Hyphenated last names

NothingIsImpossible

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VG well we agree to disagree then. Though for clarification I will talk about "devils plan". I mean it as the devil always finds something to get people to argue about and cause more division. In this case the more modern day feminist who tends to attack men and think all men are pigs. Mean, evil, bad....etc attitudes give into anger. Which is what the devil wants. So when I see modern day feminists, I tend to think of that (assuming they are men hating). Where as the older feminists were about womens rights, not acting like men are all the same and the worse thing ever. So in regards to the name thing, the devil has done well because hes gotten the sexes to argue about something that isn't really a big deal to begin with. Hence causing more chaos as part of his plan.

Or for a different example the split among christians on any number of things like how to pray, when to pray, who should correct, what church to go to, what do is church...etc. God certainly wouldn't want us arguing about those things, nor whos last name is taken. Though we do have free will to of course. But yes last names weren't a thing back then and there no evidence either way for supporting any last name thats chosen.
 
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JackRT

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You have a strange perception of modern feminists. In my entire life (72 years) I have met a great many feminists but I have yet to meet a "man-hating feminist". I know they exist but they are to feminism what the KKK are to Christianity ---- a tiny but vocal minority.

Why It's Sad When Women Say They Oppose Feminism
by Marcia Sirota

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/marcia-sirota/women-anti-feminist_b_6794542.html

It's very strange to me that the notion of feminism currently seems to be equated with man-hating or man-bashing. As a feminist myself, surrounded by many other feminists, it's clear that none of us have the least bit of animosity, contempt or destructive wishes toward men.

For feminists the world over, the term identifies those of us who simply want men and women to be regarded as equals and treated as equals. Nothing more and nothing less. We feminists have nothing against men. We have no wish to take anything away from them. What we do want is for men to share what they have with women. Feminists don't feel superior to men; we're not angry or hateful toward men, and we don't want to deprive men of what they're entitled to, either.

What we want is to be on an equal playing field; accorded the same rights, privileges and protections as men, as well as the same opportunities and rewards. Anyone who's paying attention can see that there's nothing anti-men about these wishes.

As a feminist, I acknowledge that there are differences between men and women, as well as the fact that there may be things that some men are better at than some women, and vice-versa, but none of this makes either gender superior or inferior.

I wonder whether those men who decry the notion of feminism simply don't want to share what they have with us, and whether those women who are "against feminism" are simply alining themselves on the side of those who have more.

Men who oppose feminism appear to want it all for themselves; all the power, the money, the rights and privileges, even the freedom to behave badly toward women.

Women who oppose feminism appear to be fearful of alienating men. They must have so little faith in our capabilities as women to advocate for ourselves and to achieve our goal of living as equal, and successful, members of society. Perhaps these "anti-feminist" women are fearful of potential male backlash against our attempts at becoming equal citizens, or maybe they just don't understand what feminism really is.

It's sad when women say they oppose feminism, because if they bothered to learn what it actually is, how could they disagree with an idea that proposes their having the same rights, opportunities and privileges as men? Unless of course, these women believe that men wouldn't like them if they were equal. This presupposes that some (perhaps many) women are prepared to abdicate their rights to equal citizenry, believing that this would make them more desirable to men.

What both men and women need to know is that everyone will be happier if women are accorded equal rights. Women making equal wages will only benefit families; women being regarded as equal will decrease violence toward women, both domestic and otherwise, and women being their best selves will be more interesting, loving, joyful and giving partners to men.

Another important thing that embracing feminism could do is decrease female hostility toward men. Women who are disenfranchised (whether through their own choice to reject feminism or because of the way things are) very often resent men. They become angry, even enraged toward men who hold the balance of power. Women often can be contemptuous of their husbands or boyfriends, complaining bitterly about them to their female friends. Women can leak their hostility toward their partner or explode in anger, all because they're enraged at the obvious, and obviously unfair, power imbalance that exists between a fully empowered male citizen and a woman who is, for all intents and purposes, considered to be a second-class citizen.

We feminists, on the other hand, see ourselves as equal to men, so even if society refuses to accord us our equal rights, we assert our needs in our personal and professional relationships.
Feeling empowered, we have no reason to feel anything other than warmly and positively toward the men in our lives.

Feminists don't tolerate abuse, so we don't build up rage toward men; we assert ourselves in the workplace, so even when we're treated unfairly, just because we're women, we don't resent men so much as bemoan the antiquated, dumb-headed system that prevents us all from being our best selves.

Nothing bad will come of us embracing the notion of feminism. Yes, perhaps some greedy, selfish men will resent having to share, but they'll just have to get over it. And perhaps some fearful women will want to hold onto the idea that a man will only want them if he doesn't have to respect them, but hopefully they'll see that it's better to be loved as well as respected by the men in their lives.

Feminism is not a dirty word, anymore than love is, or respect, or compassion or consideration. When people see this, perhaps we'll be able to move a bit closer to a world in which men and women get to share all the good things in life, equally.
 
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blessedwife318

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It was never a question for me if I was going to change my last name. For me changing my last name was part of becoming one with my husband. It was also showing respect for him by taking his last name. Of course I'm also an anti feminist so I can not imagine doing something that is so associated with the feminist movement like not taking my husband last name or hyphenating my last name. Of course I also find it ironic that feminist insist in keeping their father's name who they did not choose over their husband's who they did choose.
 
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Albion

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Hoping to get both male and female perspectives, but I will say I am more of a traditionalist and spoke to my now wife about this well before I popped the question, but why do people do hyphenated last names?

I was always taught, being from the South I guess, that the woman would take her husband's last name and then move her last name to be her middle name. My wife on the other hand legally kept her full name and just added my last name to the end of hers, but officially, on paper at least, her last name is not hyphenated and was changed to mine. Just curious about people's thought process around this.
I see a hyphenated last name as faintly pretentious or as an attempt to be fashionable. It confuses people and never works well when a name is computerized, such as on government forms. It's also more common among certain nationalities and ethnic groups, so you may be suggesting that you are part of one them if you adopt this form.

Personally, if there's a strong desire not to conform to the usual style of taking the husband's last name, I'd rather the wife just kept her maiden name. It's simpler and more easily accepted IMHO...and I don't feel that it's any less respectful of the husband (or however you want to word that) than using a hyphenated name.
 
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ValleyGal

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So when I see modern day feminists, I tend to think of that (assuming they are men hating).

This is what I find so offensive about your comments. Your comments are based on this one huge, sweeping misguided, misinformed assumption that feminists are men-hating. As Jack pointed out, they are a very, very small minority. I have never met one man-hating feminist, and believe me, I know a lot of extreme feminists (my entire alumni cohort were hardcore feminists, and not one hated men). If anything, all my courses included the effect that women's movements have on men.

About names, it is not a "feminist" movement so much as I believe a professional or identity one. Anyone can change their name. After my identity was stolen, I changed my name in an attempt to protect my credit rating from further assault. I did it before I married my husband, and did not want to return to my maiden name because I no longer found my identity in them. So yeah, anyone can change their name at any time, men and women alike. No one is obligated to keep their birth name, or take their husband's name. And I am totally offended for being accused of thinking men are controlling just because I chose to keep the name on my birth certificate.

As for becoming one, that goes with the vow I made to my husband on our wedding day and in my heart every day since. I have the integrity to keep my word, and that has nothing to do with sharing the same last name. I am no less committed or respectful just because I kept my own name. In fact, keeping my own name shows the identity that I bring to the marriage to make it what it is, just as much as my husband's good name brings many strengths to the marriage as well.
 
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Dave-W

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I see a hyphenated last name as faintly pretentious or as an attempt to be fashionable.
In my home town there were 2 prominent families with similar sounding names; the Rhodes (Rodie) and the RotiRotis. (Rotie Rotie) If they were to marry and hyphenate it would have been a Rhode-RotiRoti.

IMO it could get quite confusing several generations out. If a Smith-Jones marries a Hatfield-McCoy (and they hyphenate) it would result in a Smith-Jones-Hatfield-McCoy. And had my parents hyphenated and I married the Rhode-RotiRoti, my kid marries the previous group you would have a Smith-Jones-Hatfield-McCoy-Waggoner-Williams-Rhode-RotiRoti.

Talk about unwieldy.
 
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JackRT

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In my home town there were 2 prominent families with similar sounding names; the Rhodes (Rodie) and the RotiRotis. (Rotie Rotie) If they were to marry and hyphenate it would have been a Rhode-RotiRoti.

IMO it could get quite confusing several generations out. If a Smith-Jones marries a Hatfield-McCoy (and they hyphenate) it would result in a Smith-Jones-Hatfield-McCoy. And had my parents hyphenated and I married the Rhode-RotiRoti, my kid marries the previous group you would have a Smith-Jones-Hatfield-McCoy-Waggoner-Williams-Rhode-RotiRoti.

Talk about unwieldy.

I see your point. Robert Loblaw is known to his friends as Bob. However Bob Loblaw is rather unfortunate. ;)
 
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Joyful Mama

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That is because "last names" as we know them were not used at that time. So you cannot use the bible to either support or condemn the practice.

It all boils down to custom and tradition. And those customs and traditions vary from culture to culture. The idea of a wife taking her husband's last name is a western European tradition. In other cultures the wife keeps her "maiden" name. They may claim it is a Christian tradition but that is really not true.

It has seemed to me (personal observation) that the hyphenated last name is more popular in England than the US.

Exactly. It's pretty popular in Australia to hyphenate or keep your maiden name as well. I know some husbands who have hyphenated their last name as well.

Much of what is claimed to be "Christian" is actually nothing more than societal norms which differ throughout the world.

Exactly!
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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Well I can admit being a online alot I run across MANY pretty nasty extreme feminists at non-christian sites. So my view is maybe a bit skewed by that. Thinking about the name thing some more really if a wife wants to she can legally change her name at any time. So if my wife chose to do so that would not bother me. Although I think it could lead to confusion by those who ask why we aren't Mr and Mrs <last name>. Like I said though my wife does have her last name as her middle name here in the US. I had no issues with it and told her it was probably a good idea so people would know who she was back where she was from. But yes in the end no one is obligated to take anyones name and its fine if they don't want to really.
 
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LinkH

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Hoping to get both male and female perspectives, but I will say I am more of a traditionalist and spoke to my now wife about this well before I popped the question, but why do people do hyphenated last names?

I was always taught, being from the South I guess, that the woman would take her husband's last name and then move her last name to be her middle name. My wife on the other hand legally kept her full name and just added my last name to the end of hers, but officially, on paper at least, her last name is not hyphenated and was changed to mine. Just curious about people's thought process around this.

It's a cultural thing. In some cultures, they don't change the wife's last name. In our, English heritage culture, it's a really symbolic thing.

We didn't legally change my wife's last name on all our paperwork for a long time because we had a visa under her maiden name, we were overseas, and when we had her maiden name on the green card because it was on other paperwork, it costs $300 or $400 or so to change a name on a greencard. We changed it (about the same price in our state) when we renewed the greencard. I probably did it all wrong. I should have asked for a visa in her new last name before 9/11. Who knew? After that, I didn't want to mess with immigration. She had a visa to go to the US. She was really wanting my last name on all the paperwork after we'd been living in the US for a while.

If I were young and dating an American woman who didn't want to take my last name, that would be a major red flag for me. Chances are, it would signal she has a totally different idea of the roles of men and women, etc. than I do. And it wouldn't be a good match. If she sees marriage as her joining my family, my clan, being my help-meet, then she shouldn't have a problem taking my last name. Keeping her own last name is trying to project some kind of sense of autonomy or independence from me... maybe. It's may signal a lack of acceptance of Biblical patriarchy as well. It could also signal a lack of commitment to marriage, even, if she didn't want to bother the paperwork in case she decided to change it back. I suppose there are some last names women don't want. If her first name and her last name combine to form some kind of dirty joke, that could be another reason.

I did have a church friend whose father's last name was 'Brown' and he and her mother hyphenated their last name when they married because 'Brown' was so generic and there were so many of them in the phone book. She didn't seem to be from a 'liberal' persuasion, but I'm not that familiar with their denomination.

What if everyone did the hyphenated last name thing? Joe Smith-Hasslehoff marries Sally Judson-Rubenowitz. So what is their new last name? Smith-Hasslehoff-Judson-Rubenowitz? Judson-Rubenowitz-Smith-Hasslehoff.

Btw, I thought the tradition allowed a woman to choose either her maiden name or her middle name as her new middle name.
 
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JackRT

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It's may signal a lack of acceptance of Biblical patriarchy as well.

One can't accept or not accept biblical patriarchy. It is an historical fact. Biblical patriarchy is just as evil as any other form of patriarchy. In fact, I regard patriarchy as just about the worst evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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So patriarchy is more evil then what Hitler did to the Jews? I mean thats like comparing a paper cut to a limb being cut off. And if some feel that is the biggest problem in the world then they must not watch the news. In our marriage we are equals. But there is some degree of me being responsible as the husband when it comes to some things. My wife and I talk about everything. No one forces her to do anything and nor does she force me. Doesn't mean we don't have our differences. I worry things like arguing about a last name leads to other things like "Why should we even marry? Why not just live together, it will mean its cheaper to live that way!". Actually we've met many older couples who live that way now. They are not married but live together, have sex, have kids...etc. The more we try to change things, the more we break the system and the more we go against the bible. BTW yes I realize the name thing is not in the bible.

Just the point of it all. Again the devil loves chaos in relationships. Its just more fuel for the churches to argue with each other over what is right/wrong. Hence more divisions will happen amongst christians.
 
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heliumskylark

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I've never heard of a woman taking her maiden name as her middle name. That's kind of a nice tradition. Then does she end up with two middle names or does she drop the middle name she was given at birth (if she was given a middle name at birth)? A couple years ago (true story) I had a friend by the last name of Bird who married a man by the last name of Coop. We *begged* her to hyphenate but she was having none of it! Such a missed comedy opportunity :tearsofjoy:
 
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Albion

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I've never heard of a woman taking her maiden name as her middle name.
Hillary Rodham Clinton sound familiar?

Then does she end up with two middle names or does she drop the middle name she was given at birth
Almost always this is what she does.
 
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heliumskylark

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Hillary Rodham Clinton sound familiar?

Oh I just assumed that was the middle name she was given at birth :oops:
In my defence I'm not American (or old enough to remember when she got married) and lots of American given names - though often lovely - do sometimes sound like surnames to British ears! Jackson, Cooper, Porter, River...
I think it's a nice tradition to keep your maiden name as your middle name - it wasn't a dig.
 
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Dave-W

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Then does she end up with two middle names or does she drop the middle name she was given at birth (if she was given a middle name at birth)?
I have heard of both being done.
 
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Larniavc

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Hoping to get both male and female perspectives, but I will say I am more of a traditionalist and spoke to my now wife about this well before I popped the question, but why do people do hyphenated last names?

I was always taught, being from the South I guess, that the woman would take her husband's last name and then move her last name to be her middle name. My wife on the other hand legally kept her full name and just added my last name to the end of hers, but officially, on paper at least, her last name is not hyphenated and was changed to mine. Just curious about people's thought process around this.

My wife and I hyphenated our last names and we both changed our name to that.

We did it because we see ourselves as a team.
 
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Albion

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Oh I just assumed that was the middle name she was given at birth :oops:
In my defence I'm not American (or old enough to remember when she got married) and lots of American given names - though often lovely - do sometimes sound like surnames to British ears! Jackson, Cooper, Porter, River...
I think it's a nice tradition to keep your maiden name as your middle name - it wasn't a dig.
I understood all right; I was just surprised to have you say that you'd not heard of such a thing before. It's actually pretty common--at least it has been here, and in the past half-century or so.

At the moment, we're also into a different phenomenon, which you touched upon. That is the trend towards giving boys more formal sounding names, usually surnames such as you mentioned above, although some are simply contrived to sound that way. It seems that no one wants a Bill or Bob anymore, and the fascination with Biblical names may be waning, too. Now they want Harrisons and Hunters, etc.
 
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