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Hypnosis and evolution

ShaunJ72

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Because suggestibility has an evolutionary advantage. I can give you theoretical examples of how believing or doing what your told is better for survival, of the population, than not being an "independent thinker". But I am lazy and hope that this must be almost a self-evident truth for you.
You are not quite right, in fact you are mostly wrong. It is widely recognised that it is evolutionarily beneficial to the species for children to be suggestible and credulous by nature - because of the genuine need for certain things to be pointed out to them like "Don't put your hand in the fire", "Don't poke the doggy with a sharp stick" and "Don't eat your sister's poo" as it takes years for children to understand danger and potential consequences, and parents can't always be there.

This natural credulity in children is, always has been and always will be religion's most potent tool in seeding its next generation. I'm sure you know the famous Jesuit motto: "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man". They knew, and they were open about it. Children believe what they are told: God/Santa/tooth fairy/whatever, they generally have extremely limited intellectual defences to such things, and as such they are ripe for exploitation.

This evolutionary loophole is unremittingly used to its advantage by every organised religion, and it is hard to believe that they could continue to exist on any significant scale without it.

On the other hand docile, unquestioning credulity in adults does nothing for the individual or for our species, and as such it righly merits sympathetic incredulity or a well directed (metaphorical) kick up the ass.
 
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Naraoia

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We are terrible at philosophy, it does not suit the way we think.

The scientific method, however, suits our individual stubbornness and herdish behaviour.
OK, this doesn't seem related to what I wrote, and the second sentence doesn't even make sense. Sometimes I find it really hard to decipher your posts.
 
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Maxwell511

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Therefore you are example against the hypnosis benefits via following the leader thing...

You seem to be conflating suggestibility (which is the mild form of hypnosis) with blind worship of a leader.

Human beings are highly suggestible. You may seem to hate this quality within us because it can breed Hitlers and Stalins. However I see it breed, more often, things like Trust.

This is why things like lying* are a major issue for us. We will believe what you say as long as it does not go against what we were told, or experienced, before.

*I may be wrong but I have not found any moral code, religious or otherwise, that does not think that expressing an known falsehood is not an immoral act.
 
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Maxwell511

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You are not quite right, in fact you are mostly wrong. It is widely recognised that it is evolutionarily beneficial to the species for children to be suggestible and credulous by nature - because of the genuine need for certain things to be pointed out to them like "Don't put your hand in the fire", "Don't poke the doggy with a sharp stick" and "Don't eat your sister's poo" as it takes years for children to understand danger and potential consequences, and parents can't always be there.

This natural credulity in children is, always has been and always will be religion's most potent tool in seeding its next generation. I'm sure you know the famous Jesuit motto: "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man". They knew, and they were open about it. Children believe what they are told: God/Santa/tooth fairy/whatever, they generally have extremely limited intellectual defences to such things, and as such they are ripe for exploitation.

This evolutionary loophole is unremittingly used to its advantage by every organised religion, and it is hard to believe that they could continue to exist on any significant scale without it.

On the other hand docile, unquestioning credulity in adults does nothing for the individual or for our species, and as such it righly merits sympathetic incredulity or a well directed (metaphorical) kick up the ass.

You are arguing against an ability having an evolutionary advantage based on social norms and your opinion. Also you seem to think that credulity is limited to children in our species.

I am very credulous person though. As an example;

I was in Dun Laoghaire the other day and I was hungry. I had no money on me and was looking for an ATM. I could not find one. Finally I stopped a woman on the street and asked where can I find an ATM. She gave me directions and I (being the credulous person that I am) followed them. I don't know if it was the million of years of biological evolution, or the fact that I was drunk and homeless looking, why I did what I did. But I followed very complex directions, that I had no way to show were true (empirically or logically) found an ATM and got bought a sandwich.

Obviously I sat there eating the sandwich thinking "Oh the credulous fools, why would they believe things they are told? I am a free thinker. Why does credulity exist when it has no evolutionary advantage?". I then went home and had sex with my girlfriend.
 
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Ar Cosc

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You are arguing against an ability having an evolutionary advantage based on social norms and your opinion. Also you seem to think that credulity is limited to children in our species.

I am very credulous person though. As an example;

I was in Dun Laoghaire the other day and I was hungry. I had no money on me and was looking for an ATM. I could not find one. Finally I stopped a woman on the street and asked where can I find an ATM. She gave me directions and I (being the credulous person that I am) followed them. I don't know if it was the million of years of biological evolution, or the fact that I was drunk and homeless looking, why I did what I did. But I followed very complex directions, that I had no way to show were true (empirically or logically) found an ATM and got bought a sandwich.

Obviously I sat there eating the sandwich thinking "Oh the credulous fools, why would they believe things they are told? I am a free thinker. Why does credulity exist when it has no evolutionary advantage?". I then went home and had sex with my girlfriend.

There's one just on the side of the Pavilion Theatre, just down from Meadows and Byrne, and Mao's. Also two on the main street, by the exit to the shopping centre. I wonder is there an evolutionary advantage to giving needlessly complex directions!
 
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Maxwell511

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OK, this doesn't seem related to what I wrote, and the second sentence doesn't even make sense. Sometimes I find it really hard to decipher your posts.

Thank you for even attempting to decipher the nonsense I post. :)
 
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Maxwell511

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There's one just on the side of the Pavilion Theatre, just down from Meadows and Byrne, and Mao's. Also two on the main street, by the exit to the shopping centre. I wonder is there an evolutionary advantage to giving needlessly complex directions!

There's a theatre in Dun Laoghaire?
 
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Ar Cosc

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There's a theatre in Dun Laoghaire?


Yeah, it's just next to that ATM! :thumbsup:




It's down at the bottom of the street from the shopping centre to the seafront, diagonally across from the DART station. Second floor of that big grey building there.
 
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Maxwell511

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It's down at the bottom of the street from the shopping centre to the seafront, diagonally across from the DART station. Second floor of that big grey building there.

The building with an O'Briens on the ground floor?
 
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ShaunJ72

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You are arguing against an ability having an evolutionary advantage based on social norms and your opinion. Also you seem to think that credulity is limited to children in our species.

Um, where did I say that? (I didn't)

I said it is an evolutionary benefit and survival mechanism in children. As adults this is thankfully not the case. If you removed the traits of curiosity and critical thinking (which evolutionary processes would, if they were not advantageous), we would be no better off than sheep. It would be depressing to be continually outwitted by a border collie :D.

If we all believed what we were told by people in authority we would all still believe that earth is flat, the sun revolves around the earth and that illness is caused by evil spirits. We do not still live in caves because we are a curious species, not satisfied with the limitations of what we have or what we know. Our drive to question, learn and explore is our greatest asset, leading us to our greatest accomplishments, and the thing which organised religion has always sought (and failed) to suppress.

We, as adults, believe people we trust based on available evidence and on our experiences. Sometimes we trust instinct and intuition when limited evidence is available to help with a particular choice, but generally we consider what we are told, what we see, what we hear and what has happened previously before we decide something, or we really should do anyway.

Children do not have these intellectual defences. How do you think it has always been so easy for some priests to sexually abuse children? because they are programmed to obey what an adult says to them, particularly someone in authority like a priest.

Some adults are also clearly credulous and susceptible to the kind of indoctrination that children are so vulnerable to, but it is more often than not after a mental or emotional breakdown, or if they have underlying mental health issues or a learning disability. Not every case, of course, but mostly.

If religions were only able to pitch their wares to rational adults who had had no childhood pre-exposure to religion it would be game over. Luckily, you will always have children and vulnerable adults.

I am very credulous person though. As an example;

I was in Dun Laoghaire the other day and I was hungry. I had no money on me and was looking for an ATM. I could not find one. Finally I stopped a woman on the street and asked where can I find an ATM. She gave me directions and I (being the credulous person that I am) followed them. I don't know if it was the million of years of biological evolution, or the fact that I was drunk and homeless looking, why I did what I did. But I followed very complex directions, that I had no way to show were true (empirically or logically) found an ATM and got bought a sandwich.

Obviously I sat there eating the sandwich thinking "Oh the credulous fools, why would they believe things they are told? I am a free thinker. Why does credulity exist when it has no evolutionary advantage?".

Thanks for your lovely story. Heartwarming. If you'd been so credulous in most big cities in the world you'd have been robbed and probably worse. I've been to Dun Laoghaire, It's hardly Soweto, is it?

I also note you asked a woman. If there were only large shifty looking large blokes around what would you have done? What would you have done if a bloke you asked for directions said that if you just game him your cash card he would have a word with his brother who knows the special code to enter at cashpoints and you would get unlimited money at every cash machine in Dun Laoghaire?

Would you have been credulous?

Conspicuous credulity in adults is called naivety and is rather pathetic in those who should know better, and almost always exploited by others. It basically means you are a mug.
 
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Maxwell511

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We, as adults, believe people we trust based on available evidence and on our experiences. Sometimes we trust instinct and intuition when limited evidence is available to help with a particular choice, but generally we consider what we are told, what we see, what we hear and what has happened previously before we decide something, or we really should do anyway.

That is an excellent opinion. Obviously it is counter to pretty much all scientific studies on human reasoning. That is why I like it.

Can you explain why you believe this, this kind of thought is incredibly interesting to me. I really hope what you say about yourself is true, because you will be a massive outlier to these studies.

Just curious: are you an economist? Or do you study anything related to economics?

Thanks for your lovely story. Heartwarming. If you'd been so credulous in most big cities in the world you'd have been robbed and probably worse. I've been to Dun Laoghaire, It's hardly Soweto, is it?
I think you totally missed the point of the story.

Also I am lower class, I have prevented alot of muggings by convincing people to break into cars instead. I just really don't think mugging people is okay. I am not naive, I am just a well educated prole.
 
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Upisoft

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You seem to be conflating suggestibility (which is the mild form of hypnosis) with blind worship of a leader.
One doesn't blindly follow a leader for no reason. Apparently they have to believe the leader is speaking the Truth. Thus, the suggestibility would have great role.

Human beings are highly suggestible. You may seem to hate this quality within us because it can breed Hitlers and Stalins. However I see it breed, more often, things like Trust.
Hate? No. Who can hate himself genuinely? Frustration is more adequate word.
And it seems the Trust is build more often than not, to make someone able to back-stab you.


This is why things like lying* are a major issue for us. We will believe what you say as long as it does not go against what we were told, or experienced, before.

*I may be wrong but I have not found any moral code, religious or otherwise, that does not think that expressing an known falsehood is not an immoral act.
If a lie will bring more good than any other option, it is moral to lie.
 
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Seamus Riley

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Hi all,

I was interested in the phenomenon of hypnosis. I was googling around and I have found that it is globally accepted that the phenomenon exists. Then I thought about what could be the benefit that we have this ability to switch to a state of increased suggestibility. How on Earth we could have evolved this ability?

One answer could be this is a leftover interface that helped our creator to "debug" us. Anyway this will not help Christians and most theists, as they have to give up on free will and omnipotence of the Creator.

So, my question is if there is any naturalistic explanation to this phenomenon?:confused:

i can't offer a better naturalistic explanation than what's already been stated, but to take up the theists point of view, i'm not exactly sure how existence of the phenomenon poses a challenge to the concept of free will. has it ever been demonstrated that someone can be hypnotized against their will? even so, let's make your argument all the more easier. since the power of hypnosis is almost nothing like its popularly portrayed, lets instead give a girl ruffies and then sleep with her against her will. does this at all circumvent the concept of free will from a religious perspective? hypnosis, ruffies or even pointing a gun at someone and forcing them to espouse false beliefs only constitute a momentary suspension of free will or even possibly only the appearance of such a suspension.
 
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Maxwell511

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One doesn't blindly follow a leader for no reason. Apparently they have to believe the leader is speaking the Truth. Thus, the suggestibility would have great role.

Of course, it would.

Hate? No. Who can hate himself genuinely? Frustration is more adequate word.

I understand that position.

And it seems the Trust is build more often than not, to make someone able to back-stab you.

Have you been hurt recently?

All we have is each other, if we forget that we will be led to madness or worse. Trust me on this. Some people will hurt you either through neglect or malice. Most people will love you and defend you to the death. Sometimes we forget this.

If a lie will bring more good than any other option, it is moral to lie.

The fact that we ask this question tells a lot about ourselves as a species and about how we think and are.
 
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Upisoft

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perhaps "necessary". i'm not certain it is "moral".
Why something will be "necessary"? You can tell the truth in any situation. Can you give me an example when telling a lie is "necessary" and people can't do otherwise.
 
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Upisoft

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i can't offer a better naturalistic explanation than what's already been stated, but to take up the theists point of view, i'm not exactly sure how existence of the phenomenon poses a challenge to the concept of free will. has it ever been demonstrated that someone can be hypnotized against their will? even so, let's make your argument all the more easier. since the power of hypnosis is almost nothing like its popularly portrayed, lets instead give a girl ruffies and then sleep with her against her will. does this at all circumvent the concept of free will from a religious perspective? hypnosis, ruffies or even pointing a gun at someone and forcing them to espouse false beliefs only constitute a momentary suspension of free will or even possibly only the appearance of such a suspension.

Hypnotized against their will... perhaps not without the help of chemicals.
I see now the reproductive benefit of hypnosis... make her believe she wants you sexually. :D

And about the theologies that depend on the concept of free-will. The sole existence of a tool that can temporarily disturb your free will puts doubts on the good intentions of the creator. The bad guy (the devil, Satana, etc.) will have much easier time to mess your mind if you were hypnotized(willfully) and then he takes over the process. One can even argue that the Adam and Eve story could be interpreted by the snake hypnotizing them. After all the only thing forbidden was to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree, not to be hypnotized.
 
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Seamus Riley

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we may be straying too far from natural sciences and into philosophy here, but perhaps it may be necessary to lie in order to save someone's life. i don't necessarily see this as moral. example, a cop shoots a man to save the life of a woman because the man is threatening her life directly. the man dies, the cop is generally regarded as having done the "right thing" but is still haunted at the idea of killing even though the man is generally regarded as being at fault in this situation.

i see what you're saying and that you'd like me to re-examine words such as "necessary". thank you. with all due respect, i'd prefer to withdraw my previous comment and just state that it was my opinion, but that i'd rather not get into an ethics discussion right now because i can see it would go on quite a long time, and i'm not really trying to prove anything.
 
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