I am amazed at the simplicity...

Archie the Preacher

Apostle to the Intellectual Skeptics
Apr 11, 2003
3,171
1,011
Hastings, Nebraska - the Heartland!
Visit site
✟38,822.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Acts 15 recounts the issue of Gentiles being accepted as Christians. One should read the entire chapter and probably the chapter or two preceding to get the full flavor of the issue.

In Acts 15:22 to 29, Luke (presumably) recorded the instructions given by the 'council'. (The 'council' was comprised, according to Acts 15:6, of the "... apostles and the elders ..." - without further details.) Those instructions quoted were "...telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood."

That's it. Four guidelines for Gentiles (not ethnic Jews) who became Christ followers.

Reading the passage, one notes the council meeting was held and the instructions were issued resulting from ethnic Jewish believers who felt only Jews could become Christians. It should be clear this is not so.

By the way, the 'Judaizers' still exist to this day, seeking to add any number of 'works' to faith in God through Jesus Christ.
 

Travis93

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2016
626
230
30
Lilesville NC
✟24,441.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
Those four were just the starting rules so the gentiles could fellowship with the jews without totally offending them with their pagan eating practices, they were to learn the rest over time.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If those were literally all gentiles would ever have to follow, it must be fine for them to steal, dishonor their parents, lie, and do other acts of rebellion against the law of God. In fact, all of Paul's letters to the gentiles of Rome, Corinth, Galatia, etc are just heaping unnecessary burdens by adding to the four laws. See Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, and Ephesians 5:3-6 for laws besides the four that are mandatory to inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Archie the Preacher

Apostle to the Intellectual Skeptics
Apr 11, 2003
3,171
1,011
Hastings, Nebraska - the Heartland!
Visit site
✟38,822.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Those four were just the starting rules so the gentiles could fellowship with the jews without totally offending them, they were to learn the rest over time.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
No, they were NOT the 'starting rules'. Those were the only instructions ever made - other than the teaching of Paul and probably a couple others - on the subject.

Yes, Moses had been read in every Jewish synagogue every sabbath - in compliance with the Mosaic law and Jewish practice. No one - NO ONE - had to convert to Judaism prior to becoming a Christian. ANY attempts to insert more restriction and rules on Christian believers is extra-scriptural and an affront to the Saving Grace of Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Travis93

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2016
626
230
30
Lilesville NC
✟24,441.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
You might as well start now, in the kingdom to come you will be keeping Torah. Zechariah 14:16 shows that all nations will keep the feast of tabernacles, and Isaiah 66:23 and Ezekiel 46:3 shows the rest of the feast days being kept. Isaiah 2:2-3 and Micah 4:1-2 show that all nations will go to Jerusalem to learn Torah. Isaiah 66:15-17 shows God will punish people who break the food laws, specifically mentioning eating pig. Ezekiel 40-Ezekiel 48 details a third temple that has yet to be built, so it's still a future event, complete will animal sacrifices for sin. Circumcision will be mandatory for all gentiles to worship God in his sanctuary according to Ezekiel 44:9.

If the law has no meaning for gentile believers then Paul was lying here
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All scripture can't be profitable for these things if two third of it doesn't apply to most believers, even more-so for the people who say Jesus's commands in the gospels are just for Jews as well. If only Paul's letters are for us, less than 10% of scripture is profitable for us.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's it. Four guidelines for Gentiles (not ethnic Jews) who became Christ followers.
Very true. But we should take it a step further. Those guidelines would apply to everyone within the Body of Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free, since the Old Covenant was destined to become obsolete as noted in the book of Hebrews.
 
Upvote 0

Travis93

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2016
626
230
30
Lilesville NC
✟24,441.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
Very true. But we should take it a step further. Those guidelines would apply to everyone within the Body of Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free, since the Old Covenant was destined to become obsolete as noted in the book of Hebrews.

1 Chronicles 16:15 Be ye always mindful of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;

Has it been 1000 generations since the law was given? I count around 50 in Jesus's genealogy since then (Luke 3:23-33). Besides, Deuteronomy 13:1-5 says anyone who leads you away from the law of Moses is a false prophet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1John2:4
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
1 Chronicles 16:15 Be ye always mindful of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;

Has it been 1000 generations since the law was given? I count around 50 in Jesus's genealogy since then (Luke 3:23-33).
It does not matter. Israel failed miserably in being mindful of the Old Covenant, and Peter made it quite clear when he said this (Acts 15:10):
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Did you notice the last clause? What Peter said in essence is that Israel failed miserably. And now that the New Covenant is in force, those who revert to Moses also fail miserably.
 
Upvote 0

Travis93

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2016
626
230
30
Lilesville NC
✟24,441.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
It does not matter. Israel failed miserably in being mindful of the Old Covenant, and Peter made it quite clear when he said this (Acts 15:10):
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Did you notice the last clause? What Peter said in essence is that Israel failed miserably. And now that the New Covenant is in force, those who revert to Moses also fail miserably.

God doesn't care how bad they failed at it, he won't change it.
Psalms 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
Psalms 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
Psalms 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Psalms 89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

In the future God will give people a new heart and cause them to follow in his holy law.
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is why there will be no more sickness or pain in the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:4), God promised he would do that if people obey him (Exodus 23:25).
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
I'm not understanding you last statement, I don't think I've ever met a Christian that didn't know of our spiritual state in the new earth...
Most Christians have no idea of their own or others spiritual state TODAY, let alone in the new earth.
(THis first quote was from another thread, 'happened' to be in the buffer for quotes, and applies.)
Those four were just the starting rules
Actually yes, but not the first ones 'starting', since the Torah was read every Sabbath, and any gentile who the Jews considered 'righteous' or who Yhwh ever said was 'righteous' honored Torah; though there were some gentiles who may never before have attended a reading of Torah, some or many did.
There were rules /instructions from Torah for living right that gentiles were aware of,
and never questioned that that's what they were. Even UNgodly gentiles(who were the great majority) may well have known much or something about the Jews and Torah.

Besides, Deuteronomy 13:1-5 says anyone who leads you away from the law of Moses is a false prophet.
This is still true. (As Jesus says)

those who revert to Moses also fail miserably.
That depends on how they 'reverted to',
since most people in the world TODAY
would be doing WONDERFULLY if they followed Moses(who leads to Jesus) (it would not be revert to , but a giant step forward for most nations).
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟285,222.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Acts 15 recounts the issue of Gentiles being accepted as Christians. One should read the entire chapter and probably the chapter or two preceding to get the full flavor of the issue.

In Acts 15:22 to 29, Luke (presumably) recorded the instructions given by the 'council'. (The 'council' was comprised, according to Acts 15:6, of the "... apostles and the elders ..." - without further details.) Those instructions quoted were "...telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood."

That's it. Four guidelines for Gentiles (not ethnic Jews) who became Christ followers.

Reading the passage, one notes the council meeting was held and the instructions were issued resulting from ethnic Jewish believers who felt only Jews could become Christians. It should be clear this is not so.

There are 1,050 commands in the NT, so if Gentiles are required to follow only those four laws, then that would exclude over 99% of the commands in the NT, many of of which are clearly given to Gentiles, and also exclude the commands of Messiah. The truth is that Acts 15 had nothing to do with whether Gentiles should obey God's commands, but rather the topic in Acts 15:1 is whether Gentiles should be required to keep the man-made customs of Moses in order to be saved. God's law does not require all Gentiles everywhere to become circumcised and it does not require anyone to become circumcised in order to become saved. So by rejecting this man-made requirement, the Jerusalem Council was upholding God's law. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so if the Jerusalem Council had tried to subtract all but four of God's laws, then they would have been sinning. Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy 13:4-6, the way to tell that someone is a false messenger of God is if they teach God's people against following His commands, so if you believe that the Jerusalem Council did that, then you should consider them to be false prophets and you should obey God instead. We must obey God rather than man and the Jerusalem Council was no authority to countermand God or to tell anyone not to obey any His commands.

In regard to the second half of Acts 15, to use an analogy, when an employer hires a new employee they don't want to overburden them by requiring them to memorize everything that they will ever need to know about how to do their job up front, but rather they start with the basics with the understanding that they would learn how to do the rest on the job. In the same way, the Jerusalem Council did want to make things to difficult for new Gentile believers coming to faith, so they started them off with just the basics, which they excused by saying that Gentiles would continue to learn how to do the rest from hearing Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues, which at the very least implies that they were already keeping the Sabbath in obedience to God's commands.

By the way, the 'Judaizers' still exist to this day, seeking to add any number of 'works' to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

"Judaizers" was a term first coined and used by the heretic Marcion. It did not refer to those who were trying to get Gentiles to obey God's law, nor did Paul mean that when he used the word, but rather means "to adopt Jewish customs and rights, one who observes the ritual law of the Jews". It has to with someone who was trying to make Gentiles live as a Jew and become a Jew, and having him keep all of the customs of the Jewish people. They wanted the perspective person to live exactly as they do, keeping God's law in the same manner as they do in order to be saved. It has nothing to do with God's law except for the fact that Jewish customs were bound up in decisions made about God's law, also known as their yoke of the Torah.

Do you consider the four laws mentioned in Acts 15:19-21 to be adding a number of works to faith in God through Jesus Christ? If not, then I don't consider the other laws to be doing that for likely a similar reason.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Travis93
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,624
2,214
88
Union County, TN
✟665,418.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God doesn't care how bad they failed at it, he won't change it.
Psalms 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
Psalms 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
Psalms 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Psalms 89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

In the future God will give people a new heart and cause them to follow in his holy law.
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is why there will be no more sickness or pain in the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:4), God promised he would do that if people obey him (Exodus 23:25).
Travis, a covenant is between two parties. What happens when one party does not live up to the covenant?
 
Upvote 0

Travis93

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2016
626
230
30
Lilesville NC
✟24,441.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
Travis, a covenant is between two parties. What happens when one party does not live up to the covenant?
According to God they are to repent if they don't live up to it.
Leviticus 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Leviticus 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Leviticus 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

You are using man's idea of a covenant, that it ends if one side fails. God's covenants are forever, as shown in Psalms 89:30-35 God will not change it just because people fail at it. God says despite his name being profaned because of their disobedience (Ezekiel 36:20-21) he will still remember them for his name's sake (Ezekiel 36:22). He will regather them, put his laws on their heart to follow them, and settle them in their land forever (Ezekiel 36:24-28).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Acts 15 recounts the issue of Gentiles being accepted as Christians. One should read the entire chapter and probably the chapter or two preceding to get the full flavor of the issue.

In Acts 15:22 to 29, Luke (presumably) recorded the instructions given by the 'council'. (The 'council' was comprised, according to Acts 15:6, of the "... apostles and the elders ..." - without further details.) Those instructions quoted were "...telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood."

That's it. Four guidelines for Gentiles (not ethnic Jews) who became Christ followers.

Reading the passage, one notes the council meeting was held and the instructions were issued resulting from ethnic Jewish believers who felt only Jews could become Christians. It should be clear this is not so.

By the way, the 'Judaizers' still exist to this day, seeking to add any number of 'works' to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

Have you considered the distinction between the ceremonial law and moral law?
 
Upvote 0

Travis93

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2016
626
230
30
Lilesville NC
✟24,441.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
Have you considered the distinction between the ceremonial law and moral law?
There is no such distinction. God lumps in laws related to people and laws relating to himself together.
Leviticus 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.

Every law is a moral law. Each one tells us how to love God, or how to love others. That's why Jesus said all the law and the prophets hang on the two greatest commandments in Matthew 22:40. Jesus considered the law as a whole, he rebuked the Pharisees for keeping the so called ceremonial laws without the moral laws, but said they should do both (Matthew 23:23).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soyeong
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,624
2,214
88
Union County, TN
✟665,418.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
According to God they are to repent if they don't live up to it.
Leviticus 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Leviticus 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Leviticus 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

You are using man's idea of a covenant, that it ends if one side fails. God's covenants are forever, as shown in Psalms 89:30-35 God will not change it just because people fail at it. God says despite his name being profaned because of their disobedience (Ezekiel 36:20-21) he will still remember them for his name's sake (Ezekiel 36:22). He will regather them, put his laws on their heart to follow them, and settle them in their land forever (Ezekiel 36:24-28).
No Travis, you are either skirting the issue or have not studied the simple law governing covenants. When a party breaks a covenant with another the covenant ceases to be enforce. You are correct in quoting that God would not break His covenant with Israel. The problem is that Israel broke the covenant causing it not to be enforce.

When a lessee signs a lease with leaser and then the lessee continuously breaks the lease, the leaser has to finally allow the lessee to get out of the lease. The leaser didn't break the lease did He?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,624
2,214
88
Union County, TN
✟665,418.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is no such distinction. God lumps in laws related to people and laws relating to himself together.
Leviticus 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.

Every law is a moral law. Each one tells us how to love God, or how to love others. That's why Jesus said all the law and the prophets hang on the two greatest commandments in Matthew 22:40. Jesus considered the law as a whole, he rebuked the Pharisees for keeping the so called ceremonial laws without the moral laws, but said they should do both (Matthew 23:23).
Every law was moral as in not being immoral. Not every law concerned morality.
 
Upvote 0

Travis93

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2016
626
230
30
Lilesville NC
✟24,441.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
Every law was moral as in not being immoral. Not every law concerned morality.
God defines morality in his holy law. It's immoral to sin against your creator even if it doesn't hurt another person. Picking and choosing which laws concern morality is saying man has the right to choose what is right and wrong for himself.
 
Upvote 0

Travis93

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2016
626
230
30
Lilesville NC
✟24,441.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Celibate
No Travis, you are either skirting the issue or have not studied the simple law governing covenants. When a party breaks a covenant with another the covenant ceases to be enforce. You are correct in quoting that God would not break His covenant with Israel. The problem is that Israel broke the covenant causing it not to be enforce.

When a lessee signs a lease with leaser and then the lessee continuously breaks the lease, the leaser has to finally allow the lessee to get out of the lease. The leaser didn't break the lease did He?
You are ignoring clear verses that show God knows people will break the covenant but he will keep it going regardless. Deuteronomy 28:15-68 details how God will punish them for it, yet he promises if they repent he will take them back in Deuteronomy 30. God does not tell them that the covenant will cease, rather that it will always be there if they will just repent. There's a third temple on the way (Ezekiel 40-Ezekiel 48) and no amount of people claiming the covenant is over will stop it. The whole world will keep the feasts (Zechariah 14:16) and come to learn the law (Isaiah 2:2-3, Micah 4:1-2) in the future.
 
Upvote 0

Dkh587

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2014
3,049
1,770
Southeast
✟574,907.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Acts 15 deals with 2 issues: the claim that you can't be saved unless you are circumcised, and the claim that Gentiles need to keep the commandments

The yoke Peter is referring to works-based salvation. He was saying that Gentiles were saved in the same way the Israelites are saved: through belief in the Messiah

““Now then, why do you try Elohim by putting a yoke on the neck of the taught ones which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? “But through the favour of the Master יהושע Messiah we trust to be saved, in the same way as they.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:10-11‬ ‭ISR98‬‬

Obeying YAH is not "trying" him. Moses told the Israelites that obeying the commandments, is doing what is right in the eyes of YAH

““Diligently guard the commands of YAH your Elohim, and His witnesses, and His laws which He has commanded you. And you shall do what is right and good in the eyes of YAH, that it might be well with you, and you shall go in and possess the good land of which YAH swore to your fathers,”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭6:17-18‬ ‭ISR98‬‬

The commandments are not a yoke that nobody can bare. In fact, Moses said they weren't too hard to do

““For this command which I am commanding you today, it is not too hard for you, nor is it far off.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:11‬ ‭ISR98‬

If the commandments are a yoke that nobody can keep, then why would he(and Paul, too!) still be keeping the commandments after the Messiah ascended into heaven?

Once Peter addressed this, then Ya'acob stood up and spoke, and addressed the claim of the Gentiles needing to obey the commandments

The Gentiles came to the synagogues and assemblies every Shabbat to learn about the scriptures. They would naturally learn the commandments as they went back each Shabbat. Keep in mind, they didn't have bibles like we do. They had to go to an assembly or a synagogue to hear the scriptures. Ya'acob knew this, which is why he gave the Gentiles a few commandments to start with. He knew that they would hear the Torah every time they would gather on Shabbat, and learn them just like the Israelites would.

““Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the gentiles who are turning to Elohim, but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of idols, and from whoring, and from what is strangled, and from blood. “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:19-21‬ ‭ISR98‬‬
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,634
✟80,400.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Acts 15 recounts the issue of Gentiles being accepted as Christians. One should read the entire chapter and probably the chapter or two preceding to get the full flavor of the issue.

In Acts 15:22 to 29, Luke (presumably) recorded the instructions given by the 'council'. (The 'council' was comprised, according to Acts 15:6, of the "... apostles and the elders ..." - without further details.) Those instructions quoted were "...telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood."

That's it. Four guidelines for Gentiles (not ethnic Jews) who became Christ followers.

Reading the passage, one notes the council meeting was held and the instructions were issued resulting from ethnic Jewish believers who felt only Jews could become Christians. It should be clear this is not so.

By the way, the 'Judaizers' still exist to this day, seeking to add any number of 'works' to faith in God through Jesus Christ.
Welcome to this section of the forum.

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0