I Can't Vote...Who's With Me?

[dogs4thewin]

Are you claiming that God's law is identical to man's law when the same crime is discussed in both? That is, that Abortion was murder period before Roe v. Wade, but afterwards when the secular definition changed that changed the definition of murder generally (including God's law)?

It only changed secular law, but that is what I base my understanding of law on.

 

[ALoveDivine]

Because this particular Christian is really into secular law and to me law is defined by whether or not one can be sued, arrested, charged ECT if one commits an act.

1. Do you agree that abortion, as the termination of human life, is immoral?
2. Do you believe that, given an affirmation of the above, abortion should be illegal?

If you answer yes to these two questions, then it would be very hard to justify voting for any candidate or party that supports keep abortion legal. If you answered no to these questions, I'd have a hard time seeing how you could justify that as a Christian thinking through these issues on the basis of Christian ethics.

 

[dogs4thewin]

1. Do you agree that abortion, as the termination of human life, is immoral?
2. Do you believe that, given an affirmation of the above, abortion should be illegal?

If you answer yes to these two questions, then it would be very hard to justify voting for any candidate or party that supports keep abortion legal. If you answered no to these questions, I'd have a hard time seeing how you could justify that as a Christian thinking through these issues on the basis of Christian ethics.

I believe it is IMMORAL that does not mean that I believe that early-term abortion should be treated the same as "regular" murder.

 

[ALoveDivine]

that does not mean that I believe that early-term abortion should be treated the same as "regular" murder.

Why? At what point is it not quite murder, and at what point does it become murder? Where is the demarcation line? If it is murder in all cases, including early term, than why would murder in one case be legal and yet illegal in another?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Also, as I stated I do not anyone who can HONESTLY say they agree with a particular party on EVERY issue, so I see nothing wrong with someone supporting such a party if their views line up with that party's planform as a whole, better.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Why? At what point is it not quite murder, and at what point does it become murder? Where is the demarcation line? If it is murder in all cases, including early term, than why would murder in one case be legal and yet illegal in another?

Maybe we should start another thread simply because this has derailed your thread not that I do not have an answer.

 

[MoonlessNight]

I wish that I was still surprised to see how many times "there's no such thing as a perfect politician" has become "I don't care if my candidate supports abortion, and besides is abortion really as bad as people make it out to be?"

 

[pgp_protector]

Why? At what point is it not quite murder, and at what point does it become murder? Where is the demarcation line? If it is murder in all cases, including early term, than why would murder in one case be legal and yet illegal in another?

Should it be punished the same as murder?

 

[ALoveDivine]

Should it be punished the same as murder?

Yes. Though let me be clear, I oppose the death penalty just as much as I oppose abortion, meaning I oppose it in all circumstances. I also believe very strongly in prison reform. Prison should not be retributive but correctional, the ill treatment of prisoners needs to end. Prison should keep people separated from society and perhaps help to make them better people.

So yeah, murder is murder and the law needs to be applied with equity. Yet that does not mean I in any way support our current criminal justice system.

 

[pgp_protector]

Yes. Though let me be clear, I oppose the death penalty just as much as I oppose abortion, meaning I oppose it in all circumstances. I also believe very strongly in prison reform. Prison should not be retributive but correctional, the ill treatment of prisoners needs to end. Prison should keep people separated from society and perhaps help to make them better people.

So yeah, murder is murder and the law needs to be applied with equity. Yet that does not mean I in any way support our current criminal justice system.

So what should the Punishment be for first degree murder (both willful and premeditated)

 

[ALoveDivine]

So what should the Punishment be for first degree murder (both willful and premeditated)

Life in prison....a substantially more humane prison.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Life in prison....a substantially more humane prison.

This

 

[pgp_protector]

Life in prison....a substantially more humane prison.

So life in prison for women that have abortions.
Don't know of any politician that will ever support that.

 

[dogs4thewin]

So life in prison for women that have abortions.
Don't know of any politician that will ever support that.

This is the part that I do not agree with and why I feel that it should be treated differently maybe like voluntary or involunary manslaughter or a seperate offense with a lesser penalty or even a two tier system.

 

[pgp_protector]

This is the part that I do not agree with and why I feel that it should be treated differently maybe like voluntary or involunary manslaughter or a seperate offense with a lesser penalty or even a two tier system.

Problem is it's both Willful & Premeditated, 100% match for First Degree Murder.
Or do we change the Definition of First Degree Murder now because of the ramification?
(Side note, is their any Biblical support for a "Life Sentence" in prison ? )

 

[Blondepudding]

I do plan to vote and with all due respect for your decision I feel that if you do not vote (you being used generally here do not vote you again (general) have no right to complain.

My grandfather said sometimes you are not voting for but whether aganist.

One option you may have is to vote third party which while it is a safe bet the person would not win at least you would be voting.

Voting for someone who has no chance and therein giving the other primary party candidates a vote.

I'm not voting this turn. I'm going to watch and see if the game plays like I think it has all these years I have.

If Trump gets the office in my opinion it will tell everyone that when he got on the ticket the whole thing was rigged. But if he gets the actual W then the electorate isn't actually putting candidates into power. Those otherwise mythical men behind the curtain we've heard about and that was simulated as the men in black in the old X-Files show, do.

If Hillary takes it, same thing. That woman isn't fit to serve another office.
If Cruz takes it it's to pander to the Hispanic community that government has been placating for years because their vote is so important. He's not Mexican but he has a Hispanic heritage, Cuban, and that's at least putting the face there to appeal and condescend to the Hispanic base.

Those are the three I think this whole race encompasses. In truth, and again in my opinion, there isn't a single person in the race that is fit to take office. That's why a third party vote just to vote is a waste and a personal insult. I just want to vote?

Voting for any of the two parties when someone doesn't believe in their party candidate but votes for them anyway due to party loyalty is a sell out of morals and this country. That vote for the lesser of two evils, as some call it , is still a vote for what that voter first votes to be evil prior to entering the vote. They're just putting their name on the record as voting for the one evil.
Don't vote and you're telling the machine you're not buying who they're trying to sell. And in turn selling out this country for another four years.
"If you don't vote don't whine!" If you do vote for the lesser of two evils you've voted for a reason to whine. How is that better than not being one-vote responsible for what makes a nation whine for four years?

Answered a bunch of points people have made in one post there. Sorry for the wall of text thing.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Problem is it's both Willful & Premeditated, 100% match for First Degree Murder.
Or do we change the Definition of First Degree Murder now because of the ramification?
(Side note, is their any Biblical support for a "Life Sentence" in prison ? )

Well, that was one thing with the two tier system one for ABORTIONS and the other for abortions via life choice. That is knowing you are with child and making decisions about your own body that could harm the child.

 

[pgp_protector]

Well, that was one thing with the two tier system one for ABORTIONS and the other for abortions via life choice. That is knowing you are with child and making decisions about your own body that could harm the child.

But then you're once again treating abortions as something different.
Either it is Murder or it's not Murder.

 

[dogs4thewin]

But then you're once again treating abortions as something different.
Either it is Murder or it's not Murder.

Well, in law there is the concept of first degree murder second degree murder and in some cases third degree murder then there is voluntary and involuntary manslaughter each with its own sentencing range.

 

[pgp_protector]

Well, in law there is the concept of first degree murder second degree murder and in some cases third degree murder then there is voluntary and involuntary manslaughter each with its own sentencing range.

Yes but second degree for non Premeditated killing, (So abortion can't fall under this)
3rd Degree is also the same as Voluntary manslaughter, requires that there was no intent to kill (So abortion can't fall under this)
and Involuntary manslaughter wouldn't even count as abortion is quite planned & premeditated. (So abortion can't fall under this)

If Abortion is Murder the only class is First degree as it's both Premeditated and Willful.
Or you have to go back to the way it is now, and Not call Abortion Murder.