upset over small stuff, like saying she looks fat in a dress if she asked, or maybe even something like raising your voice at her when talking to her over the TV. Then she gets all upset all day long and won't make up and drags the argument out all day. Stuff like that. I'm wasn't thinking about forgiving violence or adultery in my marriage.

Not forgiving and making up in marriage is a big issue in a lot of marriages. Some women also are petty, meaning they get upset over small stuff, sulk, won't reconcile over arguments for a long time. Some men do the same thing, sulking, passive-aggressive comments after an argument was supposed to be over. My wife would get upset for a while in the past, though that's not as common these days. If you are married to someone who gets upset over small stuff and brews and simmers for days and days and never tries to reconcile, a few small relationship problems can turn into a divorce over unforgiveness. I heard someone say a woman divorced her husband because they used to argue over whether to squeeze the toothpaste from the middle or the top. Making a big deal over small stuff, staying upset about it, and not apologizing or forgiving are all things that can destroy a marriage.

It would also be foolish for a man to go into a marriage thinking if he is a decent man, his wife won't leave him. That's only the case if he marries a woman with good values when it comes to marriage, and that is hard to find in our society. If a man marries a woman with a low threshold for divorce, she can just divorce him for no good reason and the courts may give her half his retirement money, the kids, and put him an indentured servitude situation of paying child-support for kids he barely sees, money which may to pay the rent of the wife who betrayed him, and maybe her next boyfriend. If he loses his job, there is a chance he could end up in debtors prison for not paying child support. Men without values the same or similar to what Christianity teaches may opt for hook ups or shack ups. Why would any Christian man want to marry a woman who has values and ethics that work against her divorcing him in this society. Depending on his marriage staying together because he is a decent, hard-working man in this society is foolish.


I guess it depends on how far you stretch your principles there. If you were talking about some guy who beats his wife and kids up, that's one thing. But 'be there for us'? What does that mean? If you are talking about a wife leaving her husband because she doesn't feel loved-- then that philosophy could be conservative-Christian-guy-repellent, too. What man who believes like that would want to marry a woman who would hold a threat of divorce over his head to get him to conform to her wishes or a set of standards in her mind.

Some of your really conservative Christian men are going to definitely want a woman who is committed to marriage and really hates divorce. If a Christian man never wants to divorce, it would make no sense to marry a woman who has a much lower threshold for divorce than his own.
 
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LinkH

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This is the type of feminist thinking that I find irritating. The issue is not 'equality.' It's an issue of following the word of God. If a wife rejects what Ephesians 5 teaches, then why should a man who wants a marriage like Ephesians 5 says consider her for a potential partner? 'Egalitarian' in the specific context I am talking about has to do with how Ephesians 5 and other passages are interpreted. There are other contexts where egalitarian means something slightly different.

I'm married to a capable, confident, educated, energetic woman. I didn't go try to find someone who felt inferior so I could keep her around. But I did want to find a woman dedicated to obeying God and following what the New Testament teaches.

I definitely wouldn't have wanted to marry a woman who stays married to me because she constantly weighs her options and considers staying married to me to be the best option. That sounds like a woman holding a knife getting ready to stab you in the back when there is a better option. That's the kind of wife who would file a no-fault divorce if you get into a bad accident and have brain surgery or are paralyzed from the waste down.

I chose someone who I believed would be with me for better for worse, in sickness and in health. If I didn't want a real commitment or a marriage based on the word of God, I could have opted for a series of shack-ups.

You probably wouldn't want your husband to be weighing options and only stay married to you as long as the pros outweighed the cons.
 
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fhl2014

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LinkH, why are you even going on and on and on and on in detail about all this? It's not the gospel. Guys with your mindset always seem to be able to prattle off perceived scriptures about 'roles of wives' better than they can the character of Jesus, and they certainly mention Him less. That speaks very loudly to me.

In case you haven't gathered, I'm not interested in a 'conservative' man like yourself, I find them very unappealing. So missing out on one or turning one off like mosquito repellant is something I am not in the least bit concerned about. In fact, I think I might spray some more on.
I am interested in a guy who is free to be as manly and strong and useful and capable as he likes, but without inhibiting those things about me also because that is asking me to be less than what I am and that is hurtful and offensive. I have never been the kind of woman who is unattractive/rude/repellant of good men in my strengths, in fact, the ones who are secure in themselves and find equals attractive have always liked that about me. I am aware that finding these kinds of guys who are not already snapped up by the lucky girls at church is going to be difficult.

Everything else aside, with a correct interpretation of the earliest scriptures, men do not have a governing/boss/higher authority/arbitrator role over women. That is a misinterpretation, but if it works for you personally then that's fine. It doesn't work for a lot of unhappy people I know and it will never work for me. All the best to you.
 
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LinkH

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That's not a fair judgment to make since you asked a specific question in a forum on a specific topic. I replied on the topic of the thread, and the scriptures I quoted had to do with that topic.


I'm using the word 'conservative' to apply to how someone views the scripture, not a guy with neat hair who wears a suit and quotes Adam Smith about the economy.

From some of your comments, I wondered if you went to the type of church that kind of believes the Bible and takes it seriously. There are churches that don't. If you go to a church where people have a 'conservative' view of the Bible, or 'Bible-believing churches' being a self-proclaimed Feminist may seriously lower the size of the dating pool.

Also, if you happen to be a woman's studies major, your paying big bucks to be indoctrinated into a philosophy that is not based on the word of God, and in some areas isn't consistent with it. And the job prospects aren't all that great. I didn't have a major that ended with 'studies', but I did a degree where you couldn't do much in that particular field unless you went to grad school. It's usually not the best value for money.


But from what you said, it sounds like the guys who ask you out aren't usually Christians.

And wives submitting to their husbands isn't the same as them being less than they are, or less than they could be. Jesus submits to the Father. That doesn't take anything good away from Him.

I am aware that finding these kinds of guys who are not already snapped up by the lucky girls at church is going to be difficult.

And if these guys have a choice between talented, smart, beautiful women who are Feminists and those who believe in wives submitting to their husbands, which one are they going to pick? If they really take the Bible seriously, why wouldn't they go for the latter?

Everything else aside, with a correct interpretation of the earliest scriptures, men do not have a governing/boss/higher authority/arbitrator role over women. That is a misinterpretation, but if it works for you personally then that's fine.

If a Christian man has a choice between a wife who embraces Ephesians 5 and I Peter 3, or one that doesn't, why would be choose the latter?

It doesn't work for a lot of unhappy people I know and it will never work for me. All the best to you.


The good news is there is enough grace for all of those who are Christ's to obey God's word and do His will. God works in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure.
 
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fhl2014

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I can't believe you just asked if a guy would choose between a smart talented and beautiful woman who knows that men and women lead each other at times and one who is simply submissive. If a man doesn't prefer the former I think something is wrong with him. But I do know of christian guys who are so caught up on these things instead of love and life that you're right they do pick the latter, and they're never satisfied in the end. They associate submission with being trusted and respected but if it's as black or white as you think then what's really happening is the woman putting unnecessary and unrealistic expectations on him. Men are not right more often than women. We should listen to and submit to one another. Its the only sensible way.
 
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fhl2014

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Question: you asked me why a man wouldn't want a submissive wife. ... I want to know why WOULD he?

What's his motivation?
Don't tell me its the best way to love and serve her. Of all the men I've heard harp on about being a woman's leader, I've never ever heard a man go on and on about how great it is to lay his wants priorities plans ideas desires and indeed life down for her. EVER.

Explain that. Could it be because what they think being the head is is different to what it actually means?
 
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tall73

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I would also add that in the section dealing with marriage, when speaking about widows Paul said:

I Cor 7:39 A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. (NIV)

The reason it is notable that it is about widows is that they had the option of marrying whoever they wanted, per Paul, but he advised they marry someone who also believes in the Lord.

Often first marriages were arranged, so they may not always have that option. When we have the option we should choose someone who also loves the Lord. Whether traditional or egalitarian, you will find that things go a lot better if you are on the same page on major matters in life. And yes, people can change, and people can misrepresent. Do the best you can though to find someone who loves the Lord and who can share that part of life with you.
 
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tall73

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Look at the big picture of the gospel not the details from Paul during a context of male domination, legal slavery and other things unintended for the human race.


In advising you it may be helpful to understand your view of Scripture. Is your suggestion here that Paul was not giving correct particulars, or only that he was doing so within the reality of the time?

In any case, yes many couples where one is Christian and the other is not do get along fine. On the other hand, even in ones where they do, it is a hard feeling to realize they may miss out on eternity when you want them so much to be with you and be with Christ.

And if there are children what do you teach them? For a fuller perspective, from both angles, if you have not already, you might want to check out the unequally yoked section.
 
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