I am an atheist needing help understanding Christian theology relating to Satan.

[Zerotrousers]

Please read all of this before answering.

Hi. There are a few things I need help understanding. I tried asking at Yahoo Answers, but that place seems to be loaded with socially unstable 11 year olds, and so I decided to try here. This is my current understanding of things. Please feel free to correct me.

If you are going to be immature, flame me, or give me ambiguous or nonsensical answers, you might as well not bother.

1. God created all the angels, including lucifer.
2. Lucifer was originally good.
3. God can predict the future in perfect detail.
4. Lucifer disagreed with god on a few topics and as such wanted to take his place, and so god sent him to hell.
5. God could have prevented this because he is omnipotent, but chose not to.
6. God sends people to hell because they are evil, and must do so because evil cannot be in god's presence.
7. Lucifer is the cause of evil in the world (Hence the "Father of all lies" title, and the like)


The only way this all fits together is by God deliberately wanting there to be evil in the world, otherwise he would have stopped lucifer rebelling in the first place. Christians have repeatedly told me that God does not want to send people to hell, but he has to because he cannot be in the presence of evil.

Can somebody please explain this? Currently it does not make sense to me.


Thanks.

 

[ebia]

Please read all of this before answering.

Hi. There are a few things I need help understanding. I tried asking at Yahoo Answers, but that place seems to be loaded with socially unstable 11 year olds, and so I decided to try here. This is my current understanding of things. Please feel free to correct me.

If you are going to be immature, flame me, or give me ambiguous or nonsensical answers, you might as well not bother.

1. God created all the angels, including lucifer.
2. Lucifer was originally good.
3. God can predict the future in perfect detail.
4. Lucifer disagreed with god on a few topics and as such wanted to take his place, and so god sent him to hell.
5. God could have prevented this because he is omnipotent, but chose not to.
6. God sends people to hell because they are evil, and must do so because evil cannot be in god's presence.
7. Lucifer is the cause of evil in the world (Hence the "Father of all lies" title, and the like)


The only way this all fits together is by God deliberately wanting there to be evil in the world, otherwise he would have stopped lucifer rebelling in the first place. Christians have repeatedly told me that God does not want to send people to hell, but he has to because he cannot be in the presence of evil.

Can somebody please explain this? Currently it does not make sense to me.


Thanks.

Hmm. First you need to get rid of the name Lucifer which is a source of nothing but confusion and arises from some dubious latin translating.

The role of Satan changes as one goes through the bible. In most of the O.T. his role is as a literary character acting as an "accuser", which is what the name Satan means. In the N.T. he begins to become the personfication of the "principalities and powers", ie darkness and evil and the forces and tendencies that those names refer to. At no time does the bible equate the serpent in the garden with Satan.

Most of your 7 points are nothing more than dodgy tradition and dodgy specualtive filling in of the gaps.

The bible is, except for the first 12 chapters, the story of what God is doing about evil in the world. It actually doesn't give much attention to where that evil comes from originally (which is a purely academic question), nor much to the personification of that evil except as is useful in telling the story of what God is doing about it.

If one does insist that Satan is a single, identifiable, real being rather than a literary device then one does have a bit of a problem in lining up Satan as he appears in Job with Satan as he appears in Matthew, say.

 

[Zerotrousers]

Hmm. First you need to get rid of the name Lucifer which is a source of nothing but confusion and arises from some dubious latin translating.

The role of Satan changes as one goes through the bible. In most of the O.T. his role is as a literary character acting as an "accuser", which is what the name Satan means. In the N.T. he begins to become the personfication of the "principalities and powers", ie darkness and evil and the forces and tendencies that those names refer to. At no time does the bible equate the serpent in the garden with Satan.

Most of your 7 points are nothing more than dodgy tradition and dodgy specualtive filling in of the gaps.

The bible is, except for the first 12 chapters, the story of what God is doing about evil in the world. It actually doesn't give much attention to where that evil comes from originally (which is a purely academic question), nor much to the personification of that evil except as is useful in telling the story of what God is doing about it.

If one does insist that Satan is a single, identifiable, real being rather than a literary device then one does have a bit of a problem in lining up Satan as he appears in Job with Satan as he appears in Matthew, say.

Hi ebia,

I realise that Satan is a literary device (I am an Atheist, after all), but from my general understanding of Christianity, many of it's followers truly believe that he is a real being that resides in hell and has an active influence on the world.

My question is moreso directed to them.

All religions have mythology, some of it central to their beliefs, some of it not. As far as I'm aware, the idea of Satan, hell, and evil, is central to Christianity. I'm not deliberately looking for holes, I'm just asking questions in the same sense you would if you were studying Greek Myths at school.

Make no mistake, I am not trying to coerce myself into your beliefs by finding out more about it, nor am I debating in a futile attempt to prove your beliefs wrong. I am simply curious, and I like my understanding of things to make sense. If such is not the purpose of this site, please enlighten me and direct me elsewhere. Thanks.

P.S, if this sounded extremely pretentious, it's just how I write things, I swear.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hi, Zero --- nice to meet you ---

1. God created all the angels, including lucifer.
2. Lucifer was originally good.
3. God can predict the future in perfect detail.
4. Lucifer disagreed with god on a few topics and as such wanted to take his place, and so god sent him to hell.
5. God could have prevented this because he is omnipotent, but chose not to.
6. God sends people to hell because they are evil, and must do so because evil cannot be in god's presence.
7. Lucifer is the cause of evil in the world (Hence the "Father of all lies" title, and the like)

Here's my perspective:

1. Correct --- Colossians 1:16
2. Correct --- in fact, Lucifer was "perfect" --- Ezekiel 28:15
3. Correct --- Isaiah 46:9-10
4. Correct --- Isaiah 14:13-14 --- but God has not sent him to Hell as yet --- Satan fears Hell
5. Correct --- however, love cannot exist in a universe where there is no free will, and God is love
6a. Incorrect --- God sends people to Hell and the Lake of Fire because their names are not in the Lamb's Book of Life --- Revelation 20:15.
6b. Correct --- evil cannot be in God's presence
7. I don't know the theological position on this one --- I think you're right.

The only way this all fits together is by God deliberately wanting there to be evil in the world, otherwise he would have stopped lucifer rebelling in the first place.

This isn't correct --- had God stopped Lucifer --- someone else could have taken his place.

 

[drich0150]

7. Lucifer is the cause of evil in the world (Hence the "Father of all lies" title, and the like)

Sin, is anything not in the will of God.

Evil, is malicious intent to commit sin.

So sin, is a product of "Free will." Meaning anything not in the will of God, or "option B" (If option A is God's will) Just like the choice Adam Made to eat of the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Tree was option B. If there wasn't an option B then we could not truly have free will. The exercise of your will over that of God is where sin comes from. The evil one doesn't Make you sin, you/we do that on our own. Because, we are responsible for our own actions "Lucifer" isn't the cause of evil in this world we are, through the exercise of our own will over God's.

Now enter Jesus and his sacrifice. It is through the Blood of Jesus that we are able to maintain our own will, and choose to love God with it. Otherwise we would have to live our lives in the Will of God. Which is not what he wants. He only wants to be with those of us who want to be with him. This is the purpose of "Free will."

 

[Chesterton]

The only way this all fits together is by God deliberately wanting there to be evil in the world, otherwise he would have stopped lucifer rebelling in the first place.

No. Another way it all fits together is if God is Love. If He is love, and values love, then He must also allow free will, because without the freedom and capacity to not love, there's no capacity to love.

 

[ebia]

Hi ebia,

I realise that Satan is a literary device (I am an Atheist, after all), but from my general understanding of Christianity, many of it's followers truly believe that he is a real being that resides in hell and has an active influence on the world.

Many do, but not all. What I was trying to make clear is that they have a problem reconcilling the various roles Satan takes as one goes through the bible - the Satan of Job is a very different character to the Satan of Matthew. In the end most Christian's view of Satan has more to do with medieval tradition than the bible.

My question is moreso directed to them.

All religions have mythology, some of it central to their beliefs, some of it not. As far as I'm aware, the idea of Satan, hell, and evil, is central to Christianity.

The idea of evil is central to Christianity. Satan and hell are really quite peripheral. The bible is concerned with the damage evil causes and what God is doing about it, rather than where it comes from and what the alternative to God's kingdom is. The bible mentions Satan (in various roles) and does talk about the alternative to God's kingdom, but it doesn spend much time on either. Those Christians who do are grossly distorting the picture.

I'm not deliberately looking for holes, I'm just asking questions in the same sense you would if you were studying Greek Myths at school.

Yes, and I don't have a problem with that. But if you were to pick a minor character in (say) the Illiad and talk as though he were central to the book you would expect to be picked up on that.

Make no mistake, I am not trying to coerce myself into your beliefs by finding out more about it, nor am I debating in a futile attempt to prove your beliefs wrong. I am simply curious, and I like my understanding of things to make sense. If such is not the purpose of this site, please enlighten me and direct me elsewhere. Thanks.

P.S, if this sounded extremely pretentious, it's just how I write things, I swear.

All that's fine. All I'm trying to do is clarify the picture for you from my perspective.

 

[Zerotrousers]

Hi, Zero --- nice to meet you ---

Here's my perspective:

1. Correct --- Colossians 1:16
2. Correct --- in fact, Lucifer was "perfect" --- Ezekiel 28:15
3. Correct --- Isaiah 46:9-10
4. Correct --- Isaiah 14:13-14 --- but God has not sent him to Hell as yet --- Satan fears Hell
5. Correct --- however, love cannot exist in a universe where there is no free will, and God is love
6a. Incorrect --- God sends people to Hell and the Lake of Fire because their names are not in the Lamb's Book of Life --- Revelation 20:15.
6b. Correct --- evil cannot be in God's presence
7. I don't know the theological position on this one --- I think you're right.

This isn't correct --- had God stopped Lucifer --- someone else could have taken his place.

@ 6A: Now you're just nitpicking...


"No. Another way it all fits together is if God is Love. If He is love, and values love, then He must also allow free will, because without the freedom and capacity to not love, there's no capacity to love."

However, I don't fully see why having free will would be such a useful thing after all.

It states in Matthew 18:9: "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."

From this I get the general idea that Hell is not a place that one really wants to go. BUT, by giving humans free will, God is only giving us the choice between eternal life or eternal torture. As far as I'm aware, love doesn't involve eternal torture, and the alternative is exactly the same as if we didn't have free will in the first place. Out of love, we don't let a dog run into a road, and we don't let a child touch a stove. We're restricting their free will deliberately. Out of love, why doesn't god protect us from eternal hellfire, or why doesn't he just cut the whole hell thing out all together?


In short, God is giving us our free will, but warning us to use it only as he explicitly asks. Isn't that missing the whole point of free will altogether? The American constitution gives us freedom of speech not so we can be punished for arguing against the state, but so we CAN argue against the state.

I know for one that I would rather be living in heaven without free will than in hell with it.


@Ebia: In that case, it would help if you stopped trying to clarify things and actually answered my question.

 

[AV1611VET]

@ 6A: Now you're just nitpicking...

Am I?

Is that what you would say to a flight attendant if she wouldn't let you on the plane because you don't have a ticket?

"No. Another way it all fits together is if God is Love. If He is love, and values love, then He must also allow free will, because without the freedom and capacity to not love, there's no capacity to love."

I agree.

Out of love, we don't let a dog run into a road, and we don't let a child touch a stove.

Then why do dogs run out into the road and children get burned on the stove?

We're restricting their free will deliberately. Out of love, why doesn't god protect us from eternal hellfire, or why doesn't he just cut the whole hell thing out all together?

And what, let you spend eternity in Heaven with Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot?

In short, God is giving us our free will, but warning us to use it only as he explicitly asks. Isn't that missing the whole point of free will altogether?

No --- as I have said before, love cannot exist in a universe were there's no freewill. Any restrictions placed on us will take away from our capacity to love Him.

I know for one that I would rather be living in heaven without free will than in hell with it.

Then are you prepared to surrender your freewill if you get there?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

This is the old "Does God's omnipotence prevent free will?" question. It's a difficult one.

I think when we answer this question we presume that we have only 'destiny' (so to speak). Lucifer became evil, so our all-knowing God must have been able to see that.
But an act only becomes true once we preform it. Before this everything is just potential, and presumably an all-knowing God would be able to see every potential imaginable.

So basically God will not destroy something just because it has the potential to be bad. That potential is in everyone. Similarly he would not destroy someone who is already bad because he can always see the potential for repentance.

 

[drich0150]

As far as I'm aware, love doesn't involve eternal torture, and the alternative is exactly the same as if we didn't have free will in the first place.

The reason Hell is so torturous is because we are a product of creation. As such, we have a need to be reunited with our creator, and being banished from him makes hell torturous. It's kind of like a child's need to be loved and wanted by his parents, if you separated that child from his parents, with what he understands to be no chance of ever seeing them again, he would experience a small portion of what an eternal separation would be for us from our Heavenly Father.

Out of love, we don't let a dog run into a road, and we don't let a child touch a stove. We're restricting their free will deliberately. Out of love, why doesn't god protect us from eternal hellfire, or why doesn't he just cut the whole hell thing out all together?

He has "cut the whole hell thing out" for all who wish to have it out of their eternal destiny, If we so choose. If we do not wish to be with God then there is also a choice to be had.

Whether you perceive this choice as fair or not is not why it's there. God created all of the angels and just "included" everyone in heaven, just like you suggested, but even in full knowledge of who and what God was a large portion of them did not want to be there with him, They selfishly wanted complete autonomy, and yet to be in a position to benefit from all of what God had created. This was not an option for them to have. Nor is it one we can benefit from either. Because this is not what true love looks like. As a parent would you just let your kid "free range" live as he wanted to? Or would there be a standard for him to strive for? In God we have a perfect standard to live for.

We have this brief life To show ourselves to who we want to live for. Either we want to live to Love God or we will prove that we wish to love ourselves.

If we love God then we will spend eternity with him, we choose to love ourselves then we will spend eternity consumed with ourselves, and everything we have created or brought with us. Hell isn't hell because of what's in it, Hell is hell because of what's not there.

 

[ebia]

@Ebia: In that case, it would help if you stopped trying to clarify things and actually answered my question.

What part of your question haven't I answered?

(It's not always possible to give a simple answer to a simple question if the simple question appears to be premised on some invalid assumptions - eg that there is a consistant, biblically founded, Christian theology about Satan).

 

[Zerotrousers]

@ Ebia: I see your point. I was referring to the fact you were just attacking what I had said, rather than answering it.

Now here's some more questions: Does Satan actually exist, and if he does, which idea of him is the correct one?


@Drich:

We have this brief life To show ourselves to who we want to live for. Either we want to live to Love God or we will prove that we wish to love ourselves.

There are alternatives to those two. We can love other people, we can love nature, etc. There aren't just 2 options. There are plenty of kind, loving, philanthropic people in the world who don't believe in god.

He has "cut the whole hell thing out" for all who wish to have it out of their eternal destiny, If we so choose. If we do not wish to be with God then there is also a choice to be had.

Please explain, unless you are referring to the old "God does not send people to hell, they send themselves" saying. God created people, created hell, created the rules that decide whether they go to hell or not, and enforces those rules. Ergo, God sends people to hell.

If we love God then we will spend eternity with him, we choose to love ourselves then we will spend eternity consumed with ourselves, and everything we have created or brought with us. Hell isn't hell because of what's in it, Hell is hell because of what's not there.

Well, if being with god for all eternity is anything like church, I'm not going...

Nah, just kidding. But then how would you describe hell? Just a lot of nothingness? The World without God to help make things better?

Whether you perceive this choice as fair or not is not why it's there. God created all of the angels and just "included" everyone in heaven, just like you suggested, but even in full knowledge of who and what God was a large portion of them did not want to be there with him, They selfishly wanted complete autonomy, and yet to be in a position to benefit from all of what God had created. This was not an option for them to have. Nor is it one we can benefit from either. Because this is not what true love looks like. As a parent would you just let your kid "free range" live as he wanted to? Or would there be a standard for him to strive for? In God we have a perfect standard to live for.

A good parent gives his child standards, encourages them, but does not punish them if they are not met. Just like if a child falls in love with someone you don't like, you still let them go.

 

[ebia]

@ Ebia: I see your point. I was referring to the fact you were just attacking what I had said, rather than answering it.

Apologies if it came across that way, but that's not how it was intended.

Now here's some more questions: Does Satan actually exist, and if he does, which idea of him is the correct one?

I presume you mean "does Satan actually exist as a (single, potentially identifiable, person" - to which I would have to answer no, I don't think so. I would rather say that Satan the personification of a few different, very real but sub-personal, 'forces' (for lack of a better word).

One of my reasons for doing so would be that the picture of him changes so radically in different biblical texts.

 

[Zerotrousers]

Apologies if it came across that way, but that's not how it was intended.

Apology accepted. Let's get over the misunderstanding.

I presume you mean "does Satan actually exist as a (single, potentially identifiable, person" - to which I would have to answer no, I don't think so. I would rather say that Satan the personification of a few different, very real but sub-personal, 'forces' (for lack of a better word).

Define 'forces'. I.e, are they concious, or just natural?

 

[ebia]

Apology accepted. Let's get over the misunderstanding.[/quote
sure

Define 'forces'. I.e, are they concious,

I would prefer to leave that ambiguous but say sub-personal. They aren't persons in the same sense that God or humans are persons. I'm not sure we understand what it means to say someone/think is concious when we are talking about (say) dolphins, elephants or great apes; or potentially intelligent computer systems; let alone to try to apply it in this case.

or just natural?

I don't think I would want to use the word 'natural' but it depends what one means by the word. The problem with discussing this kind of stuff is that the categories we would like to use weren't designed for it.

 

[Jpark]

Please read all of this before answering.

Hi. There are a few things I need help understanding. I tried asking at Yahoo Answers, but that place seems to be loaded with socially unstable 11 year olds, and so I decided to try here. This is my current understanding of things. Please feel free to correct me.

If you are going to be immature, flame me, or give me ambiguous or nonsensical answers, you might as well not bother.

1. God created all the angels, including lucifer.
2. Lucifer was originally good.
3. God can predict the future in perfect detail.
4. Lucifer disagreed with god on a few topics and as such wanted to take his place, and so god sent him to hell.
5. God could have prevented this because he is omnipotent, but chose not to.
6. God sends people to hell because they are evil, and must do so because evil cannot be in god's presence.
7. Lucifer is the cause of evil in the world (Hence the "Father of all lies" title, and the like)


The only way this all fits together is by God deliberately wanting there to be evil in the world, otherwise he would have stopped lucifer rebelling in the first place. Christians have repeatedly told me that God does not want to send people to hell, but he has to because he cannot be in the presence of evil.

Can somebody please explain this? Currently it does not make sense to me.


Thanks.

Well, you need to realize that there is one socially unstable 16 year old on Christian Forums.

1. Genesis 2:1

2. Ezekiel 28:13

3. Revelation 19:10

4. Isaiah 14:12-14; Isaiah 14:15-20; Matthew 25:41

5. 1 Corinthians 2:7; Luke 10:18; 1 John 3:8

God had the plan of redemption in mind before the creation of the world, and it would have remained unknown had He not revealed it in Christ.

6. 1 John 1:5; Revelation 14:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:9

He who has recieved the mark of the beast shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb.

He who has not received salvation shall be tormented with fire and brimstone from the presence of the Lord.

7. Romans 5:12

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. (Romans 5:12)

Pride is the beginning of evil. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

The devil was a murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44)

The devil has sinned from the beginning. (1 John 3:8)

__________________

God hates evil. (Proverbs 6:16-19) The tree of knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden of Eden as a test. (Matthew 4; Luke 4)

Sin entered the world through Adam (Romans 5:12), but the devil has sinned from the beginning. (Genesis 3:15; 1 John 3:8)

God is Omnipresent. He is present in hell. (Revelation 14:10)

God had the plan of redemption in mind before the creation of the universe (1 Corinthians 2:7), for He knew the devil sinned. For this purpose, the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

 

[drich0150]

There are plenty of kind, loving, philanthropic people in the world who don't believe in god.

That's kinda the Idea. Loving God and "good works" don't have to have anything to do with each other.. The whole point to Heaven is having a place where you can spend an eternity with the God that you love with all of your heart, mind, spirit and strength.

The "good" we can do outside of God is really subjective to what popular culture deems as "good." This definition can change, and has over the years. What could have been labeled a philanthropic effort a few generations ago could be considered a human rights violation now.

This is one of the reasons that "good works" in of themselves has nothing to do with Salvation. (You can't earn your way into Heaven.)

Well, if being with god for all eternity is anything like church, I'm not going...

Nah, just kidding.But then how would you describe hell? Just a lot of nothingness? The World without God to help make things better?

What if some where in the past, the descriptions of Heaven and Hell were reversed?? What if Heaven was actually a fiery pit, and Hell is what most of us would describe paradise to be? The only difference being God lived in the fiery pit.. Would you still want to goto "Heaven?" (The fiery pit) Or would you want to goto paradise?

Heaven is Heaven because God is there, not because of what it looks like or how it can be described.. And transversely Hell is Hell because of what is not there (God and all of the rest of creation.)

True "Christians" Choose Heaven to be with God, not because they want to cash in on streets of Gold, and pearly gates. Nor escape what they perceive to be a terrible way to spend eternity.. It is this reason that we Have, and actively maintain a relationship with God. That means whatever heaven looks like, even if it were a eternal church service, then that's what we'd want, if for no other reason than we'd get to be with God.

If you do not have a relationship with God in this life, why do you think you would want one in the next one?
If "Lucifer" and all of the angels who followed him, Knew who, and what God was, and Knew what they faced, and stilled weren't content with all that they were given...
What make you think without a relationship with God, that heaven wouldn't be Hell for you, even if you were allowed in??
"Lucifer" obviously thought that risking actual literal Hell, for a chance at rebellion was better than being in a place with someone he did not love for an eternity... How how long before you get tired of singing the same songs? How long before you'd be ready to do your own thing?

Heaven is the choice for all who love and wish to be with God, and Hell is your other option. If you wish to love and serve yourself, then you can do that in Hell. Because simply put, Hell is the reality or emptiness of existence, without the benefit of anything found in creation... That includes God, and all he offers. In hell, you are with who you chose, in this life to spend eternity with.. Yourself, or if you'd perfer Not God/Jesus.

The devil and his angels don't rule hell, they are there, like you are there, and for the same reason. Because you all chose to be without God.. Hell or the "Void" is the only place you can do that.

Just like if a child falls in love with someone you don't like, you still let them go.

So does God. If you "fall in love with another gospel or doctrine" that doesn't include Jesus, then you are free to live out your life with this decision, and after this life is over then you get to live out the next one as well.. Because how could a truly righteous God Drag someone kicking and screaming into heaven to be with him, if that person spent there whole life putting distance between themselves and God?

 

[Zerotrousers]

That's kinda the Idea. Loving God and "good works" don't have to have anything to do with each other.. The whole point to Heaven is having a place where you can spend an eternity with the God that you love with all of your heart, mind, spirit and strength.

The "good" we can do outside of God is really subjective to what popular culture deems as "good." This definition can change, and has over the years. What could have been labeled a philanthropic effort a few generations ago could be considered a human rights violation now.

This is one of the reasons that "good works" in of themselves has nothing to do with Salvation. (You can't earn your way into Heaven.)



What if some where in the past, the descriptions of Heaven and Hell were reversed?? What if Heaven was actually a fiery pit, and Hell is what most of us would describe paradise to be? The only difference being God lived in the fiery pit.. Would you still want to goto "Heaven?" (The fiery pit) Or would you want to goto paradise?

Heaven is Heaven because God is there, not because of what it looks like or how it can be described.. And transversely Hell is Hell because of what is not there (God and all of the rest of creation.)

True "Christians" Choose Heaven to be with God, not because they want to cash in on streets of Gold, and pearly gates. Nor escape what they perceive to be a terrible way to spend eternity.. It is this reason that we Have, and actively maintain a relationship with God. That means whatever heaven looks like, even if it were a eternal church service, then that's what we'd want, if for no other reason than we'd get to be with God.

If you do not have a relationship with God in this life, why do you think you would want one in the next one?
If "Lucifer" and all of the angels who followed him, Knew who, and what God was, and Knew what they faced, and stilled weren't content with all that they were given...
What make you think without a relationship with God, that heaven wouldn't be Hell for you, even if you were allowed in??
"Lucifer" obviously thought that risking actual literal Hell, for a chance at rebellion was better than being in a place with someone he did not love for an eternity... How how long before you get tired of singing the same songs? How long before you'd be ready to do your own thing?

Heaven is the choice for all who love and wish to be with God, and Hell is your other option. If you wish to love and serve yourself, then you can do that in Hell. Because simply put, Hell is the reality or emptiness of existence, without the benefit of anything found in creation... That includes God, and all he offers. In hell, you are with who you chose, in this life to spend eternity with.. Yourself, or if you'd perfer Not God/Jesus.

The devil and his angels don't rule hell, they are there, like you are there, and for the same reason. Because you all chose to be without God.. Hell or the "Void" is the only place you can do that.



So does God. If you "fall in love with another gospel or doctrine" that doesn't include Jesus, then you are free to live out your life with this decision, and after this life is over then you get to live out the next one as well.. Because how could a truly righteous God Drag someone kicking and screaming into heaven to be with him, if that person spent there whole life putting distance between themselves and God?

This has... made everything about 'heaven' and 'hell' so much clearer to me. I'm assuming this is general christian opinion, rather than your own ideas, but it has certainly cleared up a lot of the preconceptions I've had since childhood (I went to a Catholic school).


When you say hell is seperation from God and the rest of his Creation, what does the 'rest of his creation' imply?

And, if someone sins during their lifetime, but still wants to be with god in the afterlife, is that allowed, or does god decide anyway?

 

[Zerotrousers]

BTW drich, you spelt 'manor' in your sig wrong.

In that context, it is spelt 'Manner'

A manor is a large house.