Hypnosis In Christianity Exposed!

[Biblicist]

For us Catholics the Holy Spirit is the Katechon, and this notion is Eucharistic as it is pneumatological.

Having just now undertaken a Google search on the meaning of 'Katechon' . . . I guess that you were maybe trying to say no, or that his tangible presence is not all that relevant?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Having just now undertaken a Google search on the meaning of 'Katechon' . . . I guess that you were maybe trying to say no, or that his tangible presence is not all that relevant?

No, I said that the Katechon is identified within the Catholic tradition as both the Eucharist and the Holy Spirit. The whole Trinity is involved and invoked in the Mass. The Holy Spirit is also understood to be within the Catholic Church. While some Catholics have appropriated the strange charismatic movement I tend to see this as an adolescent phase, what is permanent within Catholicism (and Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy and various Lutherans and Anglicans) is the perpetual celebration of Eucharist; what is permanent is Liturgy.

 

[Biblicist]

No, I said that the Katechon is identified within the Catholic tradition as both the Eucharist and the Holy Spirit. The whole Trinity is involved and invoked in the Mass. The Holy Spirit is also understood to be within the Catholic Church. While some Catholics have appropriated the strange charismatic movement I tend to see this as an adolescent phase, what is permanent within Catholicism (and Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy and various Lutherans and Anglicans) is the perpetual celebration of Eucharist; what is permanent is Liturgy.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. If I am reading you correctly, it seems that you have found a method where the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit is not all that necessary, where you have been able to replace him with procedures, chants and the like. Mind you, some Pentecostals can do much the same where many have joined the Evangelicals by adopting the seeker-sensitive ethos.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Okay, thanks for the clarification. If I am reading you correctly, it seems that you have found a method where the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit is not all that necessary, where you have been able to replace him with procedures, chants and the like. Mind you, some Pentecostals can do much the same where many have joined the Evangelicals by adopting the seeker-sensitive ethos.

Exactly the opposite, the chants and rituals and procedures are all the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Biblicist]

Exactly the opposite, the chants and rituals and procedures are all the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit.

Oh, so all we have to do is to say a few chants and a couple of rituals and hey presto, the Holy Spirit is supposed to all of a sudden appear, but as to what he is supposed to be doing while your chanting has me at a bit of a loss.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Oh, so all we have to do is to say a few chants and a couple of rituals and hey presto, the Holy Spirit is supposed to all of a sudden appear, but as to what he is supposed to be doing while your chanting has me at a bit of a loss.

It's the Holy Spirit who prays through us in worship of God. The Holy Spirit accompanies the Catholic Church (and I believe the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, perhaps even some forms of Anglicanism and Lutheranism) bringing the Church into union with God.

 

[Biblicist]

It's the Holy Spirit who prays through us in worship of God. The Holy Spirit accompanies the Catholic Church (and I believe the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, perhaps even some forms of Anglicanism and Lutheranism) bringing the Church into union with God.

So it seems that as you chant and go through your liturgies, which I guess are designed by man, then the Holy Spirit then decides to pray to the Father on your behalf . . . interesting indeed; this begs the question, if you get a few words wrong with your chants does the Holy Spirit then stop. I know that we don't have as many books of the Bible that you do, so are these chants and even the liturgies prescribed by the Apostles within these books, which could be the reason that I have never encountered them within my studies.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

So it seems that as you chant and go through your liturgies, which I guess are designed by man, then the Holy Spirit then decides to pray to the Father on your behalf . . . interesting indeed; this begs the question, if you get a few words wrong with your chants does the Holy Spirit then stop. I know that we don't have as many books of the Bible that you do, so are these chants and even the liturgies prescribed by the Apostles within these books, which could be the reason that I have never encountered them within my studies.

This is a very stale interpretation of the rituals. For Sacramental and Eucharistic Christianities the ritual is lively. If you've ever attended a Catholic Mass you'd hear the children laughing and crying, the priests chanting the prayers and liturgies the congregation chanting the prayers back, it's really very beautiful. All of this, from the laughing and crying children to the whispering old woman, the Holy Spirit is drawing into God. And with the Consecration of the Host, the Holy Spirit draws the congregation into the Full Presence, the Parousia, of Christ.

The Liturgies aren't in Scripture, Scripture is Liturgy.

 

[Biblicist]

This is a very stale interpretation of the rituals. For Sacramental and Eucharistic Christianities the ritual is lively. If you've ever attended a Catholic Mass you'd hear the children laughing and crying, the priests chanting the prayers and liturgies the congregation chanting the prayers back, it's really very beautiful. All of this, from the laughing and crying children to the whispering old woman, the Holy Spirit is drawing into God. And with the Consecration of the Host, the Holy Spirit draws the congregation into the Full Presence, the Parousia, of Christ.

The Liturgies aren't in Scripture, Scripture is Liturgy.

In my early days we attended a high-church Anglican congregation where I remember that we had a very liturgical form or worship, but other than with the variety of kneeling and standing it seems that we were essentially spectators where as kids I doubt if any of us had the slightest idea of what was going on.

One aspect with Pentecostal praise and worship that the vast majority of those who visit from the more liturgical congregations comment on, is that they are regularly fascinated with the vibrancy of Pentecostal worship where an entire congregation of maybe hundreds or even thousands can unite in praise to the Lord. By this, I'm not referring to the rather common practice where various Pentecostals have adopted the Evangelical seeker-sensitive approach to worship, where the quality of their praise and worship is judged by the loudness of the muso's and with the arrangement of their light show, but with how so many can unite in praise and worship essentially as one before the Lord.

I suppose it goes to say, if the liturgies are not to be found within the Scriptures, then why not simply return to Apostolic teaching and allow the Holy Spirit to minister through us in praise and worship to the Father!

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

In my early days we attended a high-church Anglican congregation where I remember that we had a very liturgical form or worship, but other than with the variety of kneeling and standing it seems that we were essentially spectators where as kids I doubt if any of us had the slightest idea of what was going on.

One aspect with Pentecostal praise and worship that the vast majority of those who visit from the more liturgical congregations comment on, is that they are regularly fascinated with the vibrancy of Pentecostal worship where an entire congregation of maybe hundreds or even thousands can unite in praise to the Lord. By this, I'm not referring to the rather common practice where various Pentecostals have adopted the Evangelical seeker-sensitive approach to worship, where the quality of their praise and worship is judged by the loudness of the muso's and with the arrangement of their light show, but with how so many can unite in praise and worship essentially as one before the Lord.

Yeah, your lot really enjoys singing songs... It's still not a Eucharist.

 

[Biblicist]

Yeah, your lot really enjoys singing songs... It's still not a Eucharist.

I agree that the seeker-sensitive types are more inclined to sing songs, but a Pentecostal who has any where-withal will fully understand and appreciate being able to both praise and worship the Father, both in the Spirit and in truth, this is something that neither the liturgies or the seeker-sensitive ethos can ever come close to emulating. During the 70's and 80's in particular it was common to encounter Roman Catholics who would come across to maybe our evening meetings where they could participate in Full Gospel praise and worship as they would often say that their own forms of worship cannot compare.

 

[RDKirk]

Why because we run reverent and orderly services? And don't play chase around the pews or run laps, roll around like wiggly worms, convulse like the demon possessed, bark like dogs, bleat like animals, or participate in holy laughter.

THIS IS MASS HYPNOSIS IN ACTION! The repetitive reduntant chorus actually shouting, the repetitive reduntant body motions. They have lulled themselves into an altered state of consciousness or mass hypnosis.

No, that's not hypnosis. Nor is a mosh pit. Emotionalism, yes.

 

[RDKirk]

And all you do is scoff and use misdirection, because the WOF is not the subject of these 2 videos.

Methods of hypnosis employed by the charismatic movement is the subject. AND VERY, VERY little else.

His point is that you've got people who know WOF attempting to "throw shade" on a subject they don't know about.

And it's not hypnosis. They don't actually know what hypnosis is, either.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I agree that the seeker-sensitive types are more inclined to sing songs, but a Pentecostal who has any where-withal will fully understand and appreciate being able to both praise and worship the Father, both in the Spirit and in truth, this is something that neither the liturgies or the seeker-sensitive ethos can ever come close to emulating. During the 70's and 80's in particular it was common to encounter Roman Catholics who would come across to maybe our evening meetings where they could participate in Full Gospel praise and worship as they would often say that their own forms of worship cannot compare.

I can't speak for them but I will.

On the one hand I find it utterly surprising that a Catholic would consider the songs in Pentecostal services over the Eucharist.

On the other hand I don't think it's an accident that Pentecostal services appear so similar to the current trends in popular music, the charts, etc., and have historically always attempted to use popular music.

 

[RDKirk]

I can't speak for them but I will.

On the one hand I find it utterly surprising that a Catholic would consider the songs in Pentecostal services over the Eucharist.

On the other hand I don't think it's an accident that Pentecostal services appear so similar to the current trends in popular music, the charts, etc., and have historically always attempted to use popular music.

I think what we have here is just another Protestants v Catholics rant.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I think what we have here is just another Protestants v Catholics rant.

That's not fair. Catholics have (or should have) a very high opinion of the Eucharist that's why I find the idea of Catholics doing Pentecostalism so shocking. Note, I said Pentecostalism not Protestantism in general, I rather like some forms of Anglicanism and Lutheranism, albeit I like the catholic parts of them.

 

[Biblicist]

I can't speak for them but I will.

On the one hand I find it utterly surprising that a Catholic would consider the songs in Pentecostal services over the Eucharist.

Even though the leadership of the Roman Catholic church has warmly and openly endorsed the Roman Catholic charismatic movement which supposedly consists of quite a few million people, I suspect that their decision was more a pragmatic one where they recognised that their people were losing interest with their traditional liturgies and being attracted to the Full Gospel nature of charismatic worship. I suspect that in regions such as South America, where of course the current pope comes from, he would have been well aware that if they did not embrace the charismatic movement particulary in that part of the world, that South America would quickly be completely lost to Rome.

On the other hand I don't think it's an accident that Pentecostal services appear so similar to the current trends in popular music, the charts, etc., and have historically always attempted to use popular music.

In my view, when we encounter the seeker-sensitive style of meetings within a "Pentecostal" congregation, this tends to reflect a very stale form of worship where the members of the congregation rarely seem to be involved in worship, but where they often blandly stand by observing the antics on the stage.

When I have visited the massive "Pentecostal" Hillsong church in Sydney, where their meetings have upwards of 4,000 in attendance (or maybe more), in my opinion, even though their meetings are technically brilliant (I have family members who are involved in their media team as well), I still tend to find their times of praise and worship to be pretty dull, where when I look across their massive meetings, most people are simply standing by watching the performance. So when I dismiss the liturgical form of worship as having any real validity, I am also very aware that large swabs of the Pentecostal movement have also relegated the Holy Spirit to the sidelines where instead the so called "moving of the Spirit" is gauged by how loud the muso's can be and with how effective their sound and light shows are.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Even though the leadership of the Roman Catholic church has warmly and openly endorsed the Roman Catholic charismatic movement which supposedly consists of quite a few million people, I suspect that their decision was more a pragmatic one where they recognised that their people were losing interest with their traditional liturgies and being attracted to the Full Gospel nature of charismatic worship. I suspect that in regions such as South America, where of course the current pope comes from, he would have been well aware that if they did not embrace the charismatic movement particulary in that part of the world, that South America would quickly be completely lost to Rome.

I think it was likely a pragmatic decision. And it has diluted liberation theology prevalent in these areas, especially the fact that the charismatics and the Protestants gaining traction in South America are very conservative.

In my view, when we encounter the seeker-sensitive style of meetings within a "Pentecostal" congregation, this tends to reflect a very stale form of worship where the members of the congregation rarely seem to be involved in worship, but where they often blandly stand by observing the antics on the stage.

When I have visited the massive "Pentecostal" Hillsong church in Sydney, where their meetings have upwards of 4,000 in attendance (or maybe more), in my opinion, even though their meetings are technically brilliant (I have family members who are involved in their media team as well), I still tend to find their times of praise and worship to be pretty dull, where when I look across their massive meetings, most people are simply standing by watching the performance. So when I dismiss the liturgical form of worship as having any real validity, I am also very aware that large swabs of the Pentecostal movement have also relegated the Holy Spirit to the sidelines where instead the so called "moving of the Spirit" is gauged by how loud the muso's can be and with how effective their sound and light show are.

My understanding is that Hillsong train their musicians to be able to use the most emotive inducing chords, and interestingly they are very diligent in practising what appear to be spontaneous musical flows... I find that really very telling and strange.

Dismissing liturgical worship is really removing yourself from any and every apostolic tradition. I can't understand how one would consider their faith having any continuity at all with anything resembling Christianity which has existed for the past two millennia... If one would magically cut and paste Pentecostalism into the fifth century CE I think that it would appear so very alien to the Christians then that they wouldn't know what to make of it.

 

[Biblicist]

Dismissing liturgical worship is really removing yourself from any and every apostolic tradition. I can't understand how one would consider their faith having any continuity at all with anything resembling Christianity which has existed for the past two millennia... If one would magically cut and paste Pentecostalism into the fifth century CE I think that it would appear so very alien to the Christians then that they wouldn't know what to make of it.

As you have already admitted that your liturgies are not contained within the Scriptures, this logically means that your denominations liturgies have no connection with the teachings of the Apostles, if they had, then they would be at least be found in part within the Word, so this means that your point is moot. As my primary focus is with Pneumatic theology, where I endeavour to know what is being said by the best minds within the church, I would have to say that I cannot make any connection whatsoever with the various liturgical practices of the older denominations with that of Apostolic teaching.

For that matter, for the life of me, I cannot fathom why so many parts of the Western Pentecostal church has adopted the Evangelical seeker-sensitive model of worship, but I suppose that both the liturgical and seeker-sensitive forms of worship/entertainment are both the result of a need to replace the diminishing presence of the Holy Spirit within their respective denominations/congregations.

As such both the liturgical forms of worship along with that of the contemporary seeker-sensitive forms of worship are both the products of human invention, where if we are fortunate enough, the Holy Spirit might occassionaly be able to find an opportunity to minister to the Saints.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

As you have already admitted that your liturgies are not contained within the Scriptures, this logically means that your denominations liturgies have no connection with the teachings of the Apostles, if they had, then they would be at least be found in part within the Word, so this means that your point is moot. As my primary focus is with Pneumatic theology, where I endeavour to know what is being said by the best minds within the church, I would have to say that I cannot make any connection whatsoever with the various liturgical practices of the older denominations with that of Apostolic teaching.

So the very complex Temple-oriented Judaism out of which Christianity emerged, along with all its ritualism, calendars and liturgies and then produced the New Testament and subsequently began again engaging in ritual, liturgy and sacred calendars. I simply see the NT as part of this continuum, the texts are liturgical. They don't contain liturgical instructions and formulas because they are the liturgies of the early Christian communities which produced them.