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I am an intelligent design theorist.

shernren

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A recent discussion here (introduction courtesy of Philadiddle) helped me realize that, in fact, I have been an Intelligent Design theorist for the longest time.

The pertinent paragraphs read like this:

Lou said:
Snow is chemically inert compared to water in other states. At the macroscopic level, since snowflakes are unique, we would have to say that the pattern of snowflakes is highly disordered, otherwise we should see large numbers of identical patterns.

And furthermore, none of these things produce codes. There is a huge difference between the most complicated forms of chaos and even the simplest form of codes. Codes have an entire dimension of order that chaos doesn't have: Symbolic Information.

Chaos appears to produce a high degree of order, but it does not produce functional organized complexity that carries information such as language or code found in the DNA molecule. There is no encoding/decoding mechanism when water is crystallizing, nor is there a system of symbols that are produced.

My first response was to show how wrong-headed his argument was. In my reply (which the moderators don't seem to have put up yet - too hot? ;)) I pointed out that snowflakes carry information too: they can have different sizes, different shapes (pointy or round or in-between), and they can fall at different rates (a large snowstorm would have lots of snowflakes which reach the ground at similar times, while a light drizzle would have very few snowflakes which reach the ground at spaced-out times).

All this is information that can be processed by an information-processing structure - in my example, a ski slope on which the snowflakes fall - to give an outcome that depends causally on the sequence and content of the input information - namely an avalanche, and what kind of avalanche it is.

DNA is processed by cellular machinery to produce life.
"Snow-NA" is processed by a ski slope to produce avalanches.

A complete analogy, and one that shows the intellectual vacuity of ID, I thought.

=========

Then I sat back and realized that this wasn't the first time I had fought ID, not by denying design, but by extending it. I love giving examples of things that may seem designed, but actually aren't. (Or are they?)

Of course, we can always go in the other direction. Evolutionists like to give examples of bad design - the panda's thumb, the giraffe's vagus nerve, where biological features actually appear to be not-designed. I've always found that method a bit inelegant, if only because one cannot simply induce from badly designed features to conclude that all biological features are badly designed. That kind of argument is exactly on the same logical ground as IDers' arguments that since some features appear designed, all biological features are actually designed.

I like to argue for surprising design. I've argued before that aliens from a planet with hard, jagged rocks and no flowing water would find our riverbeds and the smooth stones littering them to be "intelligently designed", artistic even; I'm arguing here that snowflakes are "designed" for avalanches just as DNA is "designed" to produce life. Throw in a third example: God says to Noah that He has placed the rainbow in the sky as a testament to His covenant to not destroy the Earth. If you take that in the conservative hermeneutic - as most IDers are wont to do - you end up having to believe that the rainbow, a clearly physical artefact of optics and the chemistry of water, is actually intelligently designed.

It is a logically adequate argument against ID:

ID-predicate-1: Life appears designed.
ID-predicate-2: Anything that appears designed is actually designed (implicit).
ID-1 + ID-2 => ID-conclusion: Life is designed.
SR-predicate: Some things that appear designed are not actually designed.
ID-1 + SR => SR-conclusion: Life may not be designed.

But it logically does not lead to the conclusion that might appear to be the opposite of ID, namely that life is not designed. All I can say is that life may not be designed. I've always wondered about that.

Last night while thinking about my answer to Lou, I had an epiphany: I've been opposing the IDers, not because I believe less in intelligent design than them, but because I believe it more.

To the IDer, life has detectable design. What is their "null hypothesis", their un-design against which one can detect design? It is the rest of creation! To them, rocks and snow and lightning and the expanse of the starry sky all appear not to be designed. To them, the universe is a vast desert of random, meaningless chaos (their concept, not mine), against which the Earth holds a puny, tiny drop of cosmically insignificant designed life-forms.

I can't live with that. (I'm a physicist: I study these "meaningless" things for a livelihood.)

I don't believe that a God who would, by the IDers' estimation, carefully engineer and design life on Earth, would leave the rest of the starry sky to "chaos" and "chance". I don't believe in attributing rationality and beauty to life if I am to do so by expressly comparing it to "disordered", "simple", and "chaotic" weather - the great clouds that so often give us beautiful sunsets, the lightning that streaks across the sky and the thunder that follows close after like the very voice of God Himself, the delicate snowflakes each unique and unrepeatable.

=========

I am an intelligent design theorist, you see: I believe the universe was intelligently designed, nay, is intelligently designed, intelligently upheld every single moment by the sovereign decree of the Godhead and intelligently prevented from sliding back into the existential chaos of non-being. I believe that the stars and the sky and the clouds and the sea and the land were intelligently designed. Why, that means I believe in more intelligent design than the entire Disco Institute put together. They believe in a small rock covered with a thin film of intelligent design hanging in a vast, dark, stupid universe; I believe in 14 billion cubic light-years of intelligent design and more.

I am an intelligent design theorist. I believe that, just as competent designers today utilize vast arrays of tools to help them design things, God used the vast array of natural laws and processes to design the universe. I do not believe in the impotent god of conventional ID against whom the forces of natural laws are so oppressive and so powerful that he has to hide from the laws of physics and probability to get anything done, a god who has to sneak biological innovation into nature like a smuggler moving drugs into a country whose laws forbid it. I reject the idea that God was so constrained by the laws of nature that He needed a miracle to get things right and produce life; I believe that God created the laws of nature, and that the very laws that ID has to try to reject or bend or break to promulgate its views were in fact the very things that God intelligently designed.

I am an intelligent design theorist. I believe that the human reaction to the intelligent design of the universe is so deep and profound that it cannot be limited to the natural sciences. I believe that every painting of a sunset, whether it is a five-year-old's first doodlings or the masterpiece of a landscape painter, is a testimony to the intelligent design of the Sun with its light source and the Earth's atmosphere that magnificently directs and rearranges its red light into an art form every evening. I reject the cold approach of conventional ID, which characterizes design by the artificial, almost mechanical concept of "specified complexity", which resorts to calculations and models (and politics) to try to pin down design and then for all of that misses the most basic of human responses to the design of the universe, like the obvious joy in a child's face beholding the wondrous scarlet sky at dusk. And I reject conventional ID's craven obsession with the sciences, its haranguing of biology in the same way that a boy full of puppy love will follow a girl around everywhere and yet deny that he is infatuated when asked. Why does ID think that design is a science? The artists and the theologians know a hundred times more about the design of the universe than ID will ever achieve in its (hopefully short) intellectual lifetime.

I am an intelligent design theorist. I take the Bible at face value when it declares, in Psalm 19, that the stars shout God's glory in every language imaginable. I take the Bible at face value when it declares, in Romans 1, that creation leaves men without excuse for rejecting God - and that creation was creation accessible in the first century AD and its science, the creation of dusty jars of clay and donkeys and demons and Paul, the creation where the smallest seed was a mustard seed and the stars were the homes of angels, the creation perhaps even when the earth was considered flat and immobile. I reject conventional ID which has to reduce itself to the tiniest features of disease-producing organisms and the inscrutable coils of genetic code before committing itself to saying that they have found God's fingerprints, straining themselves to hear whispers of God's creation (and really just scratching their own itching ears) while ignoring the megaphone of the backyard sky.

I am an intelligent design theorist, and because I am intelligent I know that truth is born in creation and proven by the slow, steady progress of hard work; not by shrill declarations of right and wrong in law courts and cinemas, not by fatuous connections of good, hardworkins scientists with Nazism and of unfavored judges with animated flatulence, and certainly not by lying to interview sources and censoring opposing views in discussions.

I am an intelligent design theorist. Are you?
 

BobW188

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Yes, and like you I've learned that you discard a lot of excess baggage when you go to lower case: take the capital "I" from "intelligent" and the capital "D" from "design."

In the same sense, you could call me a lower-case creationist.

I think the only area where you and I might differ is that I think God may intervene in a creation that grows by his established natural laws. He may now and then wind Paley's watch, as it were, or reset the hands. In fact, my faith teaches me that He did intervene: through the prophets and through his embodied presence as Jesus Christ. I can't rule out that what he did in human times he did in other ways in prehistory.
 
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philadiddle

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A recent discussion here (introduction courtesy of Philadiddle) helped me realize that, in fact, I have been an Intelligent Design theorist for the longest time.
I just had a post declined there where I was defending the doctrine of the fall from an allegorical standpoint in the "Death and the Fall" thread. Makes me mad cause they don't tell you why it is declined. A fair warning, it will probably happen to you too at some point.
 
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shernren

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I just had a post declined there where I was defending the doctrine of the fall from an allegorical standpoint in the "Death and the Fall" thread. Makes me mad cause they don't tell you why it is declined. A fair warning, it will probably happen to you too at some point.
Yes, the snowflake post I was alluding to in this OP was declined.

(And that when another post I wrote, which ended caustically with me saying creationists don't understand the Bible they defend, was accepted!)

Ah well. That proves that the moderators are intelligent: their decisions don't make any natural sense ...
 
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shernren

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I think the only area where you and I might differ is that I think God may intervene in a creation that grows by his established natural laws. He may now and then wind Paley's watch, as it were, or reset the hands. In fact, my faith teaches me that He did intervene: through the prophets and through his embodied presence as Jesus Christ. I can't rule out that what he did in human times he did in other ways in prehistory.

I like the idea. But I don't like that word "intervene".

"Intervene" sounds like someone who dozes off on a hot Saturday afternoon leaving matches in full view of the kids and wakes up to a house burning down and is forced to call in the fire brigade. "Intervene" is what cops do to robbers and doctors to diseases: in short, "intervening" is done by people who are not naturally in control of the things they are intervening in.

I think it's obvious why, given the undertones of the word, we must be very cautious to speak of God as intervening.

Let's say instead that at certain points in history God reveals His holy impassibility in transcendent as well as / instead of immanent ways. Unpacking that:

Creation's only bulwark from collapsing once again into the chaos of nothingness is God's continual loving, permitting and willing it into existence. In doing so God shows Himself to be loving, and impassible: because He has promised Himself to uphold creation (at least for now), His will to do so cannot be shaken no matter how violently man perpetrates evil against Him, against themselves and against the rest of creation. No matter how hard it tries, creation and man simply cannot commit suicide by cop, at least before the appointed time of God's final judgment. If it could, it would have shown itself capable of overriding God's otherwise holy and impassible will.

However, this continual demonstration of holy impassibility is immanent: it is mediated through the existence of creation. If creation had not existed, God would not have been able to demonstrate His holy impassibility in such a way. But God's holiness is transcendent: God is holy not only when He has a creation to relate to, but also when He does not. He is holy and impassible in and of Himself.

Miracles, then, are God's demonstration of transcendent holiness. Miracles are God's way of revealing that His holiness is so great that creation is ultimately subservient to Him, even if man is temporarily allowed to rebel against Him and still exist.

The providential action of God reveals that He is a Father, then; the miraculous action of God reveals that He is the LORD. Everything God does reveals Himself, and both providence and miracle are revelation. If we don't believe that God acts in providence, we become orphans who don't know if God still loves the universe in Himself; if we don't believe that God acts in miracle, we become hostages who don't know if God can win the universe to Himself.

Take the cross and resurrection (as we always should: any doctrine that is not demonstrable in the cross and resurrection may not be crucial to our faith). The cross is an entirely natural event: natural demagoguery, natural trials, natural suffering, natural death. God refuses to stop man, even though He could at any point, from perpetrating the ultimate injustice that has ever been seen on Earth. As a result, Jesus identifies Himself entirely with man, displays His complete humanity, qualifies Himself to be man's substitute and makes His sufferings able to pay the price for mankind's sin.

The resurrection is an entirely unnatural event: unnatural rescue from death, unnatural ground-shaking, angels and an empty tomb. God pronounces that His own holy justice has overturned the unjust human sentence which God had for a time (but no longer) permitted to stand. In His holy declaration, the order of natural things - that a dead man should lie dead to rot into nothing, one of the first things proclaimed to man after his initiation into sin - was summarily overturned. As a result, Jesus identifies Himself entirely with God, displays His complete divinity, qualifies Himself to be man's judge and makes His victory the cornerstone of the Kingdom's eventual reality.

This framework helps me succinctly restate my great problems with ID:

It reduces providence to unintelligibility, by insisting that design is something identified only in only certain small precincts of life.

And it reduces miracle to curiosity, by insisting that design is something identified only by certain suspensions of arbitrarily chosen physical and mathematical principles.

In both aspects the revelation of God has been traded for the shadow of a Designer.
 
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Smidlee

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DNA is processed by cellular machinery to produce life.
"Snow-NA" is processed by a ski slope to produce avalanches.
The difference between producing life and producing an avalanches is the same as life and death itself. There are many ways of killing a person but create life itself is a lot more complex and so far beyond human understanding. Now when it comes to snowflakes man can easily produced them. Even if you can tell the difference between mad-made snow vs natural snow snowflake itself does not in any way contain a code/information.
DNA would be a useless as snowflakes if there were not a living cell to read it. So DNA itself is not special but the fact it contain code which is read but a complex living machine.
The same with a movie DVD vs a blank DVD. Both are worthless without a DVD player. It's the DVD player itself with reveals how special a movie-DVD is compared to a blank one.

P.S Now I could say I'm an evolutionist because I believe animals can change in time .Yet the letters/words "I'm an evolutionist" are just as useless as "I'm an rthetrsgidfhtysgghs" without a mind (English) to interpreted them. "I'm an evolutionist or creationist" itself is just symbols with no value by themselves, they are just a flag to let someone else to know where you stand on an issue. Because of this I don't go around claiming I'm an evolutionist even though I do agree with evolution on some points. I don't even claim to be a intelligent design theoist even though I agree with them more. I claim to be a creationist as this title is the closer to what I believe even though sometimes I disagree with other creationists.
 
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Papias

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smidlee wrote:
I'm an evolutionist even though I do agree with evolution on some points. I don't even claim to be a intelligent design theoist even though I agree with them more.

OK. Do you agree that nearly all scientists, including thousands of Christians, have agreed long ago that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming, and that this evidence from many different fields of study confirms evolution as a fact beyond a shadow of a doubt, and that there are no reasons to doubt evolution?

If not, perhaps you'd like to post on this thread (you may want to review it before posting) :

http://www.christianforums.com/t7420581/


Papias
 
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Smidlee

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I don't put a lot of faith in a consensus especially on a group very close to the subject. As lawyers will naturally stick up for other lawyers as cops will more likely for another cop, doctors for doctors, etc.
Most scientist will naturally stand up for global warming as this does bring in more cash into their field. It hard to bite the hand the feeds you. So for me consensus is pretty much worthless.
 
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Papias

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Smidlee, you are aware that in the cutthroat world of real science, providing strong evidence against a dominant theory is a great victory. A scientist who does so is almost certain to get professorships, awards, and will beat out rivals. Saying that a scientist will stick to the consensus if they have any scrap of evidence against it is like saying a homeless person will destroy a winning lottery ticket just to "stick up for" other homeless people.

But hey, I have to give you credit for not denying the scientific consensus.
 
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Mallon

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I don't put a lot of faith in a consensus especially on a group very close to the subject. As lawyers will naturally stick up for other lawyers as cops will more likely for another cop, doctors for doctors, etc.
Most scientist will naturally stand up for global warming as this does bring in more cash into their field. It hard to bite the hand the feeds you. So for me consensus is pretty much worthless.
Obviously spoken by someone who has never submitted a research paper to a scientific journal.
 
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lucaspa

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I am an intelligent design theorist. Are you?

No. And for all your sophistry, neither are you. :) ID isn't really about "design" when you look at it, it's about direct manufacture. The argument about codes is that an intelligent entity must manufacture a code. Not that a code is some disembodied "design", but that the machinery to take 3 bases in DNA and convert that to an amino acid in a protein must be manufactured. Some intelligent entity had to decide that AAA = lysine and then construct the tRNA molecules such that those with AAA would always bind a lysine.

One of the misconceptions about ID -- fostered by the IDers -- is that ID is about the existence of an intelligent entity vs the non-existence. But that isn't really what ID is about. ID says that there has to be manufacture of parts of the universe. There has to be a gap between members of the universe such that an intelligent entity must manufacture one of the members. In human terms, there is a gap between a piece of flint and a handaxe. A human must manufacture the hand axe -- shaping one side to fit in the hand and putting an edge on the other side. Just so, there is a supposed gap between DNA molecules and proteins such that the tRNAs specific for each amino acid had to be constructed.

Unfortunately for IDers, Darwinian selection (of which natural selection is a subset) is an algorithm to get design. Follow the steps and the end result is always design. No intelligence needed.

So, we have an unintelligent process that gives design. What's more, as you noted, some physical and chemical processes will also yield design. This is particularly true of chemistry, and life is chemistry. So there are chemical processes that will produce RNA molecules that can bind both an amino acid and attach to another RNA molecule (messenger RNA). Natural selection can then work to "design" the code: relating specific tRNA molecules to specific amino acids.

You're not an IDer, because you don't think God directly manufactured those parts of the universe.
 
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lucaspa

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Yeah, I find the evidence for evolution pretty compelling. But I'm equally convicted in my belief that it doesn't contradict the message found in the Bible.

It shouldn't. The messages in the Bible are theological messages. Science doesn't deal with those. What evolution tells you is how God created the diversity of species on the planet.

It really bolsters my view that God is overwhelmingly intelligent and likes math. A lot.

There is an old joke about evolution. At a dinner party someone asked J.B.S. Haldane what evolution said about God. Huxley replied: "God is inordinately fond of beetles." (because there are over 30,000 species of beetles)

So I would urge that you use caution about what you infer about God from evolution lest you end up having evolution erroneously counter some of those theological messages.
 
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