Human Political Action in America If God Establishes Our Leaders

[durangodawood]

(Adapted from another thread where this question got lost in the mix)

I have heard that some Christians hold to the doctrine that leaders in govt are basically installed by the authority of God.

So, how should we down here on earth in America deal with leaders we dont like... if they are installed by the authority of God?

Think of a leader in govt whom you strongly disapprove of.
1. Is it even valid for you to want to replace this authorized-by-God leader?
2. Is it valid for you to act to replace that leader.?

 

[super animator]

Isn't this divine by right of kings argument?

 

[SigurdReginson]

I'm curious, too. If someone is installed via duplicitous means (such as election fraud), are they not authorized by god? What if someone usurps the throne, or plays some serious political underhanded poker via Game of Thrones style tactics? What if someone kills to achieve and maintain that power, like the Kim Jong dynasty?

 

[Magnanimity]

So, how should we down here on earth in America deal with leaders we dont like... if they are installed by the authority of God?

Think of a leader in govt whom you strongly disapprove of.
1. Is it even valid for you to want to replace this authorized-by-God leader?
2. Is it valid for you to act to replace that leader.?

I would think that the answer here would be similar to the one given regarding the point of prayer—as in, why should I ever pray and ask for anything if my “Father in heaven knows what I have need of before I ask him?”

Basically, it’s true that we cannot see all ends, and we in fact only see one small portion of Reality. Yet for all we know, God uses our expressed desires and actions to help maintain balance and keep the human project steering in the overall direction of justice.

History seems to suggest that inaction on the part of people tends to increase injustice and inequality. Justice doesn’t just happen by default. We have to help the project of justice along. So, we get involved politically, just as we pray and ask for stuff.

 

[Guinan]

All I will say on this subject right now is a plethora of faithful Trump loyalists immediately turned from "God ordained Trump because He chooses our leaders" to "God will intervene in this election and give Trump his rightfully earned second term" when it was finally determined that Biden won the election.

On a side note, I've even encountered some rather faithful Trump loyalists online who are still angrily insisting that Satan is behind Biden defeating Trump, and God will still intervene on Trump's behalf.

God apparently took a break in this election and decided to hand this election over to Satan and then Satan somehow managed to get Biden elected through the evil DEMONCRATS (the actual term that is being used). Bear with me here because I'm still trying to figure out this unusual scenario. FWIW, I've actually been called 'a minion of Satan' by some of these Trump loyalists because I voted for Biden.

 

[durangodawood]

I'm curious, too. If someone is installed via duplicitous means (such as election fraud), are they not authorized by god? What if someone usurps the throne, or plays some serious political underhanded poker via Game of Thrones style tactics? What if someone kills to achieve and maintain that power, like the Kim Jong dynasty?

Or what if they are just not up to the job?

 

[durangodawood]

I would think that the answer here would be similar to the one given regarding the point of prayer—as in, why should I ever pray and ask for anything if my “Father in heaven knows what I have need of before I ask him?”

Basically, it’s true that we cannot see all ends, and we in fact only see one small portion of Reality. Yet for all we know, God uses our expressed desires and actions to help maintain balance and keep the human project steering in the overall direction of justice.

History seems to suggest that inaction on the part of people tends to increase injustice and inequality. Justice doesn’t just happen by default. We have to help the project of justice along. So, we get involved politically, just as we pray and ask for stuff.

Thanks. Your response seems to pull back from a rigid notion that leaders are each specifically God ordained, and recognize that humans have to take part in choosing our own leaders.

This makes sense, of course. But functionally its indistinct from God being totally hands-off.

 

[durangodawood]

All I will say on this subject right now is a plethora of faithful Trump loyalists immediately turned from "God ordained Trump because He chooses our leaders" to "God will intervene in this election and give Trump his rightfully earned second term" when it was finally determined that Biden won the election....

Oh brother. I've encountered this too.

Perfect example of theology following political commitments.

 

[Sparagmos]

(Adapted from another thread where this question got lost in the mix)

I have heard that some Christians hold to the doctrine that leaders in govt are basically installed by the authority of God.

So, how should we down here on earth in America deal with leaders we dont like... if they are installed by the authority of God?

Think of a leader in govt whom you strongly disapprove of.
1. Is it even valid for you to want to replace this authorized-by-God leader?
2. Is it valid for you to act to replace that leader.?

AND since all leaders appear to be installed and removed by human acts rather than obvious "acts of god" like earthquakes, how do we know which human actions are acts of god and which are humans acting in opposition to god’s will?

 

[Magnanimity]

Thanks. Your response seems to pull back from a rigid notion that leaders are each specifically God ordained, and recognize that humans have to take part in choosing our own leaders.

This makes sense, of course. But functionally its indistinct from God being totally hands-off.

My thoughts are commensurate with a belief in the overarching divine providence and care for the entire creation. Partially, I hold these beliefs due to the impossibility of contingent existence apart from Necessary Being. But, it's important to keep in mind that we cannot possibly grasp what God may be up to (as in, why this leader and not the other one?). But the moral imperative to work for justice doesn't require us to grasp such.

You've heard the old adage, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice"? God is (slowly, it often seems) inclining humanity toward justice, but we are expected to help in the project too. As Martin Luther King Jr said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." - Letter from the Birmingham Jail

 

[Guinan]

AND since all leaders appear to be installed and removed by human acts rather than obvious "acts of god" like earthquakes, how do we know which human actions are acts of god and which are humans acting in opposition to god’s will?

I was scolded and told that I rebelled against God when I voted for Biden. I was told this by a couple of faithful Trump supporters who passionately believe that God ordained him to be the president.

 

[durangodawood]

My thoughts are commensurate with a belief in the overarching divine providence and care for the entire creation. Partially, I hold these beliefs due to the impossibility of contingent existence apart from Necessary Being. But, it's important to keep in mind that we cannot possibly grasp what God may be up to (as in, why this leader and not the other one?). But the moral imperative to work for justice doesn't require us to grasp such.

You've heard the old adage, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice"? God is (slowly, it often seems) inclining humanity toward justice, but we are expected to help in the project too. As Martin Luther King Jr said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." - Letter from the Birmingham Jail

Perhaps this is a call to be very active in removing unjust leaders, rather than accepting all leaders are installed by God?

 

[Magnanimity]

Perhaps this is a call to be very active in removing unjust leaders, rather than accepting all leaders are installed by God?

I can accept that. Some times injustice itself has a way of waking us up from our “dogmatic slumbers.” A leader who has a poorly developed sense of justice (or poor methods for furthering justice) can have a certain utility in helping to awaken the populace to a call to action.

 

[Arcangl86]

The Bible talks about rulers, not leaders. In the US, The People are the rulers, not Congress or the President. Their authority derives from ours, and if they misuse it, then we have the right to object.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I have heard that some Christians hold to the doctrine that leaders in govt are basically installed by the authority of God.

It'd probably be a good idea to look into it first, and be sure that is the case....don't ya' think?

There is scripture citing God has his hands on our laws, but can anyone show any biblical evidence that as a general rule, God places people in power?

 

[Kettriken]

Thanks. Your response seems to pull back from a rigid notion that leaders are each specifically God ordained, and recognize that humans have to take part in choosing our own leaders.

This makes sense, of course. But functionally its indistinct from God being totally hands-off.

Have you ever played around with magnification? With a microscope you can see a small part or you can see the whole, but it's difficult (or impossible) to see them at once. One can subscribe to the notion that God has ordained our leaders, but on a micro scale it doesn't negate what we may be called to do in our own lives to put our say in. I would say that it doesn't follow that God must be uninvolved just because many small humans are playing their part.

I was scolded and told that I rebelled against God when I voted for Biden. I was told this by a couple of faithful Trump supporters who passionately believe that God ordained him to be the president.

It is unfortunate that people can't differentiate between "God ordained me to vote for Trump" from "God ordained that Trump would win."

The Bible talks about rulers, not leaders. In the US, The People are the rulers, not Congress or the President. Their authority derives from ours, and if they misuse it, then we have the right to object.

This is an interesting distinction that I've seen mentioned but don't know much about. Guess I'd need much more time with the Greek to fully understand the nuances.

 

[KCfromNC]

Isn't this divine by right of kings argument?

Or another "wow, what a coincidence that god happens to support all the same people and ideas I already did" claim.

 

[durangodawood]

It'd probably be a good idea to look into it first, and be sure that is the case....don't ya' think?

There is scripture citing God has his hands on our laws, but can anyone show any biblical evidence that as a general rule, God places people in power?

Actually I had just encountered that opinion from another Christian here, but it was an off topic diversion so I wanted to start a new thread.

 

[durangodawood]

Have you ever played around with magnification? With a microscope you can see a small part or you can see the whole, but it's difficult (or impossible) to see them at once. One can subscribe to the notion that God has ordained our leaders, but on a micro scale it doesn't negate what we may be called to do in our own lives to put our say in. I would say that it doesn't follow that God must be uninvolved just because many small humans are playing their part....

This seems like a sensible outlook for a Christian to hold. But its also functionally no different from an atheist pov. Either way we the people still have to do our part in choosing leadership we think is suitable.

 

[Jamsie]

I have heard that some Christians hold to the doctrine that leaders in govt are basically installed by the authority of God.

The distinction involved and should be given some thought is that God's will is both efficacious/predictive and permissive. Thus in the Bible it often states something to the effect of "God gave them over...", meaning permitted. So there were those who claimed that trump was ordained neglecting that distinction of God's will ... the only reasoned outcome from my perspective is that those who claim Christianity need to do some soul searching as to their political embrace of such a person!