I can't buy into mormonism because

[Serapha]

Hi there!








I seriously asked in three separate questions when one is saved within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Ultimately, I think I received the correct answer. One is never saved until one is heaven, for one may sin and fall away. One is never truly redeemed from their sins until they die and leave this world.






I read a few days ago, and I have been told this before--that everyone should read the book of mormon and particularly, to do as Maroni 10:3-5 states:



3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.














In particular, investigators should read that passage....








It was important for me to understand when or how one is saved in the mormon church to interpret this passage. In verse 4, one is told to ask God... with a heart ... having faith in Christ.... and God will tell you the truth.









What is "having faith in Christ"... to do what? It certainly cannot be faith in redemption from all of your sins because that would not fit any of the conversations I have had concerning being "redeemed" or "saved from sin" in the mormon church.





Well, I have a problem with that passage.






Well, we go back to The Holy Bible to understand that passage. The Word of God tells us in five separate passages that God does not hear the prayers of unrepentant sinners (Psalms 66:18, Prov 1:28, 28:9, Isaiah 1:15, John 9:31)




If one is an unrepentant sinner and is reading the book of mormon and asks God for the truth....






What is the name of the god that will answer that prayer? If the Lord God Almighty isn't listening and replying because you remain unrepentant of your sins, then who is answering that prayer?








~malaka~

 

[fatboys]

Hi there!






I seriously asked in three separate questions when one is saved within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Ultimately, I think I received the correct answer. One is never saved until one is heaven, for one may sin and fall away. One is never truly redeemed from their sins until they die and leave this world.

FB: Why would this be important to you to know when anyone else is saved. Wouldn't that be a matter that is personal to the individual?

Now I will try and explain the our view of being saved. We believe everyone is in part saved. That is everyone that has been born, or will be born is given partial salavation. That is they will be resurrected from the dead. John 5: 28-29. As for full salvation, that will depend upon our works. I am not speaking of the dead works of the Old law, but the new works Christ gave us and lived by to reach perfection. We can, however, have knowledge of full salvation in this life. This come as a person lives the gospel to the fullest and best of their ability. Their faith turns to knowledge.

I read a few days ago, and I have been told this before--that everyone should read the book of mormon and particularly, to do as Maroni 10:3-5 states:

FB: Actually it is Moroni

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

It was important for me to understand when or how one is saved in the mormon church to interpret this passage. In verse 4, one is told to ask God... with a heart ... having faith in Christ.... and God will tell you the truth.


What is "having faith in Christ"... to do what? It certainly cannot be faith in redemption from all of your sins because that would not fit any of the conversations I have had concerning being "redeemed" or "saved from sin" in the mormon church.

FB: When person first hears of Christ, can they immediatly have the Faith that is necessary to understand who and what Christ is? This understanding can take many years. A person can have a simple faith in Christ in order to find truth. In order for this to happen, one must first have a desire to know. This is what Moroni is teaching. After a desire, one must have a simple faith in Christ to ask for truth. If one is sincere, after reading, pondering and praying to the source of all truth in the name of Christ, God promises to reveal truth through the power of the Holy Ghost. If you are asking about the Book of Mormon, this is important because God promises to reveal the truth to the person asking. Also having faith in Christ does concern knowledge of what he has done for us. But like even the ancient apostles who did not understand the extent of the atonement even after spending three years with the Savior, a person searching for truth does not all at once understand the full extent of the atonement. Those who suppose that by saying they believe and are automatically saved are not understanding the atonement to the full extent. For a person who has faith in Christ, can also lose that faith, and their inheritance be taken from them. Faith increases through studying Gods word and prayer. But Faith can decrease if they do the opposite.





Well, I have a problem with that passage.

Well, we go back to The Holy Bible to understand that passage. The Word of God tells us in five separate passages that God does not hear the prayers of unrepentant sinners (Psalms 66:18, Prov 1:28, 28:9, Isaiah 1:15, John 9:31)

FB: I think you are misunderstanding what a unrepentant person is. Is a unrepentant person humble, sincere in heart? Would God answer a insincere prayer from a person who is defient?

 

[twhite982]

I don't see how someone can put this question into a box, for there are many dimensions and aspects of the meaning.​

Maybe a simple answer would be that we are saved when we are progressing in the right direction toward God.​

Developing faith takes time as FB has explained, At a point in my life when I am young I would have a different understanding and level of faith that is expressed than when I am much older and a little more seasoned. The fact of the matter is that I am accepted of God in either case because I am pressing foward towards God, or as Paul says for the high calling of God.​

As I said before I don't think salvation is an event, its a process. The means to get us to the ends, which is eternal life with our Heavenly Father.​

TW​

 

[Serapha]

FB: Why would this be important to you to know when anyone else is saved. Wouldn't that be a matter that is personal to the individual?

Hi there!

I would understand "saved" to be "saved from sin"... i.e. a sinner saved by grace, and no longer an "unrepentant sinner".

When I read the passage in Moroni, I see a big conflict between what the Bible teaches and what the book of mormon teaches. The Almighty God does not hear the prayers of unrepentant sinners. Your "intent" can be good when you are lost in sin.... and the Almightly God will not hear your prayer.

The Lord God Almighty doesn't hear the prayers of morally good people. He hears the prayers of "repentant sinners" as the passage I referenced identify.


That is why I ask ... when one is reading the book of mormon, and they pray to a god as a morally good person, but unsaved, what god are they praying to?


~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

Also having faith in Christ does concern knowledge of what he has done for us. But like even the ancient apostles who did not understand the extent of the atonement even after spending three years with the Savior, a person searching for truth does not all at once understand the full extent of the atonement.

Those who suppose that by saying they believe and are automatically saved are not understanding the atonement to the full extent. For a person who has faith in Christ, can also lose that faith, and their inheritance be taken from them.

Hi there!



Again, Could you explain atonement to me in the fullest extent, and explain how one is not saved who says they believe.

You seem to equate that the relationship with Christ is equivalent to the fellowship with Christ.... that simply isn't the case. One may lose the fellowship, but the relationship will not be broken.


For that matter, if one is not saved, they need not bother praying to God for anything other than repentance. (re: the passages cited)


~malaka~

 

[Spiceman]

Malaka: I seriously asked in three separate questions when one is saved within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Ultimately, I think I received the correct answer. One is never saved until one is heaven, for one may sin and fall away. One is never truly redeemed from their sins until they die and leave this world.



Spiceman: I believe that was my answer, however it probably would have helped if we had a definition of "saved". For example, I could have said, that when we repent and are baptised then our sins are washed away and thus at that stage we are saved from our sins because we have accepted Christ in our lives and have entered our new life as a disciple of Christ, and indeed will continue to be "saved" so long as we continually repent. In this sense we are saved by the grace of Christ and are justified in Him because of the infinite sacrifice that He made for us in overcoming the sins of the world.

Malaka: I read a few days ago, and I have been told this before--that everyone should read the book of mormon and particularly, to do as Maroni 10:3-5 states:

What is "having faith in Christ"... to do what? It certainly cannot be faith in redemption from all of your sins because that would not fit any of the conversations I have had concerning being "redeemed" or "saved from sin" in the mormon church.



Spiceman: That sounds very much like you have formed your own definition of what you think Mormons think of faith. You never asked us what we thought faith was, you asked us "when are we saved?" very loosely too I might add. I am sorry I just don't accept that last paragraph. Of course we believe that Christ redeems us of our sins, however that does not mean that we are redeemed instantly in the twinkling of an eye and that we are automatically entitled entry into the Kingdom of heaven. For what if a person accepted Christ and then fell from grace and became unrepentant?

Malaka: Well, I have a problem with that passage. Well, we go back to The Holy Bible to understand that passage. The Word of God tells us in five separate passages that God does not hear the prayers of unrepentant sinners (Psalms 66:18, Prov 1:28, 28:9, Isaiah 1:15, John 9:31)



Ok well that's a good start, lets take a look at those verses:

Psalms 66:18: "if I regard iniquity in my heart , the Lord will not hear me"

So basically this says if we love iniquity or "have regard for it" then God will not hear us" That makes sense, we shouldn't have regard for sin or iniquity.



Prov1:28: "Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer ; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:"



Here God is speaking to those whom he has called, however they refused him, they set at nought the counsel and wouldn't accept his reproof, it is no wonder that he would not answer them. 28:9, is very similar in it's theme.



Isaiah 1:15: God is talking to apostate Israel who were rebellious and corrupt, the Lord's chosen who have strayed from the path. The Lord says "yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear…….



John: 9:31: "Now ye know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.



All wonderful scriptures, I think we agree at this point.



Malaka: "If one is an unrepentant sinner and is reading the book of mormon and asks God for the truth...."



Spiceman: Correct, and if one is a repentant sinner and is reading the book and asks for the truth? We all know that God hears the prayer of the penitent, I don't see your point here……



Malaka: What is the name of the god that will answer that prayer? If the Lord God Almighty isn't listening and replying because you remain unrepentant of your sins, then who is answering that prayer?



Spiceman: that is drawing a long bow to assume what is in someone's heart who is praying (whether they are repentant or unrepentant), I'll let God do the judging in that regard. But just so that you know, we teach that the first principles in the Gospel are 1st faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, 2nd Repentance and so on…..



Spiceman

 

[Serapha]

Spiceman: That sounds very much like you have formed your own definition of what you think Mormons think of faith. You never asked us what we thought faith was, you asked us "when are we saved?" very loosely too I might add. ...


Spiceman

Hi there!



You are right... you aren't the judge... nor the jury for that matter.

but you are entitied to your own..."very loose" opinions


I would suggest there are many members of the LDS's who were "unrepentent" when they asked some god to give them an answer as to the truth of the teachings. The Lord God Almighty did not hear their prayers by His own words.... so I ask, what god answered them.

For pete's sake, if you believe that the mormon god pre-existed as a mortal, then he certainly had a preceeding mortal father.... could that be the god .... or maybe a mortal uncle was the god.... for certainly mormonism does not teach that the Lord God Almighty is the only god.

How old is the mormon God.? He had to have a birthdate as a mortal man. He certainly isn't from everlasting to everlasting as The Holy Bible describes the One, True God to be.


Sorry, the god of mormonism just doesn't have the moral or natural attributes of the God in The Holy Bible.

~malaka~

 

[Spiceman]

Malaka: You are right... you aren't the judge... nor the jury for that matter.



Spiceman: For the record I have never professed to be the judge, I find that remark confusing in the light of our discussion. You specifically questioned people who accept Moroni's promise and pray and all but accused them of being unrepentant. Sure some of them may not be, but what has that got to do with those who are repentant and are sincere of heart? This is the point I took issue with.

Malaka: but you are entitied to your own..."very loose" opinions



Spiceman: Thank you


Malaka: I would suggest there are many members of the LDS's who were "unrepentent" when they asked some god to give them an answer as to the truth of the teachings. The Lord God Almighty did not hear their prayers by His own words.... so I ask, what god answered them.



Spiceman: I would suggest respectfully that you have no idea what you are talking about and this is pure speculation at best, unless you can provide me with the names of the unrepentant persons. This is a completely baseless accusation.

Malaka: For pete's sake, if you believe that the mormon god pre-existed as a mortal, then he certainly had a preceeding mortal father.... could that be the god .... or maybe a mortal uncle was the god.... for certainly mormonism does not teach that the Lord God Almighty is the only god.



Spiceman: I thought you said you couldn't buy into Mormonism because anyone who prays is unrepentant? Now all of a sudden it is about a different God. We pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the same God you pray to. As for who you pray to, you give me your notion of God and I'll use the bible to contradict that. It is absolutely a pointless notion as far as I'm concerned, God hears your prayers and mine and the Catholic and all the honest in heart who are seeking for truth and striving in their lives to repent and have faith in Christ. I have no compunction to denigrate someone else's faith.

Malaka: How old is the mormon God.? He had to have a birthdate as a mortal man. He certainly isn't from everlasting to everlasting as The Holy Bible describes the One, True God to be.



Spiceman: I have absolutely no idea, but tell me, is it your contention that Christ is God? Or that God took upon him mortal flesh? If so, was he not born? Is he still from everlasting to everlasting?


Malaka: Sorry, the god of mormonism just doesn't have the moral or natural attributes of the God in The Holy Bible.



As far as I'm aware I use the same bible as you.

 

[fatboys]

Malaka, are you a sinner? Do you pray to God and have your prayers answered? Why?

 

[gort]

Spiceman: That sounds very much like you have formed your own definition of what you think Mormons think of faith. You never asked us what we thought faith was, you asked us "when are we saved?" very loosely too I might add. I am sorry I just don't accept that last paragraph. Of course we believe that Christ redeems us of our sins, however that does not mean that we are redeemed instantly in the twinkling of an eye and that we are automatically entitled entry into the Kingdom of heaven. For what if a person accepted Christ and then fell from grace and became unrepentant?

That is what the Bible teaches. An adopted son or daughter is still in family of God.

 

[Spiceman]

That is what the Bible teaches. An adopted son or daughter is still in family of God.

Yep, that doesn't change my point at all. The fact is, anyone through disobedience and unrepentance and walking away from Christ can still fall from grace. That is why we should endure to the end like Paul did.

 

[gort]

That would be the one sin. As our Father, He can punish, if need be.

 

[Spiceman]

so there we have it, no one is actually saved completely until they are in the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm glad we agree.

 

[gort]

however that does not mean that we are redeemed instantly in the twinkling of an eye and that we are automatically entitled entry into the Kingdom of heaven

Actually we don't agree.
This is not what the Bible teaches.

If you would understanding from the Bible, read the chapter where Jesus sends out the 70(?) disciples to enter the towns, to heal the sick, cast out demons, preach the gospel. Pay close attention to the parts when they return and are amazed at what had happened. Pay real close attention to what Jesus said.

 

[calgal]

Actually we don't agree.
This is not what the Bible teaches.

If you would understanding from the Bible, read the chapter where Jesus sends out the 70(?) disciples to enter the towns, to heal the sick, cast out demons, preach the gospel. Pay close attention to the parts when they return and are amazed at what had happened. Pay real close attention to what Jesus said.

I did not see where you agreed with Mormon teachings at all. From what Spiceman posted, salvation for Mormons is something that can be returned, like a candlestick bought at Macy's.

 

[gort]

Actualyy looking back at my post # 10 I had made bold his incorrect statement and then agreed with it. OF which I plead insanity as it was late at night.<g>

By post 14 I had come out of my daze........hopefully.

Thanx

 

[calgal]

Actualyy looking back at my post # 10 I had made bold his incorrect statement and then agreed with it. OF which I plead insanity as it was late at night.<g>

By post 14 I had come out of my daze........hopefully.

Thanx

The antidote is Coffee. It helps a lot. Insanity defense works for me.

 

[Serapha]

Spiceman: I have absolutely no idea, but tell me, is it your contention that Christ is God? Or that God took upon him mortal flesh? If so, was he not born? Is he still from everlasting to everlasting?


.

Hi there!



Yes, Jesus Christ was, is, and always will be the second person of the trinity. He was not a creation in the sense of being created, but continued... for Christ was the "Word" since before time, became the "Living Word" as the incarnate Christ, and continues to be the "Eternal Word" at the right hand of the Father in heaven right now.


~malaka~

 

[Spiceman]

Hi there!



Yes, Jesus Christ was, is, and always will be the second person of the trinity. He was not a creation in the sense of being created, but continued... for Christ was the "Word" since before time, became the "Living Word" as the incarnate Christ, and continues to be the "Eternal Word" at the right hand of the Father in heaven right now.


~malaka~

So are you saying that Christ and God the Father are separate beings or the same being? Interesting how Christ could be the Word since before time but still be born and still continue on forever. Would that not be a case of a God having pre-existed and then being born and still living forever. You have perhaps in theory at least answered your own question of how God can be from everlasting to everlasting and still be born. How old do you think Christ is? Or do you think he has always existed? For that matter how do you know you havent always existed and are indeed from everlasting to everlasting, for I have read somewhere that matter is neither created or destroyed. Thus the matter you were made from has always existed in some sense. Perhaps this is why the Hebrew word for "create" was actually "formed or organized". Obviously you can't actually create something that already exists, however you can rearrange it or organize it.

Sometimes I truly laugh when people say that God couldn't have created other worlds. He has existed for billions of years and has only made this one, I wonder what he was doing for the rest of the time and why He only would have created us and why He would at some stage not create more children. Perhaps He was sitting on His throne playing the harp on His own, unless of course others beside Himself existed. Just seems logical to me, that there would be more. You would have to put up a pretty logical and sound argument to get me to think otherwise for the bible certainly doesn't answer every question known to man, indeed, not a hundredth of what Jesus said was even written.

 

[Serapha]

So are you saying that Christ and God the Father are separate beings or the same being? Interesting how Christ could be the Word since before time but still be born and still continue on forever. Would that not be a case of a God having pre-existed and then being born and still living forever. You have perhaps in theory at least answered your own question of how God can be from everlasting to everlasting and still be born.

Hi there!



I believe the Word of God renders the statement best.


"it is a mystery"

Christ summed it up when He stated,

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
He didn't say, "I and my Father are two"


~malaka~