Human Value

Robban · Mar 31, 2021

Bradskii said:
Death is a plus according to some. It's the gateway to heaven.

We'd all prefer a gentle slide into that good night. But...disease all but ensures we need to rage against it. Or even determine to end it sooner rather than later. The horror!

I do not want to die because I am scared of missing out on something.

But it seems it comes to all in the twinkling of an eye.

Had a strange experience in August last year.

One moment I was doing something next moment, nothing, totally absolutely nothing.

I was was found floating in the water,
for how long I have no idea.

After 2-5 days coming back was not so easy.

But just that absence is difficult to describe,
if there are words to describe it.

I remember after coming too a doctor asked me how I felt,

I replied, fly me to the moon.

Made him and his team laugh, which was good,

We all need cheering up,
often at any rate.

atpollard · Mar 31, 2021

Bradskii said:
Ebola? Covid? Polio? Cancer?

Job 1:20-22 [NASB]

Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped. He said,

"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
And naked I shall return there.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away.
Blessed be the name of the LORD."

Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Isaiah 45:7 [NASB]

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

So, Yes. I see God in everything and you see God in nothing.

renniks · Mar 31, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
I’ve got a scenario for you.
If we found a planet that contained intelligent life, but they looked different from us (thus not in God’s image and no souls)Do you think this give us the moral right to treat them as we treat animals here on Earth?

Define intelligent. My dog is intelligent compared to say, a chipmunk, I think. I would still eat a dog if I was starving.

Bradskii · Mar 31, 2021

atpollard said:
Job 1:20-22 [NASB]

Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped. He said,

"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
And naked I shall return there.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away.
Blessed be the name of the LORD."
Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Isaiah 45:7 [NASB]

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

So, Yes. I see God in everything and you see God in nothing.

Well, as an atheist...no. You're right. My post was just to balance the usual kittens and warm woolen mittens approach that some have when thanking God for everything. Look at the sunset! Look at the rainbow!

Nobody ever says 'Look at the poverty! Look at the disease! Look at the pain and loss!'

All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small, tearing each other to bits just to exist.

atpollard · Mar 31, 2021

Bradskii said:
Well, as an atheist...no. You're right. My post was just to balance the usual kittens and warm woolen mittens approach that some have when thanking God for everything. Look at the sunset! Look at the rainbow!

Nobody ever says 'Look at the poverty! Look at the disease! Look at the pain and loss!'

All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small, tearing each other to bits just to exist.

I can’t argue with that.
Too many Christians want to flinch at the hard parts.
(Fortunately, I am one of those “mean” Calvinists that believe in an “unfair” God that ... does as He pleases).

Ken-1122 · Mar 31, 2021

renniks said:
No, God created. And being mammals does not make us animals.

Umm yes it does.
Definition of MAMMAL
All mammals are animals. I think you're confusing mammals with beasts.

Ken-1122 · Mar 31, 2021

renniks said:
Define intelligent. My dog is intelligent compared to say, a chipmunk, I think. I would still eat a dog if I was starving.

Intelligence is the ability to learn from those who came before you and adding to it; humans are the only creatures on Earth capable of doing this.
Intelligence - Wikipedia

Example; if you were to go back 1000 years into the past, and bring dog, chipmunk, or any other animal than human to the 21st century, the ancient animal would fit right in with the animals of today, but a human from 1000 years ago would be completely lost due to the technology of today. Does this make sense to you?

dlamberth · Mar 31, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Intelligence is the ability to learn from those who came before you and adding to it; humans are the only creatures on Earth capable of doing this.
Intelligence - Wikipedia

Example; if you were to go back 1000 years into the past, and bring dog, chipmunk, or any other animal than human to the 21st century, the ancient animal would fit right in with the animals of today, but a human from 1000 years ago would be completely lost due to the technology of today. Does this make sense to you?

Without a doubt I definitely have a completely different understanding of intelligence than what your projecting. Take the Universe for example. The Universe is intelligent enough to learn how to birth Human Beings and all life on this planet.

Ken-1122 · Mar 31, 2021

dlamberth said:
Without a doubt I definitely have a completely different understanding of intelligence than what your projecting. Take the Universe for example. The Universe is intelligent enough to learn how to birth Human Beings and all life on this planet.

Is it your belief that the Universe is aware of it's surroundings, and made a conscious effort to birth human beings and all life on this planet?

dlamberth · Mar 31, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Is it your belief that the Universe is aware of it's surroundings, and made a conscious effort to birth human beings and all life on this planet?

I didn't say that.

Ken-1122 · Apr 1, 2021

dlamberth said:
I didn't say that.

True you did not. I'm trying to understand your interpretation of "intelligence". By definition, in order to be intelligent, you have to be aware of your surroundings; but this doesn't seem to fit in with how you are defining it does it?

renniks · Apr 1, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
Example; if you were to go back 1000 years into the past, and bring dog, chipmunk, or any other animal than human to the 21st century, the ancient animal would fit right in with the animals of today, but a human from 1000 years ago would be completely lost due to the technology of today. Does this make sense to you?

That's hilarious, because I have done quite a bit of study on ancient technology. I think those people were way more skilled than us and in lot of ways smarter, too. no they're not going to be able to run a computer right away, but it isn't because of lack of intelligence.
I personally would rather be skilled in ways to survive in any situation then just have technological skills.

dlamberth · Apr 1, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
True you did not. I'm trying to understand your interpretation of "intelligence". By definition, in order to be intelligent, you have to be aware of your surroundings; but this doesn't seem to fit in with how you are defining it does it?

There are different kinds of awareness. A plant for instance is aware of where the sun is through out the day. The grubs in the earth are aware of the microbes they munch on. In the beginning, the Big Bang time the first particles new how to combine with other particles to make suns, planets and galaxies. And on and on... Each stage learning from the previous stage of development. All of these different awareness come together to birth life on Earth, and who knows, maybe another planet somewhere else. It's a macro-perspective.

atpollard · Apr 1, 2021

dlamberth said:
There are different kinds of awareness. A plant for instance is aware of where the sun is through out the day. The grubs in the earth are aware of the microbes they munch on. In the beginning, the Big Bang time the first particles new how to combine with other particles to make suns, planets and galaxies. And on and on... Each stage learning from the previous stage of development. All of these different awareness come together to birth life on Earth, and who knows, maybe another planet somewhere else. It's a macro-perspective.

Ummm ... no.

Ken-1122 · Apr 1, 2021

renniks said:
That's hilarious, because I have done quite a bit of study on ancient technology. I think those people were way more skilled than us and in lot of ways smarter, too. no they're not going to be able to run a computer right away, but it isn't because of lack of intelligence.

I wasn’t talking about who is smarter or more skilled, I was talking about who knows more. With humans, our ancestors taught us everything they knew, and we added to it. Animals only know what their ancestors taught them, and they didn’t take it any further than that.

renniks said:
I personally would rather be skilled in ways to survive in any situation then just have technological skills.

In today’s world, you need technological skills to survive.

Care to answer my question?

Ken-1122 · Apr 1, 2021

dlamberth said:
There are different kinds of awareness. A plant for instance is aware of where the sun is through out the day. The grubs in the earth are aware of the microbes they munch on. In the beginning, the Big Bang time the first particles new how to combine with other particles to make suns, planets and galaxies. And on and on... Each stage learning from the previous stage of development. All of these different awareness come together to birth life on Earth, and who knows, maybe another planet somewhere else. It's a macro-perspective.

I agree with your post #128, you do have a different interpretation of intelligence than I (and everyone else). Inanimate objects, and that which does not contain life are not intelligent; you’re just using the term out of context. This can be quite confusing in discussions like these, but I will keep this in mind as I continue further discussions with you.

dlamberth · Apr 1, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
I agree with your post #128, you do have a different interpretation of intelligence than I (and everyone else).

Everyone in this forum, with that I agree. But not everyone else.

Ken-1122 · Apr 1, 2021

dlamberth said:
Everyone in this forum, with that I agree. But not everyone else.

Can you provide an outside source (dictionary.com, Wikipedia etc) that supports your definition?

renniks · Apr 2, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
I wasn’t talking about who is smarter or more skilled, I was talking about who knows more. With humans, our ancestors taught us everything they knew, and we added to it. Animals only know what their ancestors taught them, and they didn’t take it any further than that.

In today’s world, you need technological skills to survive.

Care to answer my question?

What question?

renniks · Apr 2, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
True you did not. I'm trying to understand your interpretation of "intelligence". By definition, in order to be intelligent, you have to be aware of your surroundings; but this doesn't seem to fit in with how you are defining it does it?

Intelligence and awareness of your surroundings are not the same at all. Lots of super-intelligent people are lost in their own little worlds.

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