I am confused.

[iac]

I am very confused about predestination. There are a lot of verses in the Bible that support it and a lot that don't. Such as : "Behold I stand at the door and knock whosoever opens I will come in and dine with him and he with me." This verse shows that He knocks to everyone's doors and he wait to see if they choose to open. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." This verse shows that any can believe.


I do not know of any at the moment but I know there are quite a few verses that support predestination.


A few questions about it.

1. So if predestination is true then God withholds His grace from some and makes others accept? I'm sure I'm wrong on that but that is why I make the thread.

2. Didn't Jesus die for the whole world at not only certain people? Then why does the calling only come to some?

3. If God predestined all to happen does that mean He predestined us to sin? Wouldn't that make Him the author of sin?

4. If when God shows His grace to one that person is predestined to accept and thereby doesn't do it by free-will?

5. If God planned it and all does that mean we don't have free will?

6. If God's grace is irresistable to all then why doesn't He give to all and not just a few?

7. And if God predestined some to be saved why do we preach? Why are there preachers if predestination is true?

As you can see I am quite confused. I was always taught that predestination isn't true but if it is I will accept it. I don't want to believe the wrong one but I do know that this is an in-house debate and doesn't matter in eternity.

So if anyone can answer my questions I would greatly appretiate it.

 

[iac]

I was always taught to believe that God does 99% and the other 1% is up to us. Am I wrong on that?

 

[endure]

i think all that comes down to an understanding of one truth.
though i think most people disagree with this, and ive never even heard it taught by anyone else except for the one man who taught it to me.

i think that YES we are all predestined. YES, predestination is the truth.
BUT, predestination DOES NOT mean what most people take it to mean.
the bible says in
ephesians 1.5
"having predestinated us..."

so yes we are predestined.

but, many many people take that to mean what whatever end you come to, that must be where God intended you to end up...
but that i beleive is not the truth, becuase this is what the bible says

1 timithy 2.4,6 that God
"...will have ALL men to be saved...gave himself a ransom for ALL..."

yes i beleive in predestination, but predestination doesnt mean your fate is already determined to such an extent that you cant get away from it.
it cant be, becuase there are people in hell today, and we know God didnt want that.
and the bible says that Gods will for EVERY MANS LIFE, is that they be saved.
God never desired or predestined ANY man to go to hell.
God desires ALL men, to be saved.
the bible says in another place, i beleive the book of 1 peter, that he is not willing that ANY should perish. he doesnt want anyone in hell.
but many people believe, that us being predestined, means that we do what we do becuase we were predestined.
predestination is why were saved becuase thats how we could be saved.
not becuase it made us choose to be saved.

since we know Gods desire would naturally be his plan for us, we know God desires that everyman go to heavon so he planned for every man to go heavon too. thats his desire and plan, thats what he predestined.

this is what i believe, and if it doesnt fit with you, well just keep seeking the Lord, but i do believe this is the truth.

God predestined EVERYMAN to be saved....
but just becuase we are predestined, doesnt mean it will come to pass.
becuase yes we are predestined...but like you said, he sometimes waits at the door and nocks...
and this is how those 2 truths fit together.
predestination doesnt mean you will be saved, it means that was how God preplanned for you to live, but we do not always follow his will for our lives.
i beleive the very fact that we can disobey him, that we can step out of his will, proves that our lives are not dictated by his desire for us.
so, no i do not beleive there is any force working in us, that will cause us to do his will and cause us to end up like he wanted us to end up, if there was such a power, we wouldnt ever disobey God.

all men are predestined to be saved, but not all choose to follow God in that and accept him as their savior, so they end up in hell.
but not becuase God predestined them to be in hell, the bible clearly says that he wills all men to saved, died for all men, and is willing that not one perish.

you being predestined, doesnt mean you will do anything a certain way.
it only means that that is how he decided and chose and wanted for you to live from the beginning of time, but that doesnt mean you will do that, and it doesnt mean it will come to pass. or else we must beleive that God also wanted people to burn in hell people who never even heard the gospel, and thats not true.
id rather serve a God that cant control everything, than one who chooses some to burn in a fiery hell for all eternity before they even get a chance to do well.
the reason paul said "im saved becuase i was predestined" is becuase he was saying that his salvation came becuase it was available becuase thats what determined to happen.
like "i can do this, becuase God did this..."
he wasnt saying that he was saved and couldnt help but be saved because God decided for him to be saved and made him get saved.
becuase if there is such a force out there, then we must also beleive it caused those who are in hell to be in hell, no matter what, and they really didnt even deserve it, but it was becuase God forcing them to be there and wanted them there.
many people have come to accept that...but no...i wont.

i mean its like we all get in a line and God doesnt even ask names, he just walks down the line and says YOU, YOU, YOU AND YOU.... your going to burn in hell forever, and they all say WHAT? WHAT DID I DO? YOU DIDNT EVEN GIVE ME A CHANCE!? PLEASE, I WILL BELEIVE, PLEASE, I WILL FOLLOW YOU....but God says NO, SOMEONE HAS TO GO, AND IT MIGHT AS WELL BE YOU...
no...Gods not like that.
the bible says every man will judged according to his WORKS...
not what God preplanned for him, or else our works would mean nothing.


i know i didnt specificly answer your questions, i may tommorow if youd like me to try too.
but does that clear somethings up?

Lee.

 

[Yitzchak]

Romans chapter nine talks about this specific subject. It is not an easy subject to understand. Every person in life has a purpose. Only thing is some have a purpose of showing a negative example and others a positive. Romans nine calls it vessels of honor and dishonor. The thing which I get out of it is that everything doesn't revolve around us. We can be quite self-centered. But perhaps there are larger issues in the cosmic sceme of things than just our individual salvation.

 

[iac]

Endure, I think I get what you're saying. It makes some sense to me, but I am still confused.
So you are saying God preplanned it all the way He would've liked it to go but we still can run away from it? Is that what you're saying?

Yitzchak, so you are saying some peoples' purppose is for bad things?

 

[looksgood]

The word predestination means your path is set. BUT it does not mean it was set FOR you by God. We chose our path and we set it. And God will not force someone to change their path. So your destiny is FORKNOWN by God but determined by you.

A few questions about it.

1. So if predestination is true then God withholds His grace from some and makes others accept? I'm sure I'm wrong on that but that is why I make the thread.

LOL, yeah you got it right that you were wrong lol. God does not withold grace from those who seek it. And He does not force it upon those who deny it. Your destination is predesided by you. Remember destination is where you will be...not where you are. And God said "The preparations of the heart are for men, but the answer of the lips is from God" In other words we set our goal and God directs our feet to go in that way.

2. Didn't Jesus die for the whole world at not only certain people? Then why does the calling only come to some?

It comes to all. But few answer.

3. If God predestined all to happen does that mean He predestined us to sin? Wouldn't that make Him the author of sin?

That means he alowed us to walk in the path we chose.

4. If when God shows His grace to one that person is predestined to accept and thereby doesn't do it by free-will?

We chose to accept what God has done for us on our own free will. Thus we made our destiny.

5. If God planned it and all does that mean we don't have free will?

Nope it does not. It means we chose to go along with His plan. The children of disobediance chose to disobea and thus they deside their destination. But God calls all.

6. If God's grace is irresistable to all then why doesn't He give to all and not just a few?

He gives to all who accept it.

7. And if God predestined some to be saved why do we preach? Why are there preachers if predestination is true?

Think of the vessals of honor and dishonor. God sets our destination when we make the choice as to what we want it to be. If honor then He will make us honor. If not we will be made dishonorable. But a potter can break the dishonorable one and make a new one of honor out of it. Our destiny is set by our choice. God having forknown us already knows our destiny. But we chose it.

 

[iac]

The word predestination means your path is set. BUT it does not mean it was set FOR you by God. We chose our path and we set it. And God will not force someone to change their path. So your destiny is FORKNOWN by God but determined by you.


LOL, yeah you got it right that you were wrong lol. God does not withold grace from those who seek it. And He does not force it upon those who deny it. Your destination is predesided by you. Remember destination is where you will be...not where you are. And God said "The preparations of the heart are for men, but the answer of the lips is from God" In other words we set our goal and God directs our feet to go in that way.



It comes to all. But few answer.



That means he alowed us to walk in the path we chose.



We chose to accept what God has done for us on our own free will. Thus we made our destiny.



Nope it does not. It means we chose to go along with His plan. The children of disobediance chose to disobea and thus they deside their destination. But God calls all.



He gives to all who accept it.



Think of the vessals of honor and dishonor. God sets our destination when we make the choice as to what we want it to be. If honor then He will make us honor. If not we will be made dishonorable. But a potter can break the dishonorable one and make a new one of honor out of it. Our destiny is set by our choice. God having forknown us already knows our destiny. But we chose it.

Hmmm, I've never really heard what you say it is before. Your's seems to make sense, but it doesn't seem to be the same thing. It's hard to explain. Have you ever listened to RC Sproul (not sure if I spelled it right) and heard how he explains it? Those questions are for his definition of predestination. He has got a really confusing view.

 

[looksgood]

No idea who that is. All I know is that we make the choice for our destiny. And God makes it happen. We chose to follow Him and He lights the way. Thus we are destined to be with Him. If we chose to not follow Him He alows that. Thus we are destined to be lost, because that is our choice.

 

[Yitzchak]

Yitzchak, so you are saying some peoples' purppose is for bad things?

One of the things I learned from jewish theology is that the Lord is using all of life to teach/preach one long exposition (sermon) on TORAH (God's word or law). For those that have eyes to see or ears to hear every persona dn every situation is a part of that sermon. It is like when a pastor preaches a sermon from the bible and uses stories and real life examples to illustrate his points and make the passage come alive. The Lord is doing this too except God is choosing to reveal things over a really long time period throughout history. Some people reveal his wrath and anger against sin and others reveal his mercy. Not to mention countless other lessons as well. Such as "midda-keneged-midda" and the Lord's mercy.
This jewish teaching seems to be reflected in Romans nine. The quote in Romans 9:15 is out of Exodus where Moses asked to see God's glory revealed. I think it is telling that God responds in this way when he shows Moses more of Himself unveiled. The goodness of God passed before Moses and the Lord talks about His compassion.
As far as a person having a purpose for bad things it is their sins that make it that way. And as the scripture says in Romans and Exodus under both covenants, God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy.

 

[iac]

So do those that are part of the sermon to be an example of God's wrath still have a chance at salvation?

 

[Breetai]

Yaa! Endure totally got it!!! Yes!!! (In my humble view anyway.)

I had a girlfriend that broke-up with me. She told me that if God meant us to be togather, then we would get back togather. God might mean for something to happen, but it is us who make it happen. When God reveals himself to us, we can choose to ignore Him. This is not what he are destined to do, yet some of us do just that. We are predestined to be saved, yet some of us are not. Free will. God knows what we will do, but it is us who do it.

As you can imagine, my former girlfriends words were not at all comforting to me.

 

[Breetai]

Well, except for the last paragraph on works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Breetai]

Some people use 2 Corinthians 5:10 to argue that by works we are saved.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

That verse is completely out of context. Paul is taking of those whom are already saved by the blood of the Lamb. Here is the verse in context:

Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:1-10)

Another commonly misinterpreted verse is James 2:14-16: "Faith without works is dead." This passage does not teach that salvation is accomplished by any human effort, but instead that no one can see one's faith without works. James uses Abraham as his example, just as Paul did in Romans 4. However, James discusses how one's actions "justify" him before other men, and Paul discusses justification before God (how one becomes saved).

 

[iac]

I know we can't be saved by works. Nobody has to argue about that with me.

Okay so can you explain the "elect" people talked about in the Bible?

 

[Breetai]

I wasn't telling you (iac) that we aren't saved by works. I went on that tangent because of what Endure said (whether he meant it or not).

The "elect"? As far as I know, it simply refers to those whom are saved. In other words, the elect is the entire Christian Church.

I'm too worn out to do any more research on the "elect" or Calvinism right now, sorry.

My last girlfriend was Calvinist, I've had so many discussions with her about predestination that I'm sick of it.

 

[iac]

Oh, okay.

 

[Yitzchak]

So do those that are part of the sermon to be an example of God's wrath still have a chance at salvation?

I think the bottom line of the whole subject is the only hope a person has is to fall utterly upon God's mercy. The scripture plainly says God will have mercy upon whom he will. That says to me that God retains to Himself the sovreign right to save whomever he wishes. So my answer is yes every person has a chance at salvation.

 

[endure]

iac
i am saying that just becuase your predestined, doesnt mean it will come to pass. because your predestination only refers to Gods will for your life, not what you will chose to do and what will actually happen.
we disobey God all the time, it cant be true that we are dictated by his will.
i dont beleive anyone is predestined to go to hell, becuase the bible says he wills for all to go to heavon.


you asked

So you are saying God preplanned it all the way He would've liked it to go but we still can run away from it?

that is exactly what im saying.

though i know few people except that that could ever be true.
but i think it is far too clear, the bible says he wills for everyman to be saved, and he died for everyman to be saved, but you know it didnt happen...
becuase we have free will and the ability to disobey. and choose life or death...as he said to the isrealites.."this day i set before YOU life or death. choose life."
thats also why the psalmists said
"even if I MAKE MY BED in hell...he is there"
people dont go to hell becuase God puts em there, they make their own bed there.

did i answer your question?

breetai
well man...im not going to debate this. but you do know i was just quoting the scripture right?
go read rev 12.20 and then come and well talk about this in a friendly manner.
i understand that we are not saved by any human effort or will, but by the hand of God and mercy, i know that.
if you want to talk about this then we can do that, well create another thread and talk about it there.
oh, and if you are interested in deciding whos right or wrong, that doesnt mean anything to me. but getting to the bottom of this for the sake of the truth and for yoursake and my sake, that interests me. but the moment it becomes centered around "im right your wrong" im out, becuase that doesnt matter in eternity.

 

[iac]

But some people say that God's grace is irresistable and since not all accept His grace that must mean that not all see His grace. Is there anything in the Bible that even remotely points to that? I must know.

 

[endure]

yes i think i know a few scriptures that relate to that.

1 cor 15.10
but by the grace of God i am what i am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain, but i labored...

galations 2.21
i do not fustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

galations 5.4
Christ is become of none effect unto you...ye are fallen from grace.

2 cor 6.1
we then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.


i think all those scriptures illustrate a few points.

1.it is possible to do or not do things that cause Christs death and sacrifice for you to have no effect on you.
2.Gods grace can be fustrated by you.
3.Gods grace can vainly come to you.

it is very possible for Gods grace to not be allowed to have an effect on your life, there are several things you can do that will keep Gods grace from doing you any good.

you may want to read the full context to find exactly what they said those things were and learn it more in depth if you need to, but the point im trying to make is that yes it is possible to refuse the grace of God and come to a place where it can do you no good.
not that you can never be saved, but the way you are acting and being you cant presently, untill you change.
just becuase Christ died and extends grace to you, doesnt mean it changes you. you have to recieve it and thats up to you.

john 1.12
but as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that beleive on his name.

we both know Christ died for all and loved all and wanted all to be saved.
but it says here that only those who received him could be saved.
that means it is possible for God to want you saved, and you not receive it, and it never happen.