Human Population

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Oh and how many monkeys were on the Ark? Because Simian Immunodeficiency Virus needs to be somewhere. In playing this game I'll assume the Flood was before it jumped to humans to become HIV.

Something had to have Rabies. There would have had to be mosquitos on board harboring Malaria, or humans. Some of Noah's family must have been carrying Hepatitis as well. Oh and someone would have had to have had Herpes Simplex and HPV.


?

Since there are more than 60 known human papilloma viruses (HPV) I guess there must have been some really warty people on that ark.

 

[rockaction]

77

Give it up, rock -- you're fighting an uphill battle here.

You really think that explanation holds water? The cruelty of the implications aside, there is a lot wrong with that explanation scientifically. Why is it that the just and unjust and the Christians and the atheists die from cancer at the same rate? That viruses are indiscriminate to the state of your soul? That poor little innocent children in Africa are always the ones that get cholera, not the heartless jerks who run Corporate America?

Epidemiology has taught us a lot about risk factors for disease. Smoking causes lung cancer, adultery doesn't. Getting bit by an animal with Rhabdovirus causes rabies, not taking the Lord's name in vain. Drinking water contaminated with Vibrio cholerae causes cholera, not rejecting Jesus.

 

[rockaction]

Since there are more than 60 known human papilloma viruses (HPV) I guess there must have been some really warty people on that ark.

And there are 200 Rhinoviruses! Imagine that cold!

 

[AV1611VET]

You really think that explanation holds water?

Yes

The cruelty of the implications aside, there is a lot wrong with that explanation scientifically.

As there should be, when God circumvents science to perform a miracle.

Why is it that the just and unjust and the Christians and the atheists die from cancer at the same rate?

Remember those Beatitudes you learned in Sunday School -- and the Sermon on the Mount?

Matthew 5:45b ... for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

How soon we forget, eh?

 

[rockaction]

Remember those Beatitudes you learned in Sunday School -- and the Sermon on the Mount?

Matthew 5:45b ... for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

How soon we forget, eh?

So you're factoring in cholera, salmonella, E. coli, HIV, ebola, influenza, HPV, hepatitis, measles, mumps, rubella, west nile, yellow fever, H. pylori, N. meningitidis, CMV, diptheria, listeria, tuberculosis, malaria, shigella, yersinia, treponema, and pertussis, to name a precious few, as God's divine wrath upon humanity? I have to hand it to God - he's pretty creative in his methods of punishing/torturing us. That bacterial flagellum is a work of virulent art.

 

[AV1611VET]

So you're factoring in cholera, salmonella, E. coli, HIV, ebola, influenza, HPV, hepatitis, measles, mumps, rubella, west nile, yellow fever, H. pylori, N. meningitidis, CMV, diptheria, listeria, tuberculosis, malaria, shigella, yersinia, treponema, and pertussis, to name a precious few, as God's divine wrath upon humanity? I have to hand it to God - he's pretty creative in his methods of punishing/torturing us. That bacterial flagellum is a work of virulent art.

All He had to do was send a 'kind', and adaptation would do the rest over time.

And don't overlook one of the basic end-time indicators:

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 

[rockaction]

All He had to do was send a 'kind', and adaptation would do the rest over time.

And don't overlook one of the basic end-time indicators:

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Well I'm glad to know that he sent that bacterial gastroenteritis 'kind', because it has done a great job at killing millions of malnourished children in underdeveloped parts of the world. Your God is truly just.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well I'm glad to know that he sent that bacterial gastroenteritis 'kind', because it has done a great job at killing millions of malnourished children in underdeveloped parts of the world. Your God is truly just.

And if 'my God' doesn't exist, how does that make 'your god' any better?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Are you factoring in disease, wars, infant mortality rates, famines etc?

My model is ultra conservative and makes huge allowances for such things. My couples only have 6 kids each, beginning at age 25. God tells man to 'reproduce vigorously' after the flood, which actually would mean that they would have a very high birth rate, possibly beginning much younger than age 25 and continuing for many years, as the bible states that the sons of Noah did do.

 

[rockaction]

And if 'my God' doesn't exist, how does that make 'your god' any better?

Hey man, I don't believe in any gods. From the way I see it, the universe is indifferent to our existence. In light of this, it makes perfect sense why there is disease - because we are fighting with other organisms for survival. It's just a fact of life. It's why I'm devoting my life to medical science - so I can fight disease.

You, on the other hand, have to resort to claiming that disease is God's judgment, which makes him frankly rather cruel and not very loving.

Also, if I was a scientist or physician fighting infectious disease and God is truly the one who unleashed it, wouldn't I be opposing the will of God?

 

[AV1611VET]

In light of this, it makes perfect sense why there is disease - because we are fighting with other organisms for survival. It's just a fact of life.

Is that what you tell your 'millions of malnourished children in underdeveloped parts of the world'?

Or is that what you tell yourself?

It's why I'm devoting my life to medical science - so I can fight disease.

Good for you -- and I sincerely mean that.

Aren't you glad you weren't aborted?

You, on the other hand, have to resort to claiming that disease is God's judgment, which makes him frankly rather cruel and not very loving.

Only if you don't look at the whole picture.

Also, if I was a scientist or physician fighting infectious disease and God is truly the one who unleashed it, wouldn't I be opposing the will of God?

Not if it was His will for you to be a pathologist -- or whatever it is you are.

He sends workers into the field, even if those fields are tares and not wheat.

 

[matthewgar]

Is that what you tell your 'millions of malnourished children in underdeveloped parts of the world'?

Or is that what you tell yourself?

Good for you -- and I sincerely mean that.

Aren't you glad you weren't aborted?

Only if you don't look at the whole picture.

Not if it was His will for you to be a pathologist -- or whatever it is you are.

He sends workers into the field, even if those fields are tares and not wheat.

Truth is, what truth is, what we like about it doesn't matter, and I'm sure your excuse of god did it would fit under taht definition if true. The thing is with evolution it makes sense, it's a arms race between viruses, bacteria and other deadly things and us, nothing good or bad about it just nature. A by product of how life got to us, your way has god being a cruel being that purposly either makes this stuff or lets it grow from peoples actions. Some form of divine punishment, remind me why this makes him worthy of praise?

It really disturbs me how many people like you AV are so determined to make god look evil.

 

[rockaction]

Is that what you tell your 'millions of malnourished children in underdeveloped parts of the world'?

Or is that what you tell yourself?

I would rather tell the children it wasn't their fault than tell them it was God's judgment.

Good for you -- and I sincerely mean that.

Aren't you glad you weren't aborted?

Low blow. I find it odd that you would attack me on abortion when I have never shared my views on it on this board.

Only if you don't look at the whole picture.

I think you're the one not looking at the big picture. When you think of infectious disease you probably think of the common cold, influenza, or maybe about the HIV epidemic. You probably don't realize that smallpox used to wipe out villages like clockwork, and render life expectancy in the 30s. My physiology professor in college (who is a strong evangelical Christian) cited the eradication of smallpox as the "greatest achievement of mankind thus far". I doubt he would want you soiling the name of his God by claiming he designed smallpox.

Not if it was His will for you to be a pathologist -- or whatever it is you are.

He sends workers into the field, even if those fields are tares and not wheat.

I'm a student right now. But I would find it oddly inefficient of God to send me out to try, rather primitively (compared to God at least), to cure disease that he himself had unleashed.

 

[AV1611VET]

I would rather tell the children it wasn't their fault than tell them it was God's judgment.

I can do both -- I can tell them it's God's judgment, and Adam's fault.

You, on the other hand ... well ... let's just say, you would need an education in basic doctrine.

Low blow. I find it odd that you would attack me on abortion when I have never shared my views on it on this board.

That was an attack?

Aren't you glad you weren't run over by that truck that passed you the other day?

(Did I just attack your driving habits?)

I, on the other hand, can easily answer that question.

Yes, I'm glad I wasn't aborted.

I think you're the one not looking at the big picture. When you think of infectious disease you probably think of the common cold, influenza, or maybe about the HIV epidemic. You probably don't realize that smallpox used to wipe out villages like clockwork, and render life expectancy in the 30s. My physiology professor in college (who is a strong evangelical Christian) cited the eradication of smallpox as the "greatest achievement of mankind thus far".

I really, honestly, truly, sincerely try not to think of infectious diseases.

My lifestyle doesn't really put me in contact with a lot of them -- does yours?

I doubt he would want you soiling the name of his God by claiming he designed smallpox.

I doubt he sits and wonders how they were all on the Ark, either.

 

[marktheblake]

No, they don't want people to think about details like how not nearly enough people could have been around 100 years after the flood to build the Tower of Babel.

I use Creation.com not AIG, many of the articles are the same. Took me 10 seconds to find an article on that exact topic, by searching on populaiton+growth+tower+babel. Different organisation but that still undermines such a childish claim.

Noah and Genetics
How large was the population at the time? We would expect rapid population growth, but we cannot know exactly. There are 16 named sons born to the three brothers, Shem, Ham and Japheth. If we assume about the same number of daughters, Noah had on the order of 30 grandchildren. At that rate of growth, there would have been about 150 children in Salah’s generation, about 750 in Eber’s generation, and about 3,750 in Peleg’s generation. Of course, these generations overlap, etc., so let’s say there were between 1,000 and 10,000 people alive at the time of Babel. This fits nicely with the available data. It is a high rate of growth, but wars and disease had yet to start taking their toll.

200 people was your estimate. (Post 45).

Nope, i never made an estimate of 200, I did not give any figure at all, I made a specific statement that I couldnt count high enough cos i ran out of fingers. I guess you couldnt understand plain english again. I only asked what the population might be after 100 years, then 200. The second 100 years would be a huge increase over the first.

 

[matthewgar]

I use Creation.com not AIG, many of the articles are the same. Took me 10 seconds to find an article on that exact topic, by searching on populaiton+growth+tower+babel. Different organisation but that still undermines such a childish claim.

Noah and Genetics
How large was the population at the time? We would expect rapid population growth, but we cannot know exactly. There are 16 named sons born to the three brothers, Shem, Ham and Japheth. If we assume about the same number of daughters, Noah had on the order of 30 grandchildren. At that rate of growth, there would have been about 150 children in Salah’s generation, about 750 in Eber’s generation, and about 3,750 in Peleg’s generation. Of course, these generations overlap, etc., so let’s say there were between 1,000 and 10,000 people alive at the time of Babel. This fits nicely with the available data. It is a high rate of growth, but wars and disease had yet to start taking their toll.Nope, i never made an estimate of 200, I did not give any figure at all, I made a specific statement that I couldnt count high enough cos i ran out of fingers. I guess you couldnt understand plain english again. I only asked what the population might be after 100 years, then 200. The second 100 years would be a huge increase over the first.

Trouble is, these figures assume could = would. Not saying it might not have happened if flood is true, but were talking huge figures of population growth in a world without food, supplies, homes, source of food, economy. It probably take a hundred or so years just to recover, and during that time having dozens of kids isn't viable when your limited on resources. Drop humans on a new planet and you could have a massive population in years, but would they.

Post flood they be back to a preagriculture lifestyle, least untill they could get the resources and stuff, live stock couldn't be eaten for a while, among other things. Were looking at the base speed for humans in these growth figures ignoring everything that allows for that and limits that. People in that time had 10-20 kids, just to make sure most of them survived old enough to reproduce unless they were lucky enough to be in a safe area. Ignoring war and animals saying god kept that under control for a while you still have diseases and such.

 

[dad]

I'm not a mathematician but I'd like to figure out how the creation model started with 8 people and arrived at today's current population growth? Suppose we have an average rate of 2.5 children in a family, as a result that would yeild 6.5 billion (I think it's about 6.8 now) people today. But from the evolution model it is believe that humans has been around since 1 million years ago, nonetheless there must be a growth from that point, so if we assume the same rate we would get more than the number of electrons in the universe. Using the biblical number that make sense. But how do we work around the birth/death rates? Anybody have an idea? What are your thoughts on this?

Yes.

If gestation rates were different, and reproduction rates too, as well as life spans, that would do er.

 

[Gracchus]

If gestation rates were different, and reproduction rates too, as well as life spans, that would do er.

And if baseless ad hoc suppositions were horses you would be neck deep in ... Oh! Wait! Never mind!

 

[dad]

And if baseless ad hoc suppositions were horses you would be neck deep in ... Oh! Wait! Never mind!

No. Let's mind. It is baseless speculation that present lifespans and gestation and reproduction rates were in existence at the time. Thanks for that. Go ahead show the lurkers you know better..!!!!!

 

[Gracchus]

No. Let's mind. It is baseless speculation that present lifespans and gestation and reproduction rates were in existence at the time. Thanks for that. Go ahead show the lurkers you know better..!!!!!

The basis for thinking that the laws of physics, chemistry, astronomy, geology and biology were the same in the past as they are today is that those laws, still operating today, can be used to explain the past, without any recourse to miracles or magic, or different "states".

You, dad, may be a very good person. But your opinions are irrational. They might be right, but no reasonable deity could fault me for giving them a very, very low probability of being correct.