Hyterectomies and Vasectomies..moral or ethical?

[mpok1519]

theyre both fine.

And people who think they aren't okay generally have no good reasons; other than, well, "baby jesus cries when men have vasectomies" or something along those lines....

But many hard-core fundamentalists would insist that, even if a woman has a seriously infected uterus, its within her best "christian" interests to just live through the pain and possibly death.

What about hair cuts? It fits in the exact same way. Shaving too; take apart of your body, and discard or alter it. If every part of your body is holy, sacred and a temple for God, then by the same token doing any alterations to yourself is against His word.

however, most people are smarter than that.

If you want to get snipped because you don't want children, or don't want anymore, why would it be God's choice, and not yours, sacraficing all concepts of autonomous free-will?

 

[chingchang]

You are mistaken. Onan's sin was not that he was spilling his seed, but that he was disobeying god's command to impregnate the wife of his dead brother. Pulling out just happened to be his preferred method.

Again the Atheist knows more about our Bible than Christians here do....sad...but cool at the same time.

Hugs,
CC

 

[CreedIsChrist]

You are mistaken. Onan's sin was not that he was spilling his seed, but that he was disobeying god's command to impregnate the wife of his dead brother. Pulling out just happened to be his preferred method.

and coitus interruptus was a tool to disobey that command, just as birth control is a tool to disobey God's command. Your trying to separate his actions from his disobedience. Read the definition of onanism. While all sin comes from disobedience from God, it doesn't end there, as the 10 commandments shows us.


St. Jerome -

But I wonder why he the heretic Jovinianus set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?
​

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":

Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted
​

To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature'
​

 

[The Nihilist]

and coitus interruptus was a tool to disobey that command, just as birth control is a tool to disobey God's command. Your trying to separate his actions from his disobedience. Read the definition of onanism. While all sin comes from disobedience from God, it doesn't end there, as the 10 commandments shows us.


St. Jerome -

But I wonder why he the heretic Jovinianus set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?
​

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":

Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted
​

To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature'
​

Pfff, you might as well say that owning a knife is tantamount to murder.
Moreover, I've never found the catholic church's position on the matter convincing. Onan's sin was pretty specific, and I know of no place in scripture in which sex within the confines of a marriage for reasons other than procreation is condemned. Doesn't Paul say that a man is better off unmarried, but if he cannot contain himself, he should take a wife? Sounds to me like Paul has no problem at all with maritals.
Do injury to nature? What does that even mean in this context?

 

[mpok1519]

i think people confuse the word obedience, with, well, aot of other stuff that has nothing to do with obedience.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Pfff, you might as well say that owning a knife is tantamount to murder.
Moreover, I've never found the catholic church's position on the matter convincing. ?

I'm sure they don't find yours either

Onan's sin was pretty specific, and I know of no place in scripture in which sex within the confines of a marriage for reasons other than procreation is condemned. Doesn't Paul say that a man is better off unmarried, but if he cannot contain himself, he should take a wife? Sounds to me like Paul has no problem at all with maritals.
Do injury to nature? What does that even mean in this context

It sounds like your trying to add words to what Paul is saying. All Paul is saying is it is better to be married than to burn with passion in people who are more willed to be married. Also all sex involves a chance of impregnation, you could take all the pills you want, but there is still a chance(unless of course you have irreversible surgery). During Paul's time he wasn't around what exists today, but for some reason I think it would be frowned upon. If it wasn' frowned upon then the early church fathers would have never said such things, so obviously it was a teaching. I had read somewhere that around 30-40% of all women who goto abortion clinics are already on birth control.

He talks about injury to nature because artificial sterilization and BC is a suppressing and cutting off of the persons God-given natural reproduction. That is why it is a sin, because you are trying to inhibit what God gave you for the sake of carnal pleasure, hence you put pleasure above God's plan which is a form of idolism.

If you want to get snipped because you don't want children, or don't want anymore, why would it be God's choice, and not yours, sacrificing all concepts of autonomous free-will?

Study the nature of sin and you will know that sin stems from the abuse of free-will. Also it is your choice, thats why he did give you free will, doesn't mean its morally right though.

 

[mpok1519]

sounds like God could care less if you died from an infection only a hysterectomy could solve.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

sounds like God could care less if you died from an infection only a hysterectomy could solve.

hysterectomy is not used as a form of sterilization. One of its unfortunate side effects is sterilization but that was not the intent of the patient. For sin to exist there needs to be an intent/object relation.

 

[mpok1519]

some women get hysterectomies in order to prevent infection before they get one.

Its sinful to become sterile by choice? lol

ooookay lol ol lol lol

Christianity gets more and more insane as the day goes by lemmie tell you.

Soon people will be commiting suicide and killing children for...oh wait....

 

[The Nihilist]

It sounds like your trying to add words to what Paul is saying. All Paul is saying is it is better to be married than to burn with passion in people who are more willed to be married. Also all sex involves a chance of impregnation, you could take all the pills you want, but there is still a chance(unless of course you have irreversible surgery). During Paul's time he wasn't around what exists today, but for some reason I think it would be frowned upon. If it wasn' frowned upon then the early church fathers would have never said such things, so obviously it was a teaching. I had read somewhere that around 30-40% of all women who goto abortion clinics are already on birth control.

He talks about injury to nature because artificial sterilization and BC is a suppressing and cutting off of the persons God-given natural reproduction. That is why it is a sin, because you are trying to inhibit what God gave you for the sake of carnal pleasure, hence you put pleasure above God's plan which is a form of idolism.

Is your argument that Paul didn't talk about contraception, but these other guys did, so obviously it's what God thinks? Because that argument could use some work.
If god gave us natural reproduction, then he also gave us the means of sterilization. This is why arguments that presume to know god's plan are also terrible.

 

[chingchang]

and coitus interruptus was a tool to disobey that command, just as birth control is a tool to disobey God's command. Your trying to separate his actions from his disobedience. Read the definition of onanism. While all sin comes from disobedience from God, it doesn't end there, as the 10 commandments shows us.


St. Jerome -

But I wonder why he the heretic Jovinianus set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?
​

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":

Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted
​

To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature'
​

Your exegesis (and that of Jerome and others) is bad. The disobedience has only to do with Onan's obligation to Tamar. Do you think David spilled his seed in his sexual escapades with his concubines and slaves? Or...do you think he intended to get them all pregnant? David wasn't obligated to get them pregnant. How about Sampson with the prostitute? It isn't a sin to spill seed. If that is the case...then masturbation is a sin...and don't you think if that was the case God would have been VERY specific about it...especially given the prevelance of it? Leviticus 18 would have been a good spot to list it...no?

There is nothing wrong with using birth control methods...unless you add to scripture...then you can make anything a sin. Frankly...there is more convincing scripture that consuming alcohol is a sin than there is that spilling seed is a sin...and consuming alcohol isn't a sin either!

CC

 

[CreedIsChrist]

some women get hysterectomies in order to prevent infection before they get one.

Soon people will be committing suicide and killing children for

Wow, this has got to be one of the worst statements I've read in a long time. Women don't get hysterectomies to prevent infection! An MD would laugh in your face if you said such a thing. Women don't get hysterectomies to sterilize themselves either. Please read a medical book! Getting a hysterectomy to sterilize yourself would be akin to chopping off your arm to remove a pimple. lol

Hysterectomies are also considered a last form of treatment considering its invasive procedure. It is used mostly for tumors, cysts, fibrosis, treatment resistant bleeding, and endrometreosis.

As far as infection the standard treatment is antibiotics(you know what those are right?) or drainage(lancing).

People are already killing children, there is a thing called abortion, whom 50 million have already been killed.

There is nothing wrong with using birth control methods...unless you add to scripture...then you can make anything a sin. Frankly...there is more convincing scripture that consuming alcohol is a sin than there is that spilling seed is a sin...and consuming alcohol isn't a sin either!

Thats nice, around 2000 years of Christianity disagrees with you

Do you think David spilled his seed in his sexual escapades with his concubines and slaves? Or...do you think he intended to get them all pregnant? David wasn't obligated to get them pregnant. How about Sampson with the prostitute?

News flash : the OT major and minor prophets weren't sinless.

 

[mpok1519]

correction; fetuses arent children.

But, the next point is, the crazy right wing fundamentalist agenda will try and tell you all kinds of ridiculous things. Like, condoms are bad.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Wow, this has got to be one of the worst statements I've read in a long time. Women don't get hysterectomies to prevent infection! An MD would laugh in your face if you said such a thing. Women don't get hysterectomies to sterilize themselves either. Please read a medical book! Getting a hysterectomy to sterilize yourself would be akin to chopping off your arm to remove a pimple. lol

Wrong answer. Try again. I know of several women who had partial hysterectomies in their 30s so they wouldn't have more children. They didn't want to deal with periods since they didn't want more kids. There were health issues, but nothing that needed a hysterectomy. But it does happen and it's not akin to chopping your arm off to get rid of a pimple.

Hysterectomies are also considered a last form of treatment considering its invasive procedure. It is used mostly for tumors, cysts, fibrosis, treatment resistant bleeding, and endrometreosis.

This is true, but only half the story.

As far as infection the standard treatment is antibiotics(you know what those are right?) or drainage(lancing).

Depends on the type of infection. Are you an OB/GYN? I sure hope not.

People are already killing children, there is a thing called abortion, whom 50 million have already been killed.

The point was lost on you, I guess, that people have done ridiculous things in the name of Christianity. This tu quoque argument falls short here.

Thats nice, around 2000 years of Christianity disagrees with you

No, a brand of Christianity disagrees with him. I'm a Christian, too, and I don't disagree with him, depending on the situation.

News flash : the OT major and minor prophets weren't sinless.

What does that have to do with anything? The point is being made that Onan's sin was disobedience. It doesn't matter that he spilled his seed to do it...he could've taken some form of herb that would kill his sperm and the outcome would've been the same. The sin was that he failed to do what God commanded of him.

 

[Archer93]

News flash : the OT major and minor prophets weren't sinless.

IIRC, it was explicitly stated that the only thing David did that God didn't approve of was killing Uriah in order to marry Bathsheba.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Wrong answer. Try again. I know of several women who had partial hysterectomies in their 30s so they wouldn't have more children. They didn't want to deal with periods since they didn't want more kids. There were health issues, but nothing that needed a hysterectomy. But it does happen and it's not akin to chopping your arm off to get rid of a pimple

My uncle is a doctor and well as my grandfather. My mother is a nurse. All 3 said that no doctor would give a hysterectomy just for the simple fact to sterilize somebody. Most doctors will not give hysterectomies unless there are serious conditions like cancer, fibrosis, severe bleeding, and endrometrosis.

This is true, but only half the story.

There are 6 major conditions that would call for the option of a hysterectomy. Sterilization(and neither infection, and I seriously wonder why mpok would write such dangerous medical advice) is not listed in that list, or any of the major medical books






Hysterectomy is used to treat:

• Fibroids. More hysterectomies are done because of fibroids than any other problem of the uterus. For many women with fibroids, symptoms are minimal and require no treatment. Also, the fibroids often shrink after menopause. But fibroids can cause heavy bleeding or pain in some women.
• Endometriosis. This happens when the tissue lining the inside of your uterus grows outside the uterus on your ovaries, fallopian tubes, or other pelvic or abdominal organs. When medication and surgery do not cure endometriosis, a hysterectomy often is performed.
• Uterine prolapse. This is when the uterus moves from its usual place down into the vagina. This can lead to urinary problems, pelvic pressure, or difficulty with bowel movements.
• Cancer. If you have cancer of the uterus, cervix, or ovary a hysterectomy may be part of the treatment your doctor recommends.
• Persistent vaginal bleeding. If your periods are heavy, not regular, or last for many days each cycle and nonsurgical methods have not helped to control bleeding, a hysterectomy may bring relief.
• Chronic pelvic pain. Surgery is a last resort for women who have chronic pelvic pain that clearly comes from the uterus. However, many forms of pelvic pain aren't cured by a hysterectomy, and so this approach can be a permanent mistake.

Depends on the type of infection. Are you an OB/GYN? I sure hope not.

And I hope you aren't either. Doctors give antibiotics for nearly all forms of infection, unless its a local one like an abbess where only drainage is only needed. If antibiotics don't work you will get something called septicemia or rheumatic fever(or luck out where your body is strong enough itself to fight it off, allthough with possibility of permanent damage)

The point was lost on you, I guess, that people have done ridiculous things in the name of Christianity. This tu quoque argument falls short here.

This statement makes little if any sense. People who condemn one form of genocide while supporting another is hypocrisy.

No, a brand of Christianity disagrees with him. I'm a Christian, too, and I don't disagree with him, depending on the situation.

I'm sorry, but the reformers did not support birth control. Birth control was first supported by the Anglican Church in 1930 and then much later on other churches who became weak-willed followed that example.

So yes, 1950 years of Christianity disagrees. And it was only till around the 60s that BC really became more prevalent.

What does that have to do with anything? The point is being made that Onan's sin was disobedience. It doesn't matter that he spilled his seed to do it...he could've taken some form of herb that would kill his sperm and the outcome would've been the same. The sin was that he failed to do what God commanded of him.

I think you should read before you post. I was answering someone different who tried to justify the sins of the prophets as a form of justification.

I agree about your statement however, but your removing the action from his disobedience. If you based all sin on the fact of disobedience then God would have not enumerated different forms of sin and disobedience. Secondly, do you honestly think God, with all his moral laws on sexual purity, abstinence, and cleanliness, is honestly gonna approve of people sterilizing themselves for the sake of sexual pleasure? Do you honestly think the apostles and the church fathers did such things? Really think about that.