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I am not a creationist.

Agonaces of Susa

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sandwiches

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This is a blatantly antisemitic remark that denies that Jews can have empirical experiences.

Do you claim that there is no history in the Bible?

Do you deny the existence of Cyrus the Great, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes?

Then chances are you're an atheist scientist.

Here is the empirical evidence you claim does not exist: Bible History & Archaeology Published by the Biblical Archaeology Society | Biblical Archaeology Review
Are you saying that quotes on a book are empirical evidence of anything?
 
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Nathan Poe

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This is a blatantly antisemitic remark that denies that Jews can have empirical experiences.

They don't -- at least not for the claims that you'd have us believe.

Do you claim that there is no history in the Bible?

As much as can be found in The Wizaed of Oz.

Do you deny the existence of Cyrus the Great, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes?

Do you deny the existence of Kansas, tornadoes, and ruby red slippers?

keep shifting them goalposts -- you'll make people forget about miraculous evidence soon enough
 
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Cabal

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It is evidence for some because some acknowledge it, the rest ignore it.

Either way, faith is not empirical, end of story, you can redefine long-established words all you like but it doesn't make it true. Anything you have to start believing in before it comes detectably true is SIMPLY NOT EMPIRICAL.

It's only a metaphor if you think of 'light' only as referring to photons. Jesus wasn't referring to photons.


Well it sure isn't some kind of magical empirical kind of other-light that only you can detect. You were the one positing it as an antonym to dark energy, so maybe you need to take your own advice.

Then we can safely conclude that there is no evidence for dark energy


I guess you missed the word "hypothetical" there. Maybe you need a dictionary for Christmas?

and that dark energy talk is just so mush noise.

No more so than any other hypothesis. And given your track record of scientific ignorance, I'm not especially worried about your personal opinions :wave:

You wold have a point here if I did make such an admission. But I didn't.

No great loss. It is not empirical anyway. Bye now :wave:
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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<staff edit>
The Bible is a book.

A story book.

A story book written 1000s of years ago.

It's no more evidence for anything than Discworld, Warhammer 40k, or Lord of the Rings.[/quote]
What evidence do you have that Cyrus the Great, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes are mythological figures?

Bible History & Archaeology Published by the Biblical Archaeology Society | Biblical Archaeology Review

A Christian propaganda book IS NOT EVIDENCE.
I suggest you learn the difference between a book and physical archaeological evidence before we continue this any further.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Agonaces of Susa

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As much as can be found in The Wizaed of Oz.
What evidence do you have to prove that Cyrus the Great, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes are mythological figures?

Do you deny the existence of Kansas, tornadoes, and ruby red slippers?
No. Do you?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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So is the "hypothesis" of a round earth -- is that also a myth?
The spherical Earth is an ancient observation not a hypothesis.

Humans have known the Earth is a sphere for millions if not billions of years.

Evolution is the myth you are looking for.
 
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Nathan Poe

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The spherical Earth is an ancient observation not a hypothesis.

Humans have known the Earth is a sphere for millions if not billions of years.

Evolution is the myth you are looking for.


As someone who knows a bit about evolution, and quite a bit about myths, I'd really like to know your definition of "myth."
 
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Gracchus

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You know, I have been a subscriber to BAR for some years. One of the most interesting features is the letters column, where scarcely an issue goes by without a subscription cancellation request by some fundamentalist, outraged because the archaeology does not support a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Still, there are articles by believers and non-believers published. Could you point to an article which you believe supports some point you want to make? Since I do subscribe, I can look it up on line, and we can discuss it.

:wave:
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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As someone who knows a bit about evolution, and quite a bit about myths, I'd really like to know your definition of "myth."
Sure.

It depends upon the context.

When an atheist or Darwinist uses the word myth, that means they are talking about something that is true that they believe to be false based upon no evidence.

For example:

"... judging from the account of the Exodus of the Jews, which they have written themselves, we cannot credit it. The narrative is full of contradictions, and is so absurd and incredible, and even impossible, that we must regard it as a huge myth. There may have been an Exodus from Egypt, of which this account is an exaggeration, but it bears so many evidences of the fabulous that we cast it aside and are led to doubt whether the Jews were ever in Egypt except as tramps and vagabonds ...." -- Richard B. Westbrook, scientist, 1892

"The Bible is myth; Plato is myth; Immanuel Kant is myth; ...." -- Carolyn Merchant, revisionist historian, 2004

As you can see, when atheists and Darwinists use the word myth they are referring to something that is true beyond any reasonable doubt.

When I say myth, I mean either something that is false which Darwinists and atheists believe in based upon no evidence (e.g. evolution), or the real sense of the word which means absolute truth that atheists and Darwinists don't believe in.

"Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals." -- Sonchis of Sais, priest, 6th century

"Le myth est ne de la science." -- Charles F. Dupuis, polymath, 1795

"... what is myth to-day is often history to-morrow." -- Lewis Spence, translator, July 1908

"Many myths contain accurate or reasonable statements about past events, while all historical sources, both primary and secondary, originate in a given cultural milieu and are influenced by cultural practices and beliefs. Because of this, it can be said that all historical accounts, whether Aztec, European, Chinese, or Fijian, are to some extent 'myths' (see Sahlins 1983)." -- Michael E. Smith, historian, 1984

"Like almost everyone else in America, I grew up believing the myth of the objective scientist. Fortunately I was raised on the edges of two very distinct cultures, western European and American Indian...." -- Vine Deloria Jr., historian, 1997

"... science is no different from other mythologies, including Native American myths, all of which are equally valid ...." -- Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman, historians, 2002
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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<staff edit>
In fact you were.

Hercules = Mars

Quetzalcoatl = Venus

Odin = Saturn

Zeus = Jupiter

Ra = The Sun

Loki = Mercury

All real objects that can be observed.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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<staff edit>
Why don't you think the planets are "real objects"?

The ancients realized that the planets were real objects.

And they worshipped them as gods.

"Athena and Aphrodite were both planet Venus deities." -- Charles Ginenthal, historian, 1995

"Are you so impressed also by the planet Jupiter that you would regard it as a chief deity above Sun and Moon? And they worshipped those planets, those gods, in the planets themselves. They were lifting their hands, the Babylonians and the Indians, Hindu, and the Chinese, all, they were lifting their hands to those planets in worshipping them. And human sacrifice were brought to them. Even into recent times, among the American Indians, in the last century still, human sacrifice were brought to the planet Venus." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1966

"It is not easy to understand the idea which was the basis for the identification of the Babylonian gods with the planets." -- Peter Jensen, author, 1890

"Nay, truly, I might carry this matter still higher, and if one planet must be made parent another, justly claim the principal place for Jupiter, probably above 200 times as big as our Earth, and the largest and most considerable of all the Sun's chorus...." -- William Whiston, mathematician, 1737

"The sun, moon and stars, were such noble and glorious bodies, and so visible, so remarkable, so useful [to all] parts of the world; and the heathen nations so generally doted on the worship of them...." -- William Whiston, mathematician, 1737

"In the life of Manco Capac, who was the first Inca, and from whom they began to boast themselves children of the Sun and from whom they derived their idolatrous worship of the Sun, they had an ample account of the deluge." -- Cristo&#769;bal de Molina, priest, 1572

"But possibly these stars which have been called by their names are these gods. They call a certain star Mercury, and likewise a certain other star Mars. But among those stars which are called by the name of gods, is that one which they call Jupiter, and yet with them Jupiter is the world. There also is that one they call Saturn, and yet they give him no small property beside, namely all seeds." -- Augustine, theologian, City of God, 426

"Another of his [Pythagoras's] theories was ... that the sun, and the moon, and the stars, were all Gods...." -- Diogenes Laertius, historian, 3rd century

"... the shrine of Minerva at Sais (whom they consider the same with Isis) ..." -- Plutarch, historian, 1st century

"Since the stars come into existence in the aether, it is reasonable that they possess sensation and intelligence. And from this it follows that the stars are to be reckoned as gods. For it may be observed that the inhabitants of those countries in which the air is pure and rarefied have keener wits and greater powers of understanding than persons who live an a dense and heavy climate.... It is therefore likely that the stars possess surpassing intelligence, since they inhabit the ethereal region of the world. Again, the consciousness and intelligence of the stars is most clearly evinced by their order and regularity ... the stars move of their own free will and because of their intelligence and divinity.... Not yet can it be said that some stronger force compels the heavenly bodies to travel in a manner contrary to their nature, for what stronger force can there be? It remains therefore that the motion of the heavenly bodies is voluntary...Therefore the existence of the gods is so manifest that I can scarcely deem one who denies it to be of sound mind." -- Marcus T. Cicero, philosopher, 1st century B.C.

"... Indra hurled the thunderbolt at Vritra ..." -- Mahabharata, 8th century B.C.

"For he [Manasseh] built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made an Asherah, as did Ahab king of Israel, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them. -- II Kings 21:3

Hercules - Not Mars, in Greek mythology, Ares was representative of Mars. Hercules was the son of Zeus and Hera.
Hercules and Ares are both Mars deities.
 
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Gracchus

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Before we get all confused here, perhaps it would be a good idea for everyone to choose the definition of "myth" that they are using.

"myth (mth) n.
1.
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: "German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth" (Leon Wolff).
[New Latin mythus, from Late Latin mythos, from Greek mythos]"

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

"myth [m&#618;&#952;] n
1. (Myth & Legend / Classical Myth & Legend)
a. a story about superhuman beings of an earlier age taken by preliterate society to be a true account, usually of how natural phenomena, social customs, etc., came into existence
b. another word for mythology [1] [3]
2. a person or thing whose existence is fictional or unproven
3. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) (in modern literature) a theme or character type embodying an idea Hemingway's myth of the male hero
4. (Philosophy) Philosophy (esp in the writings of Plato) an allegory or parable
[via Late Latin from Greek muthos fable, word]"

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003


Of course, if anyone, wants to use a different definition, they should feel free, but know that most here will dismiss them as a babbling idiot, or a very clumsy deceiver.


:wave:
&#12288;
&#12288;
 
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Dannager

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Hercules was a demigod who became deified into the planet Mars.
Do you have a source for this claim? I've never once heard of Hercules being closely associated with Mars. Ares is the usual analogue.

Also, hi everyone. It's been a while.
 
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