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Hydrological Sorting and the Fossil Record

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shernren

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First, it explains the size, depth, and variety of the strata.

Does it? How do you get from a flood:

eolian processes
glacial geology
evaporites
paleosols
and subaerial igneous rocks?

The Flood happened all over the planet, but it was nothing other than water and submarine volcanism. Water can only do so much - unless, of course, you are proposing a miracle floodwater outside the realm of science which can do anything and everything you could ever want it to do.
 
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Assyrian

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How long does it take for about a hundred meters of shale to be deposited under optimum conditions? I don't like the Twilight Zone. I want to see firm numbers.

How long does it take for mudstone to be deposited and lithified? Again, I want some concrete numbers. I'm sick of the Twilight Zone.
We need to ask how long it takes and how deep the water has to be. Laptoppop suggests silt was deposited and then the flood receded temporarily for animal to leave footprints in the layers.

Shale takes a long time in very still water for silt to fall out of suspension. Presumably the deeper the silt laden water the sooner this will happen. You can have shallower water, but you need to keep bringing in more silt rich water, very very very slowly. This takes much longer.

But the deeper the water the stranger it is to propose the flood water receded after dumping hundreds of meters of silt, allowing animals to scurry back dig their burrows and leave tracks.
 
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laptoppop

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It seems like I am not allowed to use even a mildly developed model of flood deposition -- that unless I use a ridiculously simplistic model I am not representing YEC. That's baloney, folks.

The flood was not a simplistic event, and the results from the flood are not simplistic.

I gave several different factors that all contribute to where an animal might end up in a particular location. The responses almost invariably try to restrict me to one or two factors. I also noted these factors were statistical in nature - that anomalies are likely and predicted. To remind folks:
The fossils in these layers are better described as being sorted by multiple factors working together.
The first factor is ecological community. While sometimes we see larger distance transport, for the most part the fossils in a given area represent the ecocommunity of that area.

The next factor is habitat. It is reasonable to expect that sea bottom dwelling critters would often be buried low in the strata, while birds, for example, would be buried higher if at all.

The next factor is motility. Something that is able to move, such as a sea turtle is likely to be higher than a snail. Humans are likely to often avoid it entirely and end up decaying instead of fossilizing -- in other words, just like we observe, we would expect few human remains.

The next factor is body characteristics -- size, weight, density, reaction to waterflow, etc.

It is important to note however, that I am describing statistical averages. Given the turbulent nature of the flood, one should not be surprised by different localized sorting.
I do not proclaim this to be a complete list of factors. Subduction (like quicksand effects), transporting of elements from one place to another due to currents, and a number of other elements would also affect it. One fairly new thought is that there were likely floating mats of vegetation and animals in the pre-flood world. These mats explain much, as in the depth of coal deposits, and interlayer burrows, etc.

I'm not sorry that a developed model explains the physical evidence -- isn't that what we are supposed to do?

I *am* sorry that I cannot answer point by point several different folks all at the same time. Each point deserves discussion, and indeed I know I can trust you to continue to bring them up. Of course, one frustration is that it seems like even after I answer a given point they still come up -- but I know some (many?) of you feel the same way towards me.

One poster talked about falsifying the evolutionary model by finding out of order fossils. Actually, out of order fossils are quite common. They are explained away in general terms, as opposed to the specific cases that I am supposed to answer. Out of order fossils are described in terms of overthrusts, underthrusts, strata contamination, etc. They exist, but they are rejected. Of course the classic case is the Lewis overthrust - a huge supposed out of order layering with insufficient grinding layer between the layers to explain the order.

In other words -- to my eyes, if the data does not fit the TOE, the data is rejected and explained away. I guess you are probably feeling the same way towards me. I would say that the accommodation and incorporation of the actual data is actually a normal part of examining/evaluating/maturing a particular model.
 
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busterdog

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It seems like I am not allowed to use even a mildly developed model of flood deposition -- that unless I use a ridiculously simplistic model I am not representing YEC. That's baloney, folks.

The flood was not a simplistic event, and the results from the flood are not simplistic.

Yes, it is pretty obviously a very distracting pattern of sniping on a model before it has been thought through. The opposition just says, oh well, we already thought that through and it is wrong.

Well, I don't see much evidence that anyone has lingered long enough on your model to think it through and weigh its advantages and disadvantages. And that makes this whole thing really hard to follow.

There really isn't any model of anything that can't be shot down in this battle of mental focus attrition.

However, you have given me lots to think about. Some interesting stuff.


The flood was not a simplistic event, and the results from the flood are not simplistic.

It is kind of funny that it takes an enormous amount of effort to model something like temperature in an ocean region or area of the atmosphere over a period of time. Then you add the behavior of living organism. And we are presuming that we can model the various catastrophes possibly lead up to, during and after a global flood.

There obviously are some interesting working hypotheses on both sides, but you wouldn't know it from the thread.

The very nature of the complexity you are referencing suggests that there is always a plausible refutation for every model. When that is the first button the post pushes, I know that this is not a discussion and little will be learned from it -- at least if you are assuming that a particular model is going to be fully explored and weighed.

News flash: the majority of honey bees in large areas of the US are gone and no one knows why. And we think we can define the behavior of a group of sea turtles during an global catastrophe?

I wonder whether this pattern of human debate and "exploration" was in mind when the creator wrote Genesis in the first place.
 
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busterdog

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We need to ask how long it takes and how deep the water has to be. Laptoppop suggests silt was deposited and then the flood receded temporarily for animal to leave footprints in the layers.

Shale takes a long time in very still water for silt to fall out of suspension. Presumably the deeper the silt laden water the sooner this will happen. You can have shallower water, but you need to keep bringing in more silt rich water, very very very slowly. This takes much longer.

There are a great many factors that determine the rate at which particulates seperate out, including the overall burden of particulates, chemical characteristics, and perhaps unknown conditions in the flood, such as charge and temperature.

Yes, this is a concern that you have raised, but there are many other factors. Also, what kind of silt are we talking about?
 
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busterdog

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Walt Brown has an interesting theory on this topic.
He says: "Liquefaction- associated with quicksand, earthquakes, and wave action-
played a major role in rapidly sorting sediments, plants, and animals during the flood."

Interesting. I hadn't thought about that angle. One more group of factors hard to account for!
 
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Mallon

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It seems like I am not allowed to use even a mildly developed model of flood deposition -- that unless I use a ridiculously simplistic model I am not representing YEC. That's baloney, folks.
What's baloney is the fact that you refuse to even reconsider your position when presented with solid evidence to the contrary. You have given ZERO examples in support of your Flood scenario, opting instead to appeal to ignorance. We have methodologically deconstructed your differential sorting mechanisms, and rather than concede the point, you continue to insist that the Flood was simply too complex to leave any discernible patterns. And you pretend this is science? This kind of rhetoric would never pass the muster in the science classroom.
Clearly, your only reason for holding to a global flood scenario is faith, which, again, I respect. But please don't pretend it's science. Even if your differential sorting factors acted in concert, they still would not produce the results we actually observe in the fossil record. I used the example of sea turtles because they contradict each of your sorting mechanisms. Thus, whether acting alone or together, they would still not explain the distribution of sea turtles.

I hope those reading this thread will recognize the ad hoc nature of laptoppop's arguments. Ad hoc has no place in science.
 
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Assyrian

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One poster talked about falsifying the evolutionary model by finding out of order fossils. Actually, out of order fossils are quite common. They are explained away in general terms, as opposed to the specific cases that I am supposed to answer. Out of order fossils are described in terms of overthrusts, underthrusts, strata contamination, etc. They exist, but they are rejected. Of course the classic case is the Lewis overthrust - a huge supposed out of order layering with insufficient grinding layer between the layers to explain the order.
What is meant by 'insufficuient grinding layer'? If there is a grinding layer then it means there was grinding going on between the layer above and the layer below. One section of rock moved across the other grinding its way across. As far as I can understand 'insufficuient grinding layer' simply means the creationist who examined it could not deny that a grinding layer existed, where conventional geology said there should be one. All they could do was complain that it wasn't as big enough :scratch: If a grinding layer shows one section of rock moved over the other, how is the overthrust evidence of fossils being laid own in the wrong order?

If there was overthust why do creationists keep quoting bad examples?
 
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Assyrian

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There are a great many factors that determine the rate at which particulates seperate out, including the overall burden of particulates, chemical characteristics, and perhaps unknown conditions in the flood, such as charge and temperature.

Yes, this is a concern that you have raised, but there are many other factors. Also, what kind of silt are we talking about?
I am not a geologist but I think shale is about 2/3 clay which is particles less than 0.004mm. It needs calm water for particles this size to come out of suspension. But you need to keep bringing water in with more clay. We need vast amounts of water carrying the sediment to move in to a very wide area. but then it needs to slow down so the clay can precipitate out. It cannot all happen with one large body of muddy water or you would get sorting of particle size, larger particles to the bottom finer particle at the top. Or simply have it all falling out in one go as mud. Shale is made up of fine layers. You need a geography that will take the moving water and slow it down for the particles to fall out. Now a shallow sea fed by alluvial rivers would do just this. But how can a rising flood that is destroying all the geography in the region, produce areas that keep taking in muddy water, at the much faster rate the flood demands, slow it down to almost stopped long enough for sedimentation and then keep bringing in more muddy water?

 
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shernren

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One poster talked about falsifying the evolutionary model by finding out of order fossils. Actually, out of order fossils are quite common. They are explained away in general terms, as opposed to the specific cases that I am supposed to answer. Out of order fossils are described in terms of overthrusts, underthrusts, strata contamination, etc. They exist, but they are rejected. Of course the classic case is the Lewis overthrust - a huge supposed out of order layering with insufficient grinding layer between the layers to explain the order.

More Twilight Zone talk, laptoppop. Remember this: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=31861767&postcount=46 ?

I show you a site with 6 close-ups and 2 wide-angle views of intense deformation at the Lewis thrust. You respond by saying "no, that's just not enough deformation" - without ever giving any reasoning why it isn't enough or any counter-evidence such as any pictures or descriptions of locations along the fault where there is no deformation. I could give you another description of the deformation all along the Lewis overthrust:

"Parts of Glacier National Park and the adjacent areas are in the northern disturbed belt of Montana. The area east of the mountains contains thrust-faulted and folded Upper Cretaceous strata; it is equivalent to the Foothills structural province in southern Alberta. The area southeast of the park contains thrust-faulted and folded Jurassic and Cretaceous rocks, which locally are transected by northeasterly trending normal faults. These strataplunge northwest beneath the Lewis thrust plateand are not exposed in southern Alberta and British Columbia, except possibly in the Haig Brook and Cate Creek windows in the Lewis plate in British Columbia. The Lewis thrust plate is deformed by numerous folds and small normal and thrust faults. The major structure in the plate is a northwesterly trending, doubly plunging syncline. The largest normal fault is the Blacktail fault, which extends northwestward into British Columbia as the Flathead fault. West of it are other northwetsterly trending normal faults. The measured minimum easterly translation of the Lewis is 15 mi (24 km), but it may have moved at least 40 mi (64.4 km). The park is in a southwesterly trending, structurally low area that is bounded on the north and south by southwest-trending structures."

from http://gondwanaresearch.com/hp/crefaqs.htm ; would you hand-wave that away too?
 
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laptoppop

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Regarding the Lewis overthrust:
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:pHeNQNcrCMgJ:www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/12[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]10.htm+lewis+overthrust+grinding+layer&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

NOT the conditions we would expect if miles and miles of tons and tons of rock slid over fragile shale.

New URL to bypass CF's overactive profanity filter:
http://tinyurl.com/23tfpu

Note that this is to Google's cache - the original article appears to be temporarily offline.


 
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laptoppop

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Regarding shale formation - it has been demonstrated that those are not the only conditions that shale can form. Also, Guy Berthault's experiments have shown a natural hyrdrological sorting of a sample of grand canyon shale.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/TJ/v11/i2/nature.asp
 
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laptoppop

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What's baloney is the fact that you refuse to even reconsider your position when presented with solid evidence to the contrary. You have given ZERO examples in support of your Flood scenario, opting instead to appeal to ignorance. We have methodologically deconstructed your differential sorting mechanisms, and rather than concede the point, you continue to insist that the Flood was simply too complex to leave any discernible patterns. And you pretend this is science? This kind of rhetoric would never pass the muster in the science classroom.
Clearly, your only reason for holding to a global flood scenario is faith, which, again, I respect. But please don't pretend it's science. Even if your differential sorting factors acted in concert, they still would not produce the results we actually observe in the fossil record. I used the example of sea turtles because they contradict each of your sorting mechanisms. Thus, whether acting alone or together, they would still not explain the distribution of sea turtles.

I hope those reading this thread will recognize the ad hoc nature of laptoppop's arguments. Ad hoc has no place in science.

Deconstructed? Not hardly. I've been thrown a pile of examples, way more than one guy can respond to in a reasonable amount of time, and I'm trying to show that for the most part they can easily be accommodated with a reasonably non-simplistic view of a *global* catastrophic event with huge localized variations. This is not ad-hoc -- its just my attempt to respond to as much as I can in a timely manner when there are lots of folks throwing things against the wall to see if they will stick. I do refuse to adopt a simplistic model of deposition or of composition of the flood, and insist that the model predicts a wide variation of conditions both spatially and temporally.

I do apologize for my lack of time - indeed even if it were a full time job, I could spend a few years responding deeply to each thing thrown my way. Fortunately, most of them are easily dispatched by a proper understanding of the flood model.

However, there remains bigger issues. Either the flood model or the TOE model can be adapted to accept the physical evidence. The raw TOE model does not predict out of order layers, but they can be handled if you decide the layers must have moved into position after formation. The flood model can easily handle extreme variations in conditions across the globe.

If both models can explain the physical evidence, how should we choose between them? (I know, I know -- you would probably not agree that the flood model completely explains the evidence anymore than I think the TOE model does) I would suggest that the model that matches the straight peshat understanding of Genesis should be the accepted one.
 
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shernren

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I'll summarize the Pathlights claims instead of quoting verbatim, if that's alright with everyone here.

1. The Lewis Overthrust is way too big, hence it couldn't have happened. Hurrah for the good old argument from incredulity.

2. The Lewis Overthrust sits on top of undisturbed shale. Firstly, if this was true, it would raise problems for creationists as well! Limestone is a sedimentary rock made out of carbonate shells secreted by marine plankton; their particle sizes are much larger than the size of shale particles, and hence by any creationist mechanism, limestone should be deposited under shale - not on top of it! The creationists have an "out-of-order" problem of their own.

Well, there is a layer of highly fractured shale below the limestone, which is important - and which, by the by, creationists need to explain! However, the "shale" observed by Kulp was in fact fault gouge, composed of the finely-ground rock created by the movement, which is evidence for overthrusting, not against it! As for Lammerts' observation, some good sources have noted that his observation area was actually 200ft. above the fault, not at the fault itself; nevertheless, what he did observe was probably fault gouge if he had been looking at the right place.

3. There is no debris, therefore the Lewis Overthrust was not moved. Now, what would a creationist claim be without a quotemine? The Ross and Rozak quotation: "Such a slab moving over ground, as is now believed to have existed, should have scarred and broken the hills and have itself been broken to a greater or less extent, depending on local conditions. No evidence of either of these things has been found." sounds very different in context:

"The fracture zone that constitutes the Lewis overthrust was inclined upward in an east and northeast direction toward the surface (reference to figure omitted). If it had reached the surface, the forward end of the moving slab of rock above the fracture zone would have been abruptly freed from the resistances that had retarded its progress underground. Motion for a time might have been rapid, comparable with the motion which takes place at the broken ends of a slab of concrete that fails in a testing machine. The eastern end of the overthrust block might have rushed forward tumultuously. If such a thing had occurred, the rock at the eastern end of the moving mass, freed from the confinement from all sides that had formerly held it together, would have broken up; as it advanced over the surface of the ground the edge would have become a great pile of rubble. Masses of broken rock assigned such an origin have been found in front of overthrusts in other regions. The absence of rubble or breccia is among the compelling reasons that have forced the abandonment of the long-held idea that the Lewis overthrust emerged at the surface and moved over a plain near the front of the present mountains. Those who held that idea assumed that the ground surface was then level enough so that the overthrust slab could move over it readily. They also thought that the relatively flat surfaces that cap ridges east of the park are remnants of the nearly level topography over which the Lewis overthrust moved after it had reached the surface of the ground.
If the advancing slab of rock had been pushed out into the air, the confining pressures that held it together would have tended to be dissipated. Such a slab moving over ground as is now believed to have existed should have scarred and broken the hills and have itself been broken to a greater or less extent, depending on local conditions. No evidence of either of these things has been found. Further, the flat uplands are regarded now as remnants of a surface much younger than, and not directly related to, the overthrust." (Ross and Rezak, 1959,p. 424) [bold emphasis added; italics is the section quoted by Pathlights]

Basically, if the rocks moving in the Lewis Overthrust had emerged to the surface, the abrupt release of pressure would have essentially exploded (to abuse the term) the rock - and the kind of debris and breccia that would have created has not been observed. This means that the Lewis Overthrust happened subterraneanly, instead of over the surface of the ground; indeed, there is a lot of general evidence for massive deformation in the general area as I cited:

Parts of Glacier National Park and the adjacent areas are in the northern disturbed belt of Montana. The area east of the mountains contains thrust-faulted and folded Upper Cretaceous strata; it is equivalent to the Foothills structural province in southern Alberta. The area southeast of the park contains thrust-faulted and folded Jurassic and Cretaceous rocks, which locally are transected by northeasterly trending normal faults. These strataplunge northwest beneath the Lewis thrust plateand are not exposed in southern Alberta and British Columbia, except possibly in the Haig Brook and Cate Creek windows in the Lewis plate in British Columbia. The Lewis thrust plate is deformed by numerous folds and small normal and thrust faults. The major structure in the plate is a northwesterly trending, doubly plunging syncline. The largest normal fault is the Blacktail fault, which extends northwestward into British Columbia as the Flathead fault. West of it are other northwetsterly trending normal faults. The measured minimum easterly translation of the Lewis is 15 mi (24 km), but it may have moved at least 40 mi (64.4 km). The park is in a southwesterly trending, structurally low area that is bounded on the north and south by southwest-trending structures.

4. The Lewis Overthrust is way too hard to move, so it couldn't have been moved. Note that besides a completely out-of-the-blue citation by Terzighi, there is no other collateral proof given. What do scientists actually say?

"We have developed a simple model to evaluate the gravity gliding of nappes in sedimentary terranes. Three factors play a critical role in the model: (1) the ratio of horizontal to vertical stress, (2) the rate of fluid flow to the detachment horizon, and (3) the permeability of lithologies immediately above that horizon. If the ratio of horizontal to vertical stress is less than one, this ratio limits the maximum available pore pressure through hydrofracture. Existing in-situ stress measurements suggest that vertical hydrofracturing rather than gravity gliding might be the result of elevated pore pressures, unless a low-strength cap-rock exists. If the ratio exceeds one, a relatively simple equation relates the 'cap-rock' permeability and fluid flow necessary for gravity gliding. Effective cap-rock permeabilities less than 10-4 to 10-5 md are required for gravity gliding in a sedimentary basin. Based on available in-situ permeability measurements, only shales and evaporites could have sufficiently low permeabilities on a regional scale." (emphasis added)

... and guess what the Lewis Overthrust sits on? Shale!

5. Since we can tell you what layers the Lewis Overthrust contains, you should trust everything else we say about it. At least, that must be what their point is in listing all those layers, because it serves no other purpose than to undermine the creationist position. Argillite is a clay sediment much like shale, and limestone is limestone. According to the creationist position, limestone should be found beneath shale, since limestone is made of bigger particulates (assuming either can be deposited at all). Instead, we have alternating layers of argillite and limestone! How does a flood deposit that? What sort of local conditions can you postulate for that?

The conclusion: even if the creationist assessment of the Lewis Overthrust were correct, it would pose at least as much difficulty to a global Flood as it does to conventional geology, if not more. But the creationist assessment is wrong!
 
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laptoppop

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The presence of shale underneath other strata causes no problem for the flood model. How many times do I have to repeat myself? Changing conditions in a flood change what and how things are eroded or deposited. It is overly simplistic to imagine a single monolithic deposition event.

Yes, some parts of the shale have some deformations -- but the Lewis overthrust is up to 3 MILES thick -- its HUGE -- and the amount of deformation in the fragile shale is nowhere what one would expect for such a huge movement. There is also the little problem of no debris at the "front" of the "overthrust" like there would be if one part scraped over the other.

Disagreement between scientists, whether conventional or creationists is good and healthy -- it is a natural normal part of investigation. That's how things proceed and knowledge grows. To imply it shows a problem with the YEC model overall is just plain mistaken.
 
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Deamiter

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The presence of shale underneath other strata causes no problem for the flood model. How many times do I have to repeat myself? Changing conditions in a flood change what and how things are eroded or deposited. It is overly simplistic to imagine a single monolithic deposition event.
Simple to say, "you just don't understand the complex conditions." It'd be slightly more convincing if SOMEBODY would bother to propose a set of conditions that could produce such a deposition so the model could be scrutinized by other scientists. As it is, there is no model -- just wild speculation that a global flood can explain everything we'll ever find.
Yes, some parts of the shale have some deformations -- but the Lewis overthrust is up to 3 MILES thick -- its HUGE -- and the amount of deformation in the fragile shale is nowhere what one would expect for such a huge movement. There is also the little problem of no debris at the "front" of the "overthrust" like there would be if one part scraped over the other.
Brilliant -- apparently you didn't bother to read shernen's post in which he included the following:
Masses of broken rock assigned such an origin have been found in front of overthrusts in other regions. The absence of rubble or breccia is among the compelling reasons that have forced the abandonment of the long-held idea that the Lewis overthrust emerged at the surface and moved over a plain near the front of the present mountains.

One would expect debris to be found if the overthrust hit the surface, but no scientist would expect debris if it didn't hit the surface. Interesting how the "flood model" seems to predict an absence of debris yet debris is found in a multitude of other overthrusts that did reach the surface.
Disagreement between scientists, whether conventional or creationists is good and healthy -- it is a natural normal part of investigation. That's how things proceed and knowledge grows. To imply it shows a problem with the YEC model overall is just plain mistaken.
As far as I can tell, there are only ten or so creationists who study geology and publish any attempts to model what is found. Among scientists, evolution and standard models of geological formation and deposition have withstood hundreds of years of scrutiny and now the majority of tens of thousands of geologists accept the vast majority of previous work and largely add to -- not argue about overturning each other's contributions.

Discussion and debate is very healthy in science, but heavy debate over the basics of a model is not evidence of a strong model. At some point, a model which explains every observation and indeed predicts future observations will generate a consensus among scientists as it is tested and not found lacking.

So what predictions of FUTURE observations have any of these 'creationist models' made? It's rather easy to explain any observation by simply saying, "the flood was complicated so it accounts for that." It's also utterly useless in predicting future observations and simply isn't science.
 
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shernren

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You're basically repeating everything Pathlights said here:

Yes, some parts of the shale have some deformations -- but the Lewis overthrust is up to 3 MILES thick -- its HUGE -- and the amount of deformation in the fragile shale is nowhere what one would expect for such a huge movement. There is also the little problem of no debris at the "front" of the "overthrust" like there would be if one part scraped over the other.

Yes, the Lewis Overthrust is HUGE. And that is why the whole northern belt of Montana is disturbed. I know nuts about American geography but having the entire northern part of a whole state being disturbed doesn't count as sufficient deformation? Can you cite a single creationist observation of a site with no deformation, where the creationist wasn't looking at the wrong spot or mistaking fault gouge for undisturbed shale?

The presence of shale underneath other strata causes no problem for the flood model. How many times do I have to repeat myself? Changing conditions in a flood change what and how things are eroded or deposited. It is overly simplistic to imagine a single monolithic deposition event.

Alright, let's try to postulate two. We'll completely ignore where the strata under the overthrust came from. Let's say we trust Pathlights' assessment of the thickness of the strata. Let's say we have one deposition event producing the Grinnell Argillite, Appekunny Argillite, and Altyn Limestone. You have postulated yourself that multiple deposition events would be needed, and you have stated that creationists have proved that hydrological sorting can make different layers of sediments deposit simultaneously according to different grain size. Now, this first deposition event has to deposit 1,800m of clay and 700m of limestone. The immediate and obvious question is from where? This is an open question and I have no idea what bearing it has on the creationist model; nevertheless, let us be generous and assume that this takes 200 days to deposit.

The total depth of deposition is 2,500m; before deposition, the particulates must have been far more widely dispersed through the water carrying it. Let's say that the particulates were initially dispersed through 5,000m of water (if they actually were so concentrated, they would have been deposited long before they reached); on a very crude (and probably generous) average each particulate needs to descend 1,250m, which we will generously round down to 1,200m because I am lazy to work with ugly numbers. That means that each particle has to have an average velocity of 6m per day, or 0.0694mm/s. While that may seem like a very small velocity, in reality the particulates that form chalk (similar to the ones that form limestone) settle at the rate of .0000154 mm/sec - roughly four thousand times slower than the creationist needs, and with very generous allowances!

We have already established that 200 days for the first deposition event is pretty wild. Under current conditions, calcareous ooze at its fastest settles at about 5cm/kiloyear, without taking into account lithification; creationists basically need sedimentation rates of a million times that to meet their target of the first deposition event taking 200 days, let alone the difficulty of having all that water stay still in there all that time (moving water = slower deposition). And as if that is not bad enough, you then have to deposit another further 1,200m of limestone!

How do you work your way out of that one? What kind of environmental conditions are you going to presuppose to get all those sediments down fast enough?
 
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Assyrian

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Regarding shale formation - it has been demonstrated that those are not the only conditions that shale can form. Also, Guy Berthault's experiments have shown a natural hyrdrological sorting of a sample of grand canyon shale.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/TJ/v11/i2/nature.asp
Their examples seem to rely on particles sorting themselves by sliding down a slope, either of a sand pile or the sides of a dropping funnel.
112tj.jpg

The article points to layering in the pyroclastic flow from Mt St Helens, but we are talking about a flood not aerial deposition and clay particles not ash.

What physical constraints resulted in the layering of vast beds of shale? There are no sloping walls. The clay particles aren't rolling over each other like the ones in the funnel or in pyroclastic flows, the particles are surrounded and isolated from each other by water until they reach the bottom.

What slowed the clay bearing water down enough for the clay particles to settle out? What force were able to produce changes in direction of water flow or composition of the sediment suspension across vast areas to give layering, yet with these forces not disturbing the very calm conditions needed for particles smaller than 0.006mm to settle out?
 
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