Hymns: Is anyone else as annoyed as . . .

[ElElohe]

Is anyone else as annoyed as my wife (and I agree with her mostly ) when, in church, you aren't led from up front to sing all of the verses of a hymn? But skip some (usually verse three).

My wife has also observed that verse three (or whichever is skipped) is usually the one talking about MISSIONS. Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

A lot of hymns where verses are skipped are a very intricate storyline. Taking a verse out discombobbles the story. Speaking in generalities.

 

[jayswife29]

I know in my church, I have noticed the verses they leave out have to do with the blood of Christ. Umm, isn't that the whole reason we are there?

 

[Yitzchak]

I have seen this done as well. It seems common practice to ammend the hymns this way.

 

[karla]

I've seen it done before, however, in my church we sing every verse of every song.

 

[bjh]

Okay, I'll bite.

Among other things, I'm a songleader at my church. When I lead the singing, there are times that I do skip verses of songs. A lot of times it's because the announcements went long or something of that sort. At our church, the emphasis isn't so much on the music as it is on the ministry that follows.

Of course, with that said, I try to pick out songs (or verses of songs) based on the following criteria: 1) Biblical accuracy; and at least one of the following 2) Relation to the Sermon topic; and/or 3) those that People know better than other verses or songs.

Realizing that hymns are not inspired (as is Scripture - 2 Tim 3:16), it isn't surprising that there are some "weaker verses" than others. So there are times that I exercise my "songleader's prerogative" and focus in on the stronger verses.

Am I "anti-missions"? Absolutely not. I've even spent time in the Philippines. I still have friends over there, as well as Papua New Guinea, and other places too.

With that said, it is nice to see that people actually do pay attention to the words of the hymns rather than just mindlessly follow along with the songleader.

B. J. H.

"What can wash away my sin? What can make me whole again? Oh! Precious is the flow that makes me white as snow. No other fount I know."

 

[sbbqb7n16]

. . .Among other things, I'm a songleader at my church. When I lead the singing, there are times that I do skip verses of songs. A lot of times it's because the announcements went long or something of that sort. At our church, the emphasis isn't so much on the music as it is on the ministry that follows. . .

Yes but it is also important to minister unto the Lord as we see Samuel did in 1 Samuel 3:1. Ministry unto the Lord should be of utmost importance as well...

Realizing that hymns are not inspired (as is Scripture - 2 Tim 3:16), it isn't surprising that there are some "weaker verses" than others. So there are times that I exercise my "songleader's prerogative" and focus in on the stronger verses. . .

But the Psalms were hymns.... and now they are Scripture.

Who says what is strong and what isn't though? Apparently some think that the strongest verses are left out as unfortunately you showed in your response below. I don't mean to rag on you... but you gotta admit that sometimes there is REALLY good stuff that is left out.

"What can wash away my sin? What can make me whole again? Oh! Precious is the flow that makes me white as snow. No other fount I know."

Mannnn!! You left out the best part....

"NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!"

You gotta have that part or else the rest is meaningless...

 

[JillLars]

I highly doubt that the song leaders have some big conspiracy to purposely leave out certain verses of songs. I was a song leader in my old church, and we would leave out the third verse and proceed directly to the fourth simply to shorten up the songs, the forth verse on most hymms ususally leads to a special ending, so that's why they skip the third and go directly to the end rather than including the third and skipping the fourth if that makes any sense.

 

[ElElohe]

I highly doubt that the song leaders have some big conspiracy to purposely leave out certain verses of songs. I was a song leader in my old church, and we would leave out the third verse and proceed directly to the fourth simply to shorten up the songs, the forth verse on most hymms ususally leads to a special ending, so that's why they skip the third and go directly to the end rather than including the third and skipping the fourth if that makes any sense.

All right! Now we're moving!

Song leaders don't have a conspircy. BJH, I didn't mean for anyone to bit necessarily; I've asked this in person to other worship leaders. And gotten mostly the same answer. I don't think it's the modern song leaders that are at fault, although I might fault some of them for not noticing!

More to the not-a-conspiracy, most hymnals have little arrows marking the hymns you are SUPPOSED to sing. Likely, this is on account of a previous generations editing . . . or along those lines.

This brings up another issue. Why must we be so time-concious? Some of the best services I've ever been in are those that have gone looooong. Sure people have to get to lunch and are hungry and of all people -I- hate to sit for extended periods of time.

I encourage you to worship with another culture. I have worshipped with Indians, Africans, Europeans etc (in college) and the experience is truly enlightening.

 

[bjh]

Yes but it is also important to minister unto the Lord as we see Samuel did in 1 Samuel 3:1. Ministry unto the Lord should be of utmost importance as well...

I agree 100%. I would take it a step further. "ministry unto the Lord" is more than the words of a hymn (either sung or spoken). Question for you... Did Samuel's ministry include singing?

But the Psalms were hymns.... and now they are Scripture.

This raises two questions...
1) Were the psalms "hymns" before they were Scripture?
This is probably a bad place to say this, but I belive that the Holy Spirit spoke in a special way through David and thus the Psalms are God-breathed. We cannot say the same thing about John Newton, Ira Sankey, Bill & Gloria Gaither, Dottie Rambo, or Jack Hayford.

2) What's the difference between psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs? Is there a difference? A good place to start would be Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16.

Who says what is strong and what isn't though? Apparently some think that the strongest verses are left out as unfortunately you showed in your response below. I don't mean to rag on you... but you gotta admit that sometimes there is REALLY good stuff that is left out.

Sometimes the "good stuff" is implicit. For example, did you have any doubt as to what the song I quoted was referring to?

Two more questions and I'm done for the night.
1) Have you ever compared the words of any particular hymn with what Scripture says?
2) Have you ever checked to see what verses of hymns were left out by the editors of your hymnal?
E. g. Does your "Amazing Grace" have 7 verses? Does your "And Can it Be/Amazing Love" have 6 verses? Okay, one more...Does your "Nothing but the Blood of Jesus" have 6 verses?

--B. J. H.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

I agree 100%. I would take it a step further. "ministry unto the Lord" is more than the words of a hymn (either sung or spoken). Question for you... Did Samuel's ministry include singing?

I don't know.... are you sure that it didn't? What would he sing anyways?

This raises two questions...
1) Were the psalms "hymns" before they were Scripture?
This is probably a bad place to say this, but I belive that the Holy Spirit spoke in a special way through David and thus the Psalms are God-breathed. We cannot say the same thing about John Newton, Ira Sankey, Bill & Gloria Gaither, Dottie Rambo, or Jack Hayford.

Yet it was the same Holy Spirit who works the same work through them as well. Is it only that pre-today music can be God-breathed? Or does He continue to do so?

2) What's the difference between psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs? Is there a difference? A good place to start would be Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16.

Well there must be a difference between what constitutes each, but they all serve the same purpose: glorifying God.

Sometimes the "good stuff" is implicit. For example, did you have any doubt as to what the song I quoted was referring to?

No but if you only sung that part of the song in church would the message the author wanted conveyed get across? Every mention of Christ's blood was removed from your post... and to some it seems that verses dealing very good stuff are just left out in the same way. You also assumed (correctly in my case) that I would know what was to be implied. Some people may not have known at all... and some people will never know what other great verses there are in our hymnals if we keep cutting them out.

Two more questions and I'm done for the night.
1) Have you ever compared the words of any particular hymn with what Scripture says?
2) Have you ever checked to see what verses of hymns were left out by the editors of your hymnal?
E. g. Does your "Amazing Grace" have 7 verses? Does your "And Can it Be/Amazing Love" have 6 verses? Okay, one more...Does your "Nothing but the Blood of Jesus" have 6 verses?

--B. J. H.

1) Then why even bother to sing the ones that don't agree with Scripture in the first place?
2)Nope and I don't happen to have a hymnal on hand to check with... but I'll assure you I'd be rather annoyed if they left out a verse that really spoke to me and addressed right where I am in my walk...

as to your final questions... I have no idea No hymnal on hand. Sorry

 

[rotorhead]

My home church has often skipped a verse here and there, but it follows no set pattern in terms of content or numerical position. It always comes back to time constraints. That is what saddens me. I know there are some really strong Christians there, but it is disturbing, the whole idea that the service has a time limit. One of the best services I ever attended, at a different church, took more than two hours. I suspect the issue to be addressed at many churches is the notion that it has to end at noon.

 

[bjh]

I don't know.... are you sure that it didn't? What would he sing anyways?

My point is that we don't know what Samuel did. Singing isn't a requirement.

To answer your question "What would Samuel sing?" Probably Psalm 90 verses 1-6 and 13-17.

Yet it was the same Holy Spirit who works the same work through them as well. Is it only that pre-today music can be God-breathed? Or does He continue to do so?

Inspiration, in my understanding, applies to Scripture and only to Scripture. Hymns, aside from direct Scriptural quotations, at best, are either commentaries on the Bible, or they are paraphrases. They cannot be, and most certainly should not be confused with God's Word.
2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 3:15-16; Rev. 22:18-19

Well there must be a difference between what constitutes each, but they all serve the same purpose: glorifying God.

That's true. Some directly, some indirectly.

No but if you only sung that part of the song in church would the message the author wanted conveyed get across? Every mention of Christ's blood was removed from your post... and to some it seems that verses dealing very good stuff are just left out in the same way. You also assumed (correctly in my case) that I would know what was to be implied. Some people may not have known at all... and some people will never know what other great verses there are in our hymnals if we keep cutting them out.

"Precious is the flow that makes me white as snow...no other fount I know." What else could that refer to? My point is this. You admit that you know what was implied. Skipping verses here and there is not the end of the world. At the same time, please realize that had this been a discussion with an unbeliever, had I used that song at all, I would not have skipped "Nothing But the Blood of Jesus".

Just because one can sing a hymn all the way through doesn't make them a "good Christian". It doesn't make them a Christian at all. It says nothing about their walk with the Lord. How many unbelievers know all the words to at least the first verse of "Amazing Grace"? How many know at least some of the words to Handel's "Messiah"? What good does that do if they're not believers. On the other hand, are they required reading for every believer? No, of course not.

You see, the question is not "What does the author want to get across?" but rather "What does God want to get across for today?"

1) Then why even bother to sing the ones that don't agree with Scripture in the first place?

Some verses are better than others.

2)Nope and I don't happen to have a hymnal on hand to check with... but I'll assure you I'd be rather annoyed if they left out a verse that really spoke to me and addressed right where I am in my walk...
as to your final questions... I have no idea No hymnal on hand. Sorry

Ahh, that excuse might have worked at one time, but in this day and age, with http://www.cyberhymnal.org at our fingertips, you've got a little work to do.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

My point is that we don't know what Samuel did. Singing isn't a requirement.

To answer your question "What would Samuel sing?" Probably Psalm 90 verses 1-6 and 13-17.

Except that the Psalms weren't yet written... That was my point...

Inspiration, in my understanding, applies to Scripture and only to Scripture. Hymns, aside from direct Scriptural quotations, at best, are either commentaries on the Bible, or they are paraphrases. They cannot be, and most certainly should not be confused with God's Word.
2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 3:15-16; Rev. 22:18-19

2 Tim 3:16 -- Written in Paul's letter that was not considered Scripture at the time but yet now is...

2 Pet 3:15-16 -- Written in reference to distorting what the Scripture already clearly said... and has nothing to do with outside material...

Rev 22:18-19 -- Only written in regards to the contents of the book of Revelation, not for the Bible as the "completed work" that we know today.

If you see my point... all the references you gave were not Scripture when originally written... but now are. The hymnal not originally Scripture... in the future I don't know. I'm not God.

"Precious is the flow that makes me white as snow...no other fount I know." What else could that refer to? My point is this. You admit that you know what was implied. Skipping verses here and there is not the end of the world. At the same time, please realize that had this been a discussion with an unbeliever, had I used that song at all, I would not have skipped "Nothing But the Blood of Jesus".

I realize that... but churches are filled with unbelievers all the same...

Just because one can sing a hymn all the way through doesn't make them a "good Christian". It doesn't make them a Christian at all. It says nothing about their walk with the Lord. How many unbelievers know all the words to at least the first verse of "Amazing Grace"? How many know at least some of the words to Handel's "Messiah"? What good does that do if they're not believers. On the other hand, are they required reading for every believer? No, of course not.

Nor did I (nor anyone else in here) say that it did. I just hold that we are missing out on terrific terrific stuff by skipping over verses for the sake of time.

You see, the question is not "What does the author want to get across?" but rather "What does God want to get across for today?"

Touche` That is the better question...

Some verses are better than others.

Doesn't answer the question...

Ahh, that excuse might have worked at one time, but in this day and age, with http://www.cyberhymnal.org at our fingertips, you've got a little work to do.

I still can't be held responsible for an Editor's mistake. But I can tell you I don't like it if they did take verses out. That's just not cool.

 

[ElElohe]

NPR had a spot that can be listened to at this link:

http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=2&prgDate=4-Aug-2003

called Commentary: hymns

 

[ZiSunka]

Is anyone else as annoyed as my wife (and I agree with her mostly ) when, in church, you aren't led from up front to sing all of the verses of a hymn? But skip some (usually verse three).

My wife has also observed that verse three (or whichever is skipped) is usually the one talking about MISSIONS. Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

A lot of hymns where verses are skipped are a very intricate storyline. Taking a verse out discombobbles the story. Speaking in generalities.

I have a friend who says he's glad he isn't the third verse of a hymn, because they NEVER get any attention!

It's a time thing, mostly. There's only so much time in church on Sunday morning, and a lot of churches try to pack too many songs into too little time.