Hypothetically

[gracealone]

There is no eureka moment in therapy. Just a very gradual desensitizing to the presence of the doubts/obsessions so that you won't feel so horrible when they are there. All OCD is doubt about one thing or another and all of it must be dealt with in the same way no matter what the theme. All of the themes are threatening, scary and feel very, very real to the sufferer. All OCD themes demand 100 percent proof or certainty but no one with OCD can get well without accepting the presence of uncertainty and stopping the ruminating. There isn't going to be an answer that lays it all to rest. The harder you try to find one the worse you will feel. That's just the way it works.
Mitzi

I also thought u and others have said there is no way to know if it is OCD doubt or not and that all doubt is just that doubt so it doesn't make sense that in some point in therapy I would say Eureka! this is OCD. I am not following.

 

[raven1]

Ok just trying to get this straight. Some people have doubts about whether God exists that part is not OCD, OCD is fearing the doubts mean something. ( which I still don't get because they do, doubting is bad) so you go to therapy to try and not ruminate about hell when you cannot know for sure you are not going because you doubt. If they had doubt God existed but just said they didn't know maybe he doesn't and went on with life than they are agnostic. So if my fear if hell goes away and I still doubt I will be agnostic.

 

[gracealone]

Hi Raven,
I still get doubt statements in my head from time to time. (je. "What if God isn't real? What if your really just a fake Christian") Sometimes they will cause a spike in anxiety, sometimes they aren't so upsetting - just nagging. I also still get some of my old "harming thoughts" when I'm around my grandchildren. Sometimes they cause a stab of anxiety and other times they can pop up and I feel very calm about their presence. So by your reasoning, this means that because I still experience those doubts, I'm not only an agnostic but also probably someone who will be a child abuser or really wants to harm children. The anxiety makes the thoughts seem valid but I've learned that this is how OCD gets a hold of me. If I start to try and figure out if the doubt is valid I will get stuck in the OCD cycle. If, even though the thought is making me feel extremely anxious, I choose to let it go and refuse to ruminate about it, I can push past it and it fades away and I am able to live my life without feeling tortured.
Do you think that due to the fact that I still get doubts and still get harming thoughts that I'm most definitely an agnostic or a potential child abuser? I see absolutely no difference between the two of us other than the fact that you are still trying to figure it all out and I am not. I feel better because of that choice but you feel horrible because of your choice. That's the only difference I can see.
If your fear of hell goes away or like me, if it still bugs you from time to time you can still make the choice to walk in faith. Walking in faith has nothing to do with how you feel and everything to do with obedience. To trust is to obey as to obey is to trust. If you had no trust in God you wouldn't bother obeying Him. If you obey Him this means that you have trust in Him. The two go hand in hand they are inseperable. Agnostics don't bother with obedience to God nor are they bothered or troubled about whether that choice is good or bad. Like I said before the supposed ignorance is willful. It's just another excuse to live life as if one isn't accountable to God for their choices. "Choose you this day who you will serve. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord." This is volitional faith.
Sigh!!! Owie is right though. You can't outlogic OCD because it's based in an instinctual fear response. That's why nothing that any of us say ever brings you comfort. But remember this, neither does your continual search for proof or 100% reassurance bring you comfort - it only makes matters worse. Treating OCD as OCD will always feel like risky business. I'm so glad I was willing to run that risk. It was the key to my getting better.
Mitzi

Ok just trying to get this straight. Some people have doubts about whether God exists that part is not OCD, OCD is fearing the doubts mean something. ( which I still don't get because they do, doubting is bad) so you go to therapy to try and not ruminate about hell when you cannot know for sure you are not going because you doubt. If they had doubt God existed but just said they didn't know maybe he doesn't and went on with life than they are agnostic. So if my fear if hell goes away and I still doubt I will be agnostic.

 

[raven1]

The reason I feel different than other Ocders is because I don't really think they doubt just think they do. I doubt for real and I have been told by my uncle in law preacher that dooms me. Also how do I try to sort out if there is nothing after this ( come terms with that possibility ) and not feel like I am going to hell for it. Because I doubt for real don't just have fake doubt how does that not doom my and what can a therapist do for me? She can't tell me I am not going to hell cause nobody can know what God does with doubters. It is illogical to believe doubting is from OCD.

 

[gracealone]

Well Raven,
Prove to me that my doubt is different from yours, not real, just fake as you say. While you're at it prove to me that your doubt is "real" and dooming you to hell. I am asking you for 100% proof. You can't do either. For that matter prove to me that what your Uncle said is true. You are asking for impossibilities and you are also leaning very heavily on things that you cannot prove. I don't even know what you mean by real or unreal doubt. How do you define them. And more importantly how do you enter another persons head and insist that they haven't felt like you feel or experienced what you experience.
The only "real" doubt if that's you want to call it that is the kind where a person insists that there is no God, (which cannot be proved ), and then lives their life according to that belief. Which would be to live and act in a godless manner not fearing any consequence. In the end this has nothing to do with doubt or agnosticism and everything to do with rebellion.
I am not helping you. I'm only making you focus on this all the more and I don't want to do that. I'm not going to get on the hamster wheel with you any longer because I don't want to make you feel worse. This is not because I think you are beyond help but because my answers won't serve to make you feel better and may actually be counterproductive. I am hoping and praying that you grow weary enough of this war to stop fighting it. No more fighting, no more war.
Meanwhile you have my heartfelt and most earnest prayers.
Mitzi

The reason I feel different than other Ocders is because I don't really think they doubt just think they do. I doubt for real and I have been told by my uncle in law preacher that dooms me. Also how do I try to sort out if there is nothing after this ( come terms with that possibility ) and not feel like I am going to hell for it. Because I doubt for real don't just have fake doubt how does that not doom my and what can a therapist do for me? She can't tell me I am not going to hell cause nobody can know what God does with doubters. It is illogical to believe doubting is from OCD.

 

[gracealone]

Just one more PS. I never said that the doubt was from the OCD. What I said or have been trying to say is that the OCD takes any doubt, no matter what the theme and blows it up into a big, huge, hairy, scary deal. Then it says.. "PAY ATTENTION TO THIS NOW! IT'S AN EMERGENCY!" How does it do that? FEAR! Intense, over the top, feel like I'm going to die at any moment fear. It's a fear based disorder. The doubt, or question is just what it latches on to in order to have something to be afraid of. It makes us so afraid that we thought that thought.
Just wanted to clarify. I'm done now. :/
Mitzi

The reason I feel different than other Ocders is because I don't really think they doubt just think they do. I doubt for real and I have been told by my uncle in law preacher that dooms me. Also how do I try to sort out if there is nothing after this ( come terms with that possibility ) and not feel like I am going to hell for it. Because I doubt for real don't just have fake doubt how does that not doom my and what can a therapist do for me? She can't tell me I am not going to hell cause nobody can know what God does with doubters. It is illogical to believe doubting is from OCD.

 

[raven1]

What I mean by real doubt is doubt because you can't prove God is real and you just can't have faith. That is real doubt. Doubt that is real is bad because it is not having faith which is required for salvation. OCD doubt is you just doubt God exist because of your chemical imbalance but deep in your mind you know you really do believe, but you are right I can't prove any of what you have asked. Just as I can't prove I won't go to hell. So I am in trouble. I posted a question on the skeptics forum whether or not I will go to hell for doubt. In more or less words they said yes. Someone has to be wrong only thing is I don't know who is. Everyday it seems more clear maybe I just wasn't chosen for saving.

 

[cedward1]

I read the post you are referring to, but in your question you made it sound like you were talking about someone who refuses to accept Christ as their savior. You aren't refusing, you are just doubting. And you aren't happy about the doubt.

Do you honestly think that if you asked Jesus to help you believe that He would say no? That He would be crucified to save you, and yet refuse to let you come to the faith you need to be saved?

 

[raven1]

I would hopE not but I have also heard the statement who said God is nice.

 

[Merlinius]

I am obsessive compulsive totally to Jesus. It is a condition I have

 

[cedward1]

Who said God is nice? He said it, if you define "nice" as kind, loving, merciful, unwilling that you perish, taking no delight even in the death of the wicked, loving those who are yet His enemies, and even dying on a cross so that the very ones who are now His enemies could become His sons and daughters.

Merlinius, I envy you.

 

[raven1]

Me too merlinius! I didn't mean to imply he was unkind. I just don't know what he will allow.

 

[raven1]

I also wanted to apologize to anyone that tried to help me and have now decided to stop. I was just stating that if doubts are not from OCD than maybe just be for some reason you aren't given faith and it makes no sense to me to treat it as OCD. If God wants us save he will give us that faith. That is why I feel he doesn't want me saved if he exists he has the power to give me faith he does. Just for clarity.