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I am not a creationist.

Doveaman

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Oh sure, why not....despite the fact what it describes clearly isn't the same as empirical evidence.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith is the ‘substance’ that proves what we believe is true. This is why it is considered ‘evidence’ of what we believe, the things we cannot physically see.

We believe we have a physical body because it has substance, therefore we know without a doubt that what this substance reveals is true – we have a physical body.

In the same way, faith is the substance that reveals what we believe is true – we have a God. So when we have faith we cannot help but to believe without a doubt there is a God. We can ignore that God or reject that God, but He is still without a doubt true.

This is a level of reality that cannot be fully appreciated by those who do not have such faith. So I can understand the criticisms it gets, especially from atheists:

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they (the things of God) are spiritually discerned...1 Cor 2:13-14.
Then do explain why the Bible also contains verse in direct contradiction to all of this.
Can’t help ya there, never seen those verses.

The apparent contradictions are explained by the verses quoted above. It’s all about spiritual perception, or lack thereof. There really aren’t any contradictions in the spiritual sense, which is what the Bible is – a spiritual book.
 
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Doveaman

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A creationist. Specifically, an old-earth creationist.

Doveaman, the defining statement of creationism is that God directly created part/parts of the universe instantaneously in its present form.
I don’t know what you mean by ‘instantaneously’. Instantaneously would be the snake God created for Moses out of a piece of wood.

According to many creationists it took a duration of ‘six days’, each day having 24 hours, each hour having 60 minutes, each minute having 60 seconds, etc. etc. etc. That’s not instantaneously.
Let me ask you this: do you believe God directly created human beings? That is, one moment there were no human beings, and the next moment there were. If you believe this then you are a creationist.
What is a ‘moment’ to God? Isn’t 13.7 billion years a moment to God?

In any case, Adam was created from ‘dust’. It could have taken some time for that subatomic dust to become atoms, and for those atoms to become elements, and for those elements to become molecules, and for those molecules to become Adam. This could have taken longer than a 'moment'. It could have taken 24 hours or more.
What then needs to be determined is what specific type of creationist you are: young earth, old earth, ID, day-age, preexisting earth that was wiped out and then a 6 day creation, etc.
Like I said before, the duration of ‘six days’ is not instantaneously, especially if you believe conditions already existed before those ‘six days’ began.
No, this puts you in the category of theistic evolutionist. Theistic evolution holds that the processes discovered by science are how God did it. As you put it: "God did it with the big bang."
I believe God did it with electricity, which would have taken some time, even though not necessarily as much time as the big bang, since electrical force is 39 orders of magnitude more powerful than gravitational force.
You don't need to separate cause and effect. You just believe that there is a different cause than deity.
Which cannot be verified in any way.
Cause and effect are separated for most of what happens on the quantum level. Most quantum events have no cause.
No cause that you can detect. Maybe it’s dark energy.
So 2 of the hypotheses about First Cause do not invoke cause.
Doesn’t mean there is none. And you cannot verify there is none.
There is no singularity of the Big Bang.
I can agree with that.
As I said. A creationist. An old earth creationist.
You mean even if I believe it wasn’t instantaneously?
 
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Bushido216

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Faith is the ‘substance’ that proves what we believe is true. This is why it is considered ‘evidence’ of what we believe, the things we cannot physically see.

We believe we have a physical body because it has substance, therefore we know without a doubt that what this substance reveals is true – we have a physical body.

In the same way, faith is the substance that reveals what we believe is true – we have a God. So when we have faith we cannot help but to believe without a doubt there is a God. We can ignore that God or reject that God, but He is still without a doubt true.

This is a level of reality that cannot be fully appreciated by those who do not have such faith. So I can understand the criticisms it gets, especially from atheists:

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they (the things of God) are spiritually discerned...1 Cor 2:13-14.
Can’t help ya there, never seen those verses.

The apparent contradictions are explained by the verses quoted above. It’s all about spiritual perception, or lack thereof. There really aren’t any contradictions in the spiritual sense, which is what the Bible is – a spiritual book.

Give me an equation for faith. If you can't, I disagree with your assessment that faith is substance in the same way that our physical bodies are. Infact, I'd go so far as to say that we ought not treat faith as being in anyway analogous to our physical selves.
 
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Cabal

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Faith is the ‘substance’ that proves what we believe is true. This is why it is considered ‘evidence’ of what we believe, the things we cannot physically see.

We believe we have a physical body because it has substance, therefore we know without a doubt that what this substance reveals is true – we have a physical body.

In the same way, faith is the substance that reveals what we believe is true – we have a God. So when we have faith we cannot help but to believe without a doubt there is a God. We can ignore that God or reject that God, but He is still without a doubt true.

This is a level of reality that cannot be fully appreciated by those who do not have such faith. So I can understand the criticisms it gets, especially from atheists:

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they (the things of God) are spiritually discerned...1 Cor 2:13-14.

So, in other words, it's not empirical. As anything you have to believe in before it appears as true is not empirical.

Thanks for that :wave:

Can’t help ya there, never seen those verses.

You quote a verse saying God can be tested, I post one saying He insist on not being tested.

You quote a verse saying God can proven through nature, I post one saying that it's all about faith.

They don't line up.
 
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Doveaman

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Give me an equation for faith. If you can't, I disagree with your assessment that faith is substance in the same way that our physical bodies are. Infact, I'd go so far as to say that we ought not treat faith as being in anyway analogous to our physical selves.
It's not a substance as our physical bodies are. It is a substance in that it has a real effect on us, in this case spiritual, and because of that real effect we know it is real.

The body analogy is just to show that we know that both the body and the Spirit are real without a doubt because of the effects of their substance.
 
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Doveaman

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So, in other words, it's not empirical. As anything you have to believe in before it appears as true is not empirical.
I already told you that Jesus appeared and we believe because He appeared, not the other way around. Jesus is the empirical evidence, and that empirical evidence has had a positive effect on billions of people over the centuries.

Was Einstein real? What is the empirical evidence for the existence of Einstein? There is more empirical evidence of Jesus than there is of Einstein.
You quote a verse saying God can be tested, I post one saying He insist on not being tested.

You quote a verse saying God can proven through nature, I post one saying that it's all about faith.

They don't line up.
That's because, like I said before, the Bible is a spiritual book that reveals a level of reality that cannot be fully appreciated by those who do not have the spiritual gift of faith. There are no contradictions. There is only a lack of spiritual perception by many. The Bible predicted this lack of perception many many years ago:

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they (the things of God) are spiritually discerned...1 Cor 2:13-14.
 
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Cabal

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I already told you that Jesus appeared and we believe because He appeared, not the other way around.

The people at the time saw him empirically. "We" do not.

Jesus is the empirical evidence, and that empirical evidence has had a positive effect on billions of people over the centuries.

Not empirical effects necessarily. Subjective, or maybe with confounding empirical variables present, yes.

Was Einstein real? What is the empirical evidence for the existence of Einstein? There is more empirical evidence of Jesus than there is of Einstein.

Uh....no. We have photos and autographical sources from Einstein. The same definitely can't be said about Jesus.

That's because, like I said before, the Bible is a spiritual book that reveals a level of reality that cannot be fully appreciated by those who do not have the spiritual gift of faith. There are no contradictions. There is only a lack of spiritual perception by many. The Bible predicted this lack of perception many many years ago:

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they (the things of God) are spiritually discerned...1 Cor 2:13-14.

In other words, it'll all line up if you just believe hard enough. Spectacular.

There is no reason God shouldn't at least make the text internally consistent for a plain reading. It's not exactly that hard.
 
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Doveaman

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The people at the time saw him empirically. "We" do not.

Not empirical effects necessarily. Subjective, or maybe with confounding empirical variables present, yes.
If Jesus is who He said He is (God) and people saw Him empirically then you can be sure that people today are experiencing Him empirically.
Uh....no. We have photos and autographical sources from Einstein. The same definitely can't be said about Jesus.
You 'believe' they are Einstein's photos and writings. And why?...because you were told. Therefore you are relying on faith in the words of your teachers. The same can definitely be said about Jesus.
In other words, it'll all line up if you just believe hard enough. Spectacular.
I think you are confusing God's gift of spiritual faith with the regular human faith. There is no need to "believe hard enough", you cannot help but to believe.
There is no reason God shouldn't at least make the text internally consistent for a plain reading. It's not exactly that hard.
It is plain reading when you have spiritual discernment in reading a spiritual book.

E=mc2 is not considered plain reading for many people who do not have scientific discernment.
 
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Cabal

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If Jesus is who He said He is (God) and people saw Him empirically then you can be sure that people today are experiencing Him empirically.


No, because Jesus is not here empirically today, i.e in the flesh. You didn't have to believe in Jesus to see him, to hear him, back then. Now you do. You can only see God if you start trying to believe in it first.

You 'believe' they are Einstein's photos and writings. And why?...because you were told. Therefore you are relying on faith in the words of your teachers. The same can definitely be said about Jesus.

Except there are people still alive today who met him. And we're not basing all our knowledge of him on one source that would only be first compiled (if we're extending the Bible analogy) in the 2200's, 300 years after he lived.


I think you are confusing God's gift of spiritual faith with the regular human faith. There is no need to "believe hard enough", you cannot help but to believe.

No, it's a choice.

It is plain reading when you have spiritual discernment in reading a spiritual book.

E=mc2 is not considered plain reading for many people who do not have scientific discernment.

The two are not the same. A scientific statement while complicated is still unambiguous. The fact that Christianity has fractured into so many denominations clearly indicates that despite multiple claims of "spiritual discernement" on multiple fronts, people still will interpret the Bible differently, there is no plain reading.

In my opinion, churches should get down on their knees and pray for the same kind of consensus there is among scientists.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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You 'believe' they are Einstein's photos and writings. And why?...because you were told. Therefore you are relying on faith in the words of your teachers. The same can definitely be said about Jesus.
Point of clarification: the photos constitute evidence, thus negating the need for faith. Faith is belief without evidence, but if we have evidence, then we don't have faith.

Obviously, one could imagine a giant conspiracy where this man:

050405_einstein_tongue.widec.jpg


Is called 'Einstein', but everything is a hoax. While that's possible, the alternative hypothesis (that Einstein did in fact exist, and those are genuine photos of him) is far more probable. So much so that one doesn't need faith to believe it.

Trusting authority doesn't require faith, since, more often than not, they have proven their reliability. I am not a biochemist, but I have enough evidence to believe biochemists when they say that fluromethane has a molar mass of 34.03 g/mol. I don't have faith in them, but I do have evidence that they are telling the truth, while not having direct evidence of the molar mass of fluromethane.

Conversely, evidencing one part of the Bible doesn't verify the other parts, since the veracity of one doesn't indicate anything about the veracity of the other. I don't doubt that Exodus is right in that there was an Egypt, and there were Pharaohs, but that doesn't mean the Ten Plagues actually happened, or Moses' rod turned into a snake.
 
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Doveaman

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No, because Jesus is not here empirically today, i.e in the flesh.
Jesus is in the flesh of every Christian: I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live , but Christ lives in me...Gal 2:20.
You didn't have to believe in Jesus to see him, to hear him, back then. Now you do. You can only see God if you start trying to believe in it first.
I take it that you are of the view that seeing is believing. It is not.

For the Christian, believing is seeing, for we live by faith, not by sight...2 Cor 5:7.

In addition, we all see through the eyes, not with the eyes. The brain detects the incoming data then makes us aware of that incoming data. We then begin to believe that there is incoming data. After we begin to believe that there is incoming data we then begin to see it and make sense of it. We believe and then we see.
There is no need to "believe hard enough", you cannot help but to believe.
No, it's a choice.
The belief itself is not a choice. Choice only comes in when we choose to accept or reject what we already believe. Once spiritual faith is imparted (spiritual conviction) we cannot help but to believe, but we can choose to accept or reject what we believe.

God doesn't impart spiritual faith to everyone, though. It think it has something to do with holy pearls, and dogs, and swines...Mat 7:6.
 
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dad

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I am not a creationist. I believe in an old earth as well as a new one. So what does that make me? :)

In the Genesis theory: Genesis 1:1 begins with a summary of the fact that God did it.

Genesis 1:2 then goes on to describe the conditions at the end of the old earth - Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And Genesis 1:3 then go on to describe the beginning of the new earth – And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. .

The idea of some pre existing creation, I think is an idea to compromise with science. In other words, people were not in a position to defend, they thought, a straight forward creation, so they tried to allow for the old ages, they thought they had to accommodate.

The way void and formless is interpreted by some does not allow for any Pre Adamic race.

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]It was not in the form it now is, otherwise it must have a form, as all matter has; it was a fluid matter, the watery parts were not separated from the earthy ones; it was not put into the form of a terraqueous globe it is now, the sea apart, and the earth by itself, but were mixed and blended together; it was, as both the Targums of Jonathan and Jerusalem paraphrase it, a waste and desert, empty and destitute of both men and beasts; and it may be added, of fishes and fowls, and also of trees, herbs, and plants."
Genesis - Chapter 1 - Verse 2 - The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible on StudyLight.org

"
[/FONT]b. Some have sought to translate the idea in this verse as the earth became without form and void. Their thinking is the earth was originally created not without form and void, but it became without form and void through the destructive work of Satan. However, this is not the plain grammatical sense of the Hebrew."
Genesis - Chapter 1 - David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible on StudyLight.org


1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening [SIZE=-1][/SIZE] and the morning were the first day.



There is no reason to pick anything out of here, that was not done on the first day. All things listed are summed up as being the first day.
 
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Doveaman

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The idea of some pre existing creation, I think is an idea to compromise with science...The way void and formless is interpreted by some does not allow for any Pre Adamic race.
If the earth became void and formless then there is allowance for a Pre Adamic race before it became void and formless. Even though I believe this race would not have been intelligent man, but primitive animal.
"It was not in the form it now is, otherwise it must have a form, as all matter has
It was formless and empty in that it was not in a condition suitable for life, which is why it was created in the first place (Isa 45:18). A planet like mercury would be considered formless and empty, biblically speaking. If it has no kind of life, or does not contribute to life in any way, then it is formless and empty.

This is probably why the other planets were not mentioned in the Genesis 1 account, but only the moon and stars, because those other planets were also formless and empty, and still appear to be.
it was a fluid matter...
You mean like some kind of cake soup...a box of cake mix with three quarter cups of warm water added, then all blended up together waiting to be baked?

That sounds like a reasonable hypothesis, but until a single hypothesis is verified to be true then your guess is as good as mine.
it was...a waste and desert, empty and destitute of both men and beasts...of fishes and fowls, and also of trees, herbs, and plants."
Yes...as well as of Dsungaripterus, Elasmosaurus, Brachiosaurus, Tyrannosaurus and the like, because they had all become extinct by the time of the formless, empty ‘cake soup’.
"b. Some have sought to translate the idea in this verse as the earth became without form and void...through the destructive work of Satan. However, this is not the plain grammatical sense of the Hebrew."
The Hebrew was not concerned with the Pre Adamic age, but with the earth as is today.

However, that fact that a Pre Adamic earth that was formless, empty, dark, and buried in water existed, as in Genesis 1:2, in addition to the fossil records and other scientific evidence, we can reasonably conclude that the earth became formless, empty, dark, and buried in water, perhaps because of some cataclysmic event that obliterated its biosphere.

We now live in a new biosphere that was created in six days specifically for man in God’s image. This is why God gave man dominion over this Adamic earth instead of giving it to the Pre Adamic dinosaurs.
Genesis - Chapter 1 - David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible on StudyLight.org :

"Most "Gap Theory" adherents use the theory to explain the fossil record, assigning old and extinct fossils to this indefinite gap."
This is probably in part because it makes a lot more sense than to believe that Noah packed thousands of Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous giant species, a male and his female, into his tiny little wooden boat for shipment.
"iii. Whatever merit the gap theory may have, it cannot explain the extinction and fossilization of ancient animals."
Maybe science has the answer since the bible is not concerned with the Pre Adamic earth. I believe true religion and good science are compatible.

Maybe it was a Pre Adamic flood since Genesis 1:2 speak of the earth as being buried in deep water.

Or maybe it was a cosmic lightning bolt that swept across the face of the earth.
"The Bible says plainly death came by Adam (Romans 5:12), and since fossils are the result of death, they could not have happened before Adam's time."
Death is a result of sin. Any form of conduct that is contrary to the will of God is sin. Death is the consequence of such conduct.

Death came into this present world through Adam, but this does not mean that death could not have occurred in the Pre Adamic world since Satan (the author of sin) existed long before Adam.

I tend to lean toward the idea that animals can sin since they do conduct themselves contrary to the will of God, especially when they decide to kidnap and eat little children. Such animals are deserving of the death. Otherwise, why would animals die because of the sin of man unless the animals themselves sinned also?
c. When God created the earth, He quite likely built an "old" earth, creating things in the midst of a time sequence, with age "built in."
Or maybe it was just accelerated growth of the earth's biosphere. But this does not refute the fact that a formless empty earth existed, as in verse 2, before the six days of the creation of that biosphere began, as in verse 3.
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
“Created” implies a creation completed.
2 And the earth was without form, and void;
The earth could have become that way if the job of creation was already completed as could be implied in verse 1.

Even though I believe the Genesis account were literal physical events, often times God uses literal physical events as metaphors of spiritual reality. E.g. Israel’s literal physical journey from Egypt to Palestine is a metaphor of the church’s spiritual journey from sin to righteousness.

The Pre Adamic earth being formless and void I see as a metaphor of death.
and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
Darkness I see as a metaphor of sin.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The deep waters I see as a metaphor of burial (water baptism).
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Light I see as a metaphor of resurrection (the sun (or Son) rising to give light).
4 And God saw the light, that it was good
What I also find interesting is that this Genesis 1 'resurrection' light occurs in the third verse, and the first forms of life on earth occurred on the third day.

Maybe the gospel of Christ’ death, burial, and resurrection for the sins of the whole world was being metaphorically proclaimed through the literal physical creation events, after all Christ was “the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world”...Rev 13:8.
and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

There is no reason to pick anything out of here, that was not done on the first day. All things listed are summed up as being the first day.
Well, from what I gather, the first day began when God created and separated the light from the darkness and called the darkness ‘night’ (evening) and the light He called ‘day’ (morning). And the evening (darkness) and the morning (light) were the first day.

Whatever occurred before this ‘morning light’ was created would not be considered as being a part of the first day since the first day is composed of this newly created 'morning light'.
 
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LordTimothytheWise

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cabal said:
No, because Jesus is not here empirically today, i.e in the flesh. You didn't have to believe in Jesus to see him, to hear him, back then. Now you do. You can only see God if you start trying to believe in it first.

doveman said:
Jesus is in the flesh of every Christian: I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live , but Christ lives in me...Gal 2:20.
You really aren't getting what he is trying to say are you?
 
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Doveaman

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You really aren't getting what he is trying to say are you?
I am. The thing is that seeing Jesus is not the same as seeing you. Jesus was more than just flesh that is seen; He is also known. I know Him.
 
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Cabal

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I am. The thing is that seeing Jesus is not the same as seeing you. Jesus was more than just flesh that is seen; He is also known. I know Him.

That knowing is not and will never be empirical, however.
 
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Doveaman

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That knowing is not and will never be empirical, however.
Yeah, but only for some people.

Tell me, Cabal, what is the empirical evidence of dark energy?

Jesus refers to Himself as the light of the world (Joh 8:12). In other words, Jesus is Light Energy.

The rapid expansion of the universe is considered to be empirical evidence of dark energy. Even so the rapid existence of the universe is considered to be empirical evidence of Light Energy (Christ). For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible...all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Col 1:16-17).

The very existence of the universe is empirical evidence of the Light Energy of Christ. This is why we are told: For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

We can try to ignore or deny this empirical evidence of God if we like, but the evidence of God is undeniable. We have no excuse.
 
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Doveaman

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what it is, is its so much easier to just lift quotes from a book
I guess it's easier for me to believe that you are real simply by reading your posts than it is to believe God is real by reading His holy book. I think not. God is more real than you are.
than it is to think and write.
Do you even know what it means to 'think'? Do you know how we are able to 'think' in the first place? How does 'thinking' work? What is the mechanism of 'thinking'? Do you know?
 
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Cabal

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Yeah, but only for some people.

And as soon as it's only evidence for some and not all, it's no longer empirical.

Tell me, Cabal, what is the empirical evidence of dark energy?

Jesus refers to Himself as the light of the world (Joh 8:12). In other words, Jesus is Light Energy.

No, that's a metaphor, dear.

The rapid expansion of the universe is considered to be empirical evidence of dark energy. Even so the rapid existence of the universe is considered to be empirical evidence of Light Energy (Christ). For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible...all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Col 1:16-17).

The very existence of the universe is empirical evidence of the Light Energy of Christ. This is why we are told: For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

Uh no. Dark energy is a hypothetical explanation for the expansion of the universe. Expansion of the universe is not evidence for dark energy, so the rest of this post is so much noise.

We can try to ignore or deny this empirical evidence of God if we like, but the evidence of God is undeniable. We have no excuse.

And so is this, because by your own admission the "evidence" is by definition not empirical :wave:
 
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Doveaman

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And as soon as it's only evidence for some and not all, it's no longer empirical.
It is evidence for some because some acknowledge it, the rest ignore it.
No, that's a metaphor, dear.
It's only a metaphor if you think of 'light' only as referring to photons. Jesus wasn't referring to photons.
Uh no. Dark energy is a hypothetical explanation for the expansion of the universe. Expansion of the universe is not evidence for dark energy, so the rest of this post is so much noise.
Then we can safely conclude that there is no evidence for dark energy, and that dark energy talk is just so mush noise.
And so is this, because by your own admission the "evidence" is by definition not empirical
You wold have a point here if I did make such an admission. But I didn't.
 
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