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Hypothetical for Scientists

AV1611VET

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He did, did he? He left a note, written by himself, detailing just how he cleaned up after himself?

Nope, no He didn't.

It's like this, FishFace:

God sends a superflood upon the earth that totally wipes everything out.

One year later this superflood is gone, and 4500 years later even scientists can't find it - (like they can find anything).

Now, who do you think cleaned it up?

Let me ask the same question in an easier way:

Who is the only one who had the power to clean it up?

Some things just go without saying, don't they?

(Or do you really need a Sherlock Holmes to explain this to you?)
 
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AV1611VET

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Furthermore, contrary to AV's personal belief, he did not leave us a note saying he cleaned up the evidence it left. This is deception, pure and simple.

WOW --- I love to witness to scientists --- (I really do).

Paging Sherlock Holmes!
 
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AV1611VET

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Just bear in mind that we can only actually listen to a relatively small number of stars that aren't too far from Earth. So it's a bit unlikely that SETI will find anything, but I see no reason not to try, given how absolutely such a discovery would be were it to occur.

Translation: "We'll keep looking".

(That advice sounds familiar.)
 
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Chalnoth

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Translation: "We'll keep looking".

(That advice sounds familiar.)
Unlike your "keep looking" advice, we don't expect to have seen evidence of extra terrestrials yet, if they did exist. By contrast, if the flood happened, the evidence would be blatantly obvious to modern geology. It simply didn't happen.

And why do you insist that your God is a deceiver?
 
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FishFace

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Nope, no He didn't.

It's like this, FishFace:

God sends a superflood upon the earth that totally wipes everything out.

One year later this superflood is gone, and 4500 years later even scientists can't find it - (like they can find anything).

Now, who do you think cleaned it up?

Let me ask the same question in an easier way:

Who is the only one who had the power to clean it up?

Some things just go without saying, don't they?

(Or do you really need a Sherlock Holmes to explain this to you?)

Yes, yes, I like this game, is it my turn? OK, I assume it isn't (because when AV plays a game, he usually rigs the deck) but I'll take one anyway. Perhaps AV's loaded dice rolled a double one by accident.

It's like this, AV:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster removed your head three days ago, totally wiping you out.

Two days later, your head is back, with no sign of it ever being gone (even your friends don't remember it missing, but like they can remember anything...)

Now, who do you think put your head back on?

Oh wait, here's an easier answer, AV: YOUR HEAD NEVER LEFT YOUR SHOULDERS!

So from now in, instead of forcing me to play silly games, why not respond logically and without unevidenced, a priori assumptions, hmm? How about, gosh, responding to the example. I'll copy it out for you, so you don't need to hunt for it:

It's another murder investigation. You are trying to convict suspect G, now, on the basis that you have a "note" in your words, detailing what he did. Except you're claiming that suspect G wrote the note, whereas in actual fact, it was a note written by someone who merely claimed to know suspect G. The note simply says, "Suspect G killed Mr X."
You are trying to tell us that this constitutes a confession. But clearly that's nonsense - we're still going to convict suspect D, because there's no evidence whatsoever that G did it, and there's loads pointing to D. You claim, now, that G simply framed D. But you also claim that this isn't perversion of the course of justice, oh no - G left a note saying he dunnit!

Except he didn't, someone else wrote the note. And it wasn't even copied word for word, it was "inspired" by G. And instead of detailing the murder and the cleanup, it just claims murder, so G would still be guilty of perverting the course of justice.

Now, I mentioned that I'd used the example before. There's a funny reason why I'm using it again - it's because you already ignored it three times. I don't hold hope this time, after all, it shows your logic to be hopelessly flawed, and you don't seem to like listening to things like that.
 
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FishFace

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Translation: "We'll keep looking".

(That advice sounds familiar.)

In the meantime, by the way, are there any people seriously suggesting we should believe in aliens (on the basis of anything but probability) who, when asked for evidence, say, "we're still looking?"

No, because that's not science, it's religious-style dogma.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Nope, no He didn't.

It's like this, FishFace:

God sends a superflood upon the earth that totally wipes everything out.

One year later this superflood is gone, and 4500 years later even scientists can't find it - (like they can find anything).

Now, who do you think cleaned it up?

I can conceive of that circle than which none more circular can be conceived, and I think we've just seen it.

Witness to the scientists, AV! Speak truth! Big giant circles of truth.
 
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Baggins

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One year later this superflood is gone, and 4500 years later even scientists can't find it - (like they can find anything).

Surely you think they have found ways of letting the scientifically incompetent share their incompetence with thousands of others in ways not even thought of 100 years ago?:)
 
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T

tanzanos

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Actually God sold the excess water from the flood to the Vogon empire; which in turn sold it to the planet Dune for a hefty profit. The story goes that God made a killing but spent it all on special effects to make the universe look older than it is. We all know that the bible says the universe is only 572 years old. If you don't believe me then look in the Bible its all there.
:preach:
 
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Tomk80

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You got that viewpoint in the first place, based on evidence. Then you changed it, based on evidence. Then you changed that, based on evidence; and so it goes, ad infinitum.
Yes, that is the sane way of handling things. Look at the evidence, draw conclusion. If other evidence is found that gainsays that first conclusion, draw new conclusion based on the new evidence.

Since I am not infallable and recognize that I am not, this is the only sane way to go.
 
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AV1611VET

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In the meantime, by the way, are there any people seriously suggesting we should believe in aliens (on the basis of anything but probability) who, when asked for evidence, say, "we're still looking?"

No, because that's not science, it's religious-style dogma.

You needed S.E.T.I. to confirm what the Bible already says exists?

You needed a Hubble Telescope to "know" the universe is expanding?

Christians who take a literal view of Scripture are lightyears ahead of you "scientists", and are getting bored waiting for you to catch up.
 
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AV1611VET

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I can conceive of that circle than which none more circular can be conceived, and I think we've just seen it.

Was this even a sentence?
 
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AV1611VET

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Very well, AV - chapter and verse where it says that geological evidence for the flood was removed, please.

Wow --- LOL --- I just said there is none.

None --- zero --- He didn't bother to document it.

He didn't have to.

If I spilled milk all over the floor, and an hour later it's cleaned up, and I'm the only one at home:
  • Who cleaned up the milk?
 
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AV1611VET

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Actually God sold the excess water from the flood to the Vogon empire; which in turn sold it to the planet Dune for a hefty profit. The story goes that God made a killing but spent it all on special effects to make the universe look older than it is. We all know that the bible says the universe is only 572 years old. If you don't believe me then look in the Bible its all there.
:preach:

It's easier for you atheists to make jokes than it is to turn on a light bulb, isn't it?
 
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Tomk80

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Wow --- LOL --- I just said there is none.

None --- zero --- He didn't bother to document it.

He didn't have to.

If I spilled milk all over the floor, and an hour later it's cleaned up, and I'm the only one at home:
  • Who cleaned up the milk?
Who says you spilled milk in the first place. That's the real question here. You not just cleaned up after you, you went through an enormous amount of trouble to make it seem the milk wasn't there at all ever. You destroyed the coupons proving it was bought. You poured the remaining milk in the bottle down the drain and subsequently disposed of the bottle to make it seem that there was never any milk in the house at all. You not just cleaned up after yourself, you did a minute swap of every little place present to make it seem that you never spilled milk, even if someone looked very closely. You went way beyond just cleaning up after yourself. You very carefully removed any and all traces that the event ever happened.
 
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FishFace

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You needed S.E.T.I. to confirm what the Bible already says exists?

You needed a Hubble Telescope to "know" the universe is expanding?

Christians who take a literal view of Scripture are lightyears ahead of you "scientists", and are getting bored waiting for you to catch up.

If Christians are lightyears ahead of scientists, why did none of them work out the universe was expanding before it was discovered by science, I wonder? Could it be because it's only through ridiculously contorted interpretation of the Bible that such a ludicrous reading of it can be made? Naa, couldn't be!

In any case, your lack of response indicates that you know we don't treat SETI like you treat the flood. We know there might be alien life out there, but we haven't drawn our conclusion.
 
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FishFace

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Wow --- LOL --- I just said there is none.

None --- zero --- He didn't bother to document it.

He didn't have to.

If I spilled milk all over the floor, and an hour later it's cleaned up, and I'm the only one at home:
  • Who cleaned up the milk?

On the other hand, if you actually flooded the house with milk, and left a note to your family, they might well wonder if there was not a trace when they returned.
 
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Chalnoth

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Who says you spilled milk in the first place. That's the real question here. You not just cleaned up after you, you went through an enormous amount of trouble to make it seem the milk wasn't there at all ever. You destroyed the coupons proving it was bought. You poured the remaining milk in the bottle down the drain and subsequently disposed of the bottle to make it seem that there was never any milk in the house at all. You not just cleaned up after yourself, you did a minute swap of every little place present to make it seem that you never spilled milk, even if someone looked very closely. You went way beyond just cleaning up after yourself. You very carefully removed any and all traces that the event ever happened.
...and, to make the analogy complete, you then fabricated evidence for a completely different series of events occuring.
 
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