Humanists of the not necessarily secular kind.

[Danhalen]

I wonder what you think your God would feel about a true group of humanists.

What I propose to do is form a philanthropic group which crosses all ideological boundaries. We will not soley rely on monetary philanthropy. What we will do is focus on what we can do to make the world better. We want to reduce the suffering of all people. We want to acheive this in a way which does not ask those receiving our help to follow our ideologies. "What can we do to make the world better from the standpoint of the one receiving the help?" This is the question we will be trying to answer and then implement.

I know some may already believe this group exists; universalists. But I do not want to celebrate our differences in our group. I want to celebrate our coming together to conquer a common enemy; human suffering.

So, what do you think God would think of an organization which promotes the greater good of human life, but not through the spreading of his word?

Christian Universalists need not respond. I already know your answer.

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Hi Dan,

"I wonder what you think your God would feel about a true group of humanists."

The God I believe exist would love them just the same as all other creatures.

"What I propose to do is form a philanthropic group which crosses all ideological boundaries. We will not soley rely on monetary philanthropy. What we will do is focus on what we can do to make the world better. We want to reduce the suffering of all people. We want to acheive this in a way which does not ask those receiving our help to follow our ideologies. "What can we do to make the world better from the standpoint of the one receiving the help?" This is the question we will be trying to answer and then implement."

Sounds wonderful.

"I know some may already believe this group exists; universalists. But I do not want to celebrate our differences in our group. I want to celebrate our coming together to conquer a common enemy; human suffering."

Excellent. Where do I sign up?

"Christian Universalists need not respond. I already know your answer."

Oh, nevermind.

 

[The Midge]

I wonder what you think your God would feel about a true group of humanists.

What I propose to do is form a philanthropic group which crosses all ideological boundaries. We will not soley rely on monetary philanthropy. What we will do is focus on what we can do to make the world better. We want to reduce the suffering of all people. We want to acheive this in a way which does not ask those receiving our help to follow our ideologies. "What can we do to make the world better from the standpoint of the one receiving the help?" This is the question we will be trying to answer and then implement.

I know some may already believe this group exists; universalists. But I do not want to celebrate our differences in our group. I want to celebrate our coming together to conquer a common enemy; human suffering.

So, what do you think God would think of an organization which promotes the greater good of human life, but not through the spreading of his word?

Christian Universalists need not respond. I already know your answer.

It is as though you are asking us to read your mind and see your true motives. God views us by our heart rather than our stated aims or intentions.

God wants us to do good; we are designed to do good; we are made to do good. By doing good we reach our full potential. God loves that.

But- What happens when we fail our expectations and even our best efforts go wrong? When pride takes over? When opinions about what is best for another are fed by our own predjudices rather than what is right? When corruption creeps in and taints our best efforts?

It is works. It is believing we can be without the divine. It could be an idoltary. But if you really cross all ideological divides then I co-operate with the betterment of humanity and your group as far as I were able even though I would have to say everyone needs Christ- regardless of their standpoint. However I'm not God.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Danhalen, what you propose to do, is a very worthy and loving cause, even if you are not Christian, Jesus who loves all men and women, and died to prove it, would be very pleased about it. The Salvation Army does that too, and after they have catered for the bodily needs of people, they tell them about the Love, Jesus our Leader, has for them. There is absolutely no force involved Danhalen, only love and pure generosity. I say this lovingly and humbly, and wish you success in your efforts. Sincere greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[chokmah]

I think it's perfect, Danhalen. I see no reason for religion and humanism to be separate; but nor do I see one having to be the overt reason for the other.

 

[divided sky]

I think it's excellent, and if there truly exists a loving, compassionate, merciful, good God, I cannot see why this God would not find it excellent as well.

 

[Natro]

Two words "Lightning Bolt".

 

[divided sky]

Dear Danhalen, what you propose to do, is a very worthy and loving cause, even if you are not Christian, Jesus who loves all men and women, and died to prove it, would be very pleased about it. The Salvation Army does that too, and after they have catered for the bodily needs of people, they tell them about the Love, Jesus our Leader, has for them. There is absolutely no force involved Danhalen, only love and pure generosity. I say this lovingly and humbly, and wish you success in your efforts. Sincere greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Today's drive-by Emmy post has been brought to you by Dr. Pepper. "I'm a Pepper, he's a Pepper, wouldn't you like to be a Pepper too?"

 

[jayem]

Philanthropy purely for its own sake, without any particular religious motivation is certainly worthwhile.

But I don't think you have to re-invent the wheel. Lots of worthy non-religious (or pan-religious) organizations already exist which do much humanitarian good without any sectarian agenda. A few of the big multi-national groups: International Red Cross (the most obvious), Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders, Big Brothers Big Sisters International, The Hunger Project, and Oxfam International come to mind off the top of my head.

Or is this not what you're talking about?

 

[Stormy]

Two words "Lightning Bolt".

ROFL

 

[Stormy]

You think you can get people from all religions together for the common good of man?

So is your idea to show that people can work together with different beliefs... or in spite of different beliefs. Are you asking for people to set their faith aside?

 

[Code-Monkey]

I know some may already believe this group exists; universalists. But I do not want to celebrate our differences in our group. I want to celebrate our coming together to conquer a common enemy; human suffering.

So, what do you think God would think of an organization which promotes the greater good of human life, but not through the spreading of his word?

Christian Universalists need not respond. I already know your answer.

Can I ask some questions about this?

Implicit in your group's agenda then would be to stop people from harming others. Certainly you would want to work towards stopping rape, murder, and so forth. But the vast majority of suffering comes from much less dramatic things... ie, it comes from people being dishonest to one another, to people gossiping about one another, and some of these legal sorts of things. So implicit in your group's agenda will be to not only to stop those things, but very likely to tell people that those actions are morally wrong.

But I wonder, if you tell someone that what they've done is wrong, then are you increasing or decreasing the amount of suffering in the world? And where do they go from there? Is it really just to let someone who is causing others to suffer go unchecked? So what sort of punishment/deterence will your group do?

A final comment... I suspect someone who dedicates their life to following the sort of goals you are proposing isn't really excluding God, rather they're very much doing a great deal of the things He is asking them to do. Whether or not they realize they are following God's orders I suppose is something between them and Him. But if someone goes around telling people to do unto others and you would have them do unto you and doesn't realize that Jesus said it, then aren't they still spreading His word nonetheless?

Another example... if I decide I think science is wrong so I'm going to develop a new system that's not science. And then I go along to suggest making observations, making hypothesis, making predictions based upon the hypothesis and then testing it in an experiment. Since I'm no longer calling it science can someone really say that I have left behind science just because I no longer use the name of science? Or does the fact that I'm doing exactly what science says to do mean that I really am doing science?

I suspect most theologians might say that by doing what you are suggesting that you are in effect moving towards God and are heeding His call. The fact that you don't yet understand that it is God calling you to do what you are doing may not be trivial, but it may become abundantly clear to you in due time that you are in effect doing a part of His will as does anyone who obeys His commands.

 

[Danhalen]

The Salvation Army does that too, and after they have catered for the bodily needs of people, they tell them about the Love, Jesus our Leader, has for them.

This is what I want to avoid. I would not want someone to say "I'm doing this on the example of ____." I want people to say "I'm doing this because it should be done."

 

[Danhalen]

A few of the big multi-national groups: International Red Cross (the most obvious), Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders, Big Brothers Big Sisters International, The Hunger Project, and Oxfam International come to mind off the top of my head.

Actually, I wrote this in haste and had forgotten to mention these groups as models. Heifer International is another good one I had forgotten.

Or is this not what you're talking about?

It is basically what I am talking about. You do well to point that out.

 

[whitestar]

This is what I want to avoid. I would not want someone to say "I'm doing this on the example of ____." I want people to say "I'm doing this because it should be done."

That's fine and to answer your question...you want to know what God would think of this? How could He be displeased with it actually?

I think Christians need to be careful that we become so arrogant we think nothing can be useful or good if its not done by Christians...he isn't talking about savlation here or being saved...just helping others.

(and yes I know...no one is 'good' but God...I am not using it in that sense and don't want to get sidetracked on that..k)

So at any rate, I don't see how God could be displeased with reducing human suffering...that is usually caused by human suffering...

Is this a 'just wondering what your thoughts are' question or are you really planning on doing something like this? And what types of human suffering are you thinking about? Tackling certain ones..hunger?...building shelters for those who need them? Medical help? More education so people can work and take care of themselves? what excatly..

God bless
WhiteStar

 

[Danhalen]

Can I ask some questions about this?

It is the perfect media for you to do so.

Implicit in your group's agenda then would be to stop people from harming others. Certainly you would want to work towards stopping rape, murder, and so forth. But the vast majority of suffering comes from much less dramatic things... ie, it comes from people being dishonest to one another, to people gossiping about one another, and some of these legal sorts of things. So implicit in your group's agenda will be to not only to stop those things, but very likely to tell people that those actions are morally wrong.

Policing the actions of others is not implicit in my goals. Nursing the infirm and downtrodden is. I can not tell another what is wrong and acheive my goals. All I can do is relieve the suffering of one.

But I wonder, if you tell someone that what they've done is wrong, then are you increasing or decreasing the amount of suffering in the world? And where do they go from there? Is it really just to let someone who is causing others to suffer go unchecked? So what sort of punishment/deterence will your group do?

There is no punishment in giving clothes to a child in need. There is no deterence in getting groceries for a shut-in. There is only enabling others to do for themselves what they can.

A final comment... I suspect someone who dedicates their life to following the sort of goals you are proposing isn't really excluding God, rather they're very much doing a great deal of the things He is asking them to do. Whether or not they realize they are following God's orders I suppose is something between them and Him. But if someone goes around telling people to do unto others and you would have them do unto you and doesn't realize that Jesus said it, then aren't they still spreading His word nonetheless?

In doing the work that will ease suffering I am spreading the teachings of all people that said to make it so, not just Jesus. Keep in mind that the Buddha said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you five hundred years earlier. It doesn't make the words of Jesus any less potent, it just means that Jesus wasn't the only one. This is why my hypothetical group will invite everyone to help.

Another example... if I decide I think science is wrong so I'm going to develop a new system that's not science. And then I go along to suggest making observations, making hypothesis, making predictions based upon the hypothesis and then testing it in an experiment. Since I'm no longer calling it science can someone really say that I have left behind science just because I no longer use the name of science? Or does the fact that I'm doing exactly what science says to do mean that I really am doing science?

I don't think you are thinking along the same lines as me. I don't think religious charity is wrong, even if they are spreading their message while being charitable. I am merely proposing another way to be charitable. Charity for the sake of charity.

I suspect most theologians might say that by doing what you are suggesting that you are in effect moving towards God and are heeding His call. The fact that you don't yet understand that it is God calling you to do what you are doing may not be trivial, but it may become abundantly clear to you in due time that you are in effect doing a part of His will as does anyone who obeys His commands.

I suspect that you may be correct. This is one of the reasons I believe that the Jesus depicted in the Bible is one of the greatest humanists described. If my actions toward the betterment of humanity are labeled as "doing the work of God' then so be it. You can call it what you want just so long as the goal of a better world is strived for.

 

[Danhalen]

So at any rate, I don't see how God could be displeased with reducing human suffering...that is usually caused by human suffering...

I am pleased that you see it this way.

Is this a 'just wondering what your thoughts are' question or are you really planning on doing something like this? And what types of human suffering are you thinking about? Tackling certain ones..hunger?...building shelters for those who need them? Medical help? More education so people can work and take care of themselves? what excatly..

As of now, this is just a thought in my mind. I really want to do something about this thought. I will, in good time, try to make this idea more concrete. Right now, I have no idea how, or where, to begin. It will happen someday.

 

[Ray-Ray]

I know this isn’t answering your question but just wanted to add if this is an international project and you required assistance, I would be more than happy to help.

 

[Danhalen]

I know this isn’t answering your question but just wanted to add if this is an international project and you required assistance, I would be more than happy to help.

I have not even started it, but I don't think my inaction should deter you. I don't have the time, nor capital, to do anything other than put my thoughts down. Perhaps I should build a website to attract attention to the idea, and let all of us figure it out.

 

[Danhalen]

You think you can get people from all religions together for the common good of man?

I don't know if I can. I do believe it's possible.

So is your idea to show that people can work together with different beliefs... or in spite of different beliefs. Are you asking for people to set their faith aside?

I don't want people to set their faith aside. I want people to work for humanity before their faith.