Human Population

[Mystman]

There were 8 people alive on the earth after the Flood: Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth and their wives.

Does you calculation take into account their long life-spans?

yes, no one dies in my calculation. The original women on the ark are still producing babies at a rate of 1 per year when the tower is being build. That's partly what causes the enormous numbers (in real situations you don't very often see a ~1/2 million fold increase in population in just 100 years..) (edit: the number actually isn't that much smaller when assuming that woman stop reproducing at age 50. oh well)

A much larger influence is the age at which girls first start reproducing. Bumping that up to 16 (not an unreasonable number), would give 9005 adult men per woman on the ark in the year 100, or a total of 36020.

 

[AV1611VET]

yes, no one dies in my calculation. The original women on the ark are still producing babies at a rate of 1 per year when the tower is being build. That's partly what causes the enormous numbers (in real situations you don't very often see a ~1/2 million fold increase in population in just 100 years..)

Okay -- I was just wondering.

Shem actually was alive (or died just before) Jacob's time; providing eye-witness testimony of the Flood, right up until the time of the patriarchs.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

According to Answers in Genesis the tower of Babel was built about 106 years after the flood.

Chapter 28: Was the Dispersion at Babel a Real Event? - Answers in Genesis

So are you saying that 200 people were busy building a massive tower intended to reach heaven? According to the story all different human languages arose when God "confused the language" at the Tower of Babel. Does it make sense to you that the 6,000 known human languages arose from 200 people 4,300 years ago?

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A careful reading of the account reveals that the project was stopped before it was completed. However, it was the 'beginning' of the later Babylonian empire. Nimrod led all the people that were alive to begin the city and the tower, as well as other cities nearby. Because he was aware of Noah's project he could well have engaged several generations of workers over a period of perhaps 120 years. God confused the language of each person so that each was left with a unique language. Languages evolve so as populations grew over time and further dispersed more languages developed. Regarding numbers, a work force of 200 can get alot of stuff done. Also we don't know how big or tall this tower was. The upshot of it is that it would dwarf any natural feature in the area and thus be a thing of wonder to rival the created world. It was a great ego trip (of course there is more to the story than that). God put a stop to it because of where it would ultimately lead humanity.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The 2011 Bear Carnage compound bow:

$850.00
​

Does that thing shoot arrows? It looks more like a high-tech club.

 

[AV1611VET]

Does that thing shoot arrows? It looks more like a high-tech club.

LOL -- it's the real thing, I guess.

 

[Targ]

I did have to change the frequency of childbirths to 1 each year for 6 years instead of 1 every other year for 12 years. That way each new generation is ready to bear children within the first 6 years of each subsequent 50 year period. I also didn't add the last generation of parents, who would still be alive at the end of each 50 year period (assuming a lifespan of 100 years at that time). That would add another 1/3 to the total population of any 50 year time period..........So starting with 1 couple (say Shem and his wife); having 6 kids in the first six years. Starting in year 25 and continuing through year 31 their kids marry and start similiar families. By the end of the first 50 year period Shem, Japheth, and Ham and their wifes have produced 108 children that are themselves ready to begin families. This figures to 54 couples that start the second 50 year period having 6 kids each and those kids in turn starting 6 kid families at the beginning of the third 50 year period. The model has the population increasing by a multiple of 3x each 50 year period, not including the previous generation of parents that would still be alive. I'm just multipying 54 x 3 x 16th power (not correctly stated but you get the idea).

Are you factoring in disease, wars, infant mortality rates, famines etc?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm not a mathematician but I'd like to figure out how the creation model started with 8 people and arrived at today's current population growth?

The technical term for it is "blessing", or "miracle".

Notice, God blessed Noah and his sons:

Genesis 9:1 ¶ And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Note also, Noah's blessing on Japheth:

Genesis 9:27a God shall enlarge Japheth,

A blessing is a specific act of God that pwns nature and makes worldly scientists scratch their heads and/or go into denial.

A blessing turns calculators into paperweights, clipboards into doorstops and paradigms into bedtime stories.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Are you factoring in disease, wars, infant mortality rates, famines etc?

How about factoring in the fact that the entire earth has supposedly been under water for a year and nothing was left alive on land except what little vegetation could regrow after this innudation and the survivors on the ark? How about factoring in the fact the 8 people on the ark must have been carrying all human diseases that aren't transmitted by animals as well as many parasites. Of course the poor animals on the ark must have been carrying a lot of diseases and parasites as well. I wonder which of Noah's family was carrying the small pox virus to keep it alive. Who had polio, etc.

 

[AV1611VET]

I wonder which of Noah's family was carrying the small pox virus to keep it alive. Who had polio, etc.

Does that 'etc' include Legionnaire's Disease as well? or H1N1? or N-KB3?

 

[rockaction]

Does that 'etc' include Legionnaire's Disease as well? or H1N1? or N-KB3?

Every disease known and unknown to man on this planet that requires a human host if you deny that evolution can take place.

I've always wondered this...so when do you believe all these microbes and viruses were created? Do you factor in evolution at all for an explanation?

 

[AV1611VET]

Every disease known and unknown to man on this planet that requires a human host if you deny that evolution can take place.

Is this a sentence?

I've always wondered this...so when do you believe all these microbes and viruses were created?

I really haven't given it much thought.

Do you factor in evolution at all for an explanation?

Microevolution -- not macro.

 

[rockaction]

Is this a sentence?

Thanks, Grammar Nazi. [You would have to account for] every disease known and unknown to man on this planet that requires a human host if you deny that evolution can take place.

Smallpox, polio, and other viruses without vectors or reservoirs that only infect humans would have to be infecting Noah's family. And animal viruses would have to be infecting the animals too.

I really haven't given it much thought.

You should think about it. I have a feeling you really don't have an appreciation for the microscopic world, which is a shame. The writers of the Bible didn't either (because they didn't have access to science, obviously) so they often misinterpreted infections. Just food for thought...another way you can use science to clarify or change your perspective/interpretation of the Bible.

Microevolution -- not macro.

For bacteria and other organisms that reproduce asexually, there is no useful distinction between "micro" and "macro" evolution because the line between species of asexual organisms is so blurry. "Species" as a term is easier to use in the context of sexually reproducing species, because the line between a species is usually defined as "unable to reproduce and give rise to viable offspring".

Asexual organisms simply divide and accumulate changes and as our taxonomy works right now, they just keep subdividing themselves into strains (bacteria) and serotypes (viruses). Everything is classified based on genetic similarity now.

I worked in a virus lab for a couple years, and we were working out the evolutionary history of a common cold virus, so I have a lot of first-hand experience with the annoyance of virus taxonomy. Half-way through my time there, our virus Rhinovirus was merged with another group of viruses as a sub-group. Quite a headache!

 

[AV1611VET]

Thanks, Grammar Nazi.

Fine -- I won't ask for clarification the next time I don't understand a sentence.

I'll just ignore it -- (like I'm so used to doing).

[You would have to account for] every disease known and unknown to man on this planet that requires a human host if you deny that evolution can take place.

Smallpox, polio, and other viruses without vectors or reservoirs that only infect humans would have to be infecting Noah's family. And animal viruses would have to be infecting the animals too.



You should think about it. I have a feeling you really don't have an appreciation for the microscopic world, which is a shame. The writers of the Bible didn't either (because they didn't have access to science, obviously) so they often misinterpreted infections. Just food for thought...another way you can use science to clarify or change your perspective/interpretation of the Bible.



For bacteria and other organisms that reproduce asexually, there is no useful distinction between "micro" and "macro" evolution because the line between species of asexual organisms is so blurry. "Species" as a term is easier to use in the context of sexually reproducing species, because the line between a species is usually defined as "unable to reproduce and give rise to viable offspring".

Asexual organisms simply divide and accumulate changes and as our taxonomy works right now, they just keep subdividing themselves into strains (bacteria) and serotypes (viruses). Everything is classified based on genetic similarity now.

I worked in a virus lab for a couple years, and we were working out the evolutionary history of a common cold virus, so I have a lot of first-hand experience with the annoyance of virus taxonomy. Half-way through my time there, our virus Rhinovirus was merged with another group of viruses as a sub-group. Quite a headache!

To be honest, I didn't understand hardly a word of what you said here.

It's still a virus, whether it's Rhinovirus or H1N1, or whatever; is it not?

If you want to talk over my head to try and make a point against the Bible -- go ahead; but don't expect me to cater to your technogarble.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Does that 'etc' include Legionnaire's Disease as well? or H1N1? or N-KB3?

It certainly includes leprosy which was well know in Biblical times and is only carried by humans and armadillos and since the pair of armadillos survived it must have been in the humans.

 

[AV1611VET]

It certainly includes leprosy which was well know in Biblical times and is only carried by humans and armadillos and since the pair of armadillos survived it must have been in the humans.

Then what's with this question?

I wonder which of Noah's family was carrying the small pox virus to keep it alive. Who had polio, etc.

If a virus on the Ark (assuming viruses even existed at the time) later manifested itself as leprosy, then still later as H1NI -- what's your point?

 

[rockaction]

To be honest, I didn't understand hardly a word of what you said here.

It's still a virus, whether it's Rhinovirus or H1N1, or whatever; is it not?

If you want to talk over my head to try and make a point against the Bible -- go ahead; but don't expect me to cater to your technogarble.

I'm not trying to "make a point against the Bible", unless the existence of viral diversity somehow threatens the Bible.

No one ever claimed that a Rhinovirus or Influenza isn't a virus or had the capacity to become something other than a virus. The way taxonomy and evolution work are that as things diversify, they simply diversify within what they already are. The only thing you would disagree with here is probably the starting point. You believe that God created a set of prototypes (at some level or another). Science says that everything diversified from a common population of ancestral organisms.

I'd ask you at what level God created microbial and viral prototypes. Did he create one bacterial prototype that diversified into all known species and strains today? Or did he create each one we know of today individually? If he created viruses, why? We need some strains of bacteria to live (in our gut, for example), but we certainly don't need viruses. What purpose do they play?

You see, when we start asking these questions, the idea of special creation gets more absurd and arbitrary, because it is hard to find a way that it can explain these things satisfactorily.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'd ask you at what level God created microbial and viral prototypes. Did he create one bacterial prototype that diversified into all known species and strains today? Or did he create each one we know of today individually? If he created viruses, why?

Well -- let's see -- it seems to me, I remember God warning that, if His people didn't shape up, He would do things like:

Leviticus 26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

Call it 'punctuated equilibrium', or whatever non-Biblical jargon you want to use, the fact is, they didn't necessarily have to be on the Ark -- did they?

You see, when we start asking these questions, the idea of special creation gets more absurd and arbitrary, because it is hard to find a way that it can explain these things satisfactorily.

Don't underestimate 'special creation'.

It's not as easy to explain away as you think it is.

 

[rockaction]

Then what's with this question?

If a virus on the Ark (assuming viruses even existed at the time) later manifested itself as leprosy, then still later as H1NI -- what's your point?

Oh and how many monkeys were on the Ark? Because Simian Immunodeficiency Virus needs to be somewhere. In playing this game I'll assume the Flood was before it jumped to humans to become HIV.

Something had to have Rabies. There would have had to be mosquitos on board harboring Malaria, or humans. Some of Noah's family must have been carrying Hepatitis as well. Oh and someone would have had to have had Herpes Simplex and HPV. Also, even though Chlamydia is caused by a bacterium, it requires human cells for its life cycle so someone would have to have it. Thank goodness we can pawn West Nile, Yellow Fever, and Dengue on mosquitos. Noah's family surely wouldn't have made it with that combo. So I guess we assume all the extracellular bacteria at the time would have had to survive the oceans of the flood or be living in biofilms on the Ark. Come to think of it, if we let the numbers speak here, we've got a couple awful viruses per person in this family. And the fact that some of these bad boys transmit from mother to child and sexually (hello inbreeding), how on Earth did the human race make it to where it is today?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Then what's with this question?

If a virus on the Ark (assuming viruses even existed at the time) later manifested itself as leprosy, then still later as H1NI -- what's your point?

Leprosy AKA Hansen's disease is caused by a bacteria, either bacteria Mycobacterium leprae or Mycobacterium lepromatosis not by a virus. I was just giving some of many examples of diseases carried by humans. To imagine that all significant human disease arose post flood is abusrd but imagining the absurd to try to justify your interpretation of the Bible when it flys in the face of modern scientific knowledge seems to be what you do best so imagine away, just don't expect anyone to take your ideas seriously.

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh and how many monkeys were on the Ark? Because Simian Immunodeficiency Virus needs to be somewhere. In playing this game I'll assume the Flood was before it jumped to humans to become HIV.

77

Give it up, rock -- you're fighting an uphill battle here.