Human Nature/Sinful Nature

[rychusj]

I've come to a conclusion that what we call human nature is in fact the sinful nature we are supposed to crucify and give up for Christ. I only bring this up because I've read posts and articles all over the place where a lot of the time certain opinions are supported by "it's just human nature" or "it's just natural."

The problem I have with phrases like those is that it's also natural for a male lion to kill all cubs in a pride that aren't his offspring. It's natural for monkeys to throw their feces. The list goes on, the point being, just because something seems natural doesn't mean we should consider it acceptable behavior. Human nature is filled with sin, and although we always feel the "natural" urges and impulses, we shouldn't act on those things. To be a Christian is to be Christ-like, not human-like.

I'm curious if anyone else agrees with this or knows where I'm coming from. The main time I see this come up is in discussions of sexuality where many people say something is OK because "we're sexual beings," which I don't understand how people can't see the conflict there.

 

[bagpuss66]

what is acceptable in one culture isn't in another, but i suppose its about getting a balance, we do know right from wrong and jesus loves us and walks with us

 

[DCJazz]

Well Ry, that's how I've always viewed it. There are a many verses regarding self-control, even, or how if you can't trust yourself not to do certain things, that you should flee from that temptation.

 

[coons786c]

I've come to a conclusion that what we call human nature is in fact the sinful nature we are supposed to crucify and give up for Christ. I only bring this up because I've read posts and articles all over the place where a lot of the time certain opinions are supported by "it's just human nature" or "it's just natural."

The problem I have with phrases like those is that it's also natural for a male lion to kill all cubs in a pride that aren't his offspring. It's natural for monkeys to throw their feces. The list goes on, the point being, just because something seems natural doesn't mean we should consider it acceptable behavior. Human nature is filled with sin, and although we always feel the "natural" urges and impulses, we shouldn't act on those things. To be a Christian is to be Christ-like, not human-like.

I'm curious if anyone else agrees with this or knows where I'm coming from. The main time I see this come up is in discussions of sexuality where many people say something is OK because "we're sexual beings," which I don't understand how people can't see the conflict there.

No matter what anyone else says, always resort back to the word of God. We live in a fallen world and Satan has ministers appear to be rightous but water down the word. The bible still says that the wages of sin is death. And if you commit the works of the flesh you shall not enter into the kingdom of God.Gal 5 19-21.

 

[Hillsage]

I've come to a conclusion that what we call human nature is in fact the sinful nature we are supposed to crucify and give up for Christ.

I differentiate the human nature from the carnal nature. Even unsaved people can do right by their human nature;

ROM 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them.

We don't crucify our 'nature', we crucify 'the flesh'.

I'm curious if anyone else agrees with this or knows where I'm coming from. The main time I see this come up is in discussions of sexuality where many people say something is OK because "we're sexual beings," which I don't understand how people can't see the conflict there.

And scripture says, concerning these "sexual beings", that they are drawn away by 'their sinful nature'...No! It says they are drawn by the "lusts of the flesh".

 

[childofdust]

Well said, Hillsage

The belief that human nature itself is evil/sinful is Gnosticism or Manichaeism, not Christianity. That belief is the father of a thousand heresies and almost without exception has led all who think it far, far astray.

 

[Johnnz]

We are still God's creation. God has not abandoned His beloved humanity. We are fallen in that we try to live independently of God, but we are not inherently 'evil'. As new creations Jesus is restoring to us our true humanity back into the 'made of God's image' blueprint begun in Eden. To believe otherwise, as childofdust stated, is to be bewitched by Greek concepts, not biblical ones.

John
NZ

 

[daq]

[SIZE=+1]Sin and the 'old man' sin nature are portrayed as evil entity:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Genesis 4:6-7 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]6. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]7. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Romans 7:14-23 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]15. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The entities of sin are ''members'' of our households and dwellers upon the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Man is the earth; both the 'Erets-lands-commons, and the 'Adamah-soil of the heart.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Romans 8:12-14 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, [but] not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Colossians 3:5-7 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]5. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]6. For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]7. In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Our own ''members'' of the flesh are like the unruly members of an household:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Matthew 18:8-10 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]8. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]And every servant is put in charge of a household while the Master is away ~[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Matthew 24:43-51 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Mark 13:28-34 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]28. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]29. So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]30. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Anyone who truly comes to the Father in Christ Yeshua is no longer his own house:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Each one is become the house of YHWH; yet each is left in charge while the Master is away …[/SIZE]

 

[x141]

I've come to a conclusion that what we call human nature is in fact the sinful nature we are supposed to crucify and give up for Christ. I only bring this up because I've read posts and articles all over the place where a lot of the time certain opinions are supported by "it's just human nature" or "it's just natural."

The problem I have with phrases like those is that it's also natural for a male lion to kill all cubs in a pride that aren't his offspring. It's natural for monkeys to throw their feces. The list goes on, the point being, just because something seems natural doesn't mean we should consider it acceptable behavior. Human nature is filled with sin, and although we always feel the "natural" urges and impulses, we shouldn't act on those things. To be a Christian is to be Christ-like, not human-like.

I'm curious if anyone else agrees with this or knows where I'm coming from. The main time I see this come up is in discussions of sexuality where many people say something is OK because "we're sexual beings," which I don't understand how people can't see the conflict there.

Jesus said he did nothng of himself, to me that sums it up.

If the only way to gain your soul is to lose it, then to the measure you have lost it is the measure you have gained it.

The wisdom of the ant is not a 401k, it is a gathering together as one, into one.

If you do not see the abomination that makes the holy place of the tabernacles of God desolate, how can you flee it.

 

[rychusj]

I differentiate the human nature from the carnal nature. Even unsaved people can do right by their human nature;

ROM 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them.

We don't crucify our 'nature', we crucify 'the flesh'.

And scripture says, concerning these "sexual beings", that they are drawn away by 'their sinful nature'...No! It says they are drawn by the "lusts of the flesh".

Good point Hillsage. Perhaps I was wrong to say 'human nature'. I suppose what I meant is that I hear people justify sinful behavior a lot by claiming that it's in our nature as human beings. Carnal nature would indeed be more accurate.

 

[Evergreen48]

I've come to a conclusion that what we call human nature is in fact the sinful nature we are supposed to crucify and give up for Christ. I only bring this up because I've read posts and articles all over the place where a lot of the time certain opinions are supported by "it's just human nature" or "it's just natural."

The problem I have with phrases like those is that it's also natural for a male lion to kill all cubs in a pride that aren't his offspring. It's natural for monkeys to throw their feces. The list goes on, the point being, just because something seems natural doesn't mean we should consider it acceptable behavior. Human nature is filled with sin, and although we always feel the "natural" urges and impulses, we shouldn't act on those things. To be a Christian is to be Christ-like, not human-like.

I'm curious if anyone else agrees with this or knows where I'm coming from. The main time I see this come up is in discussions of sexuality where many people say something is OK because "we're sexual beings," which I don't understand how people can't see the conflict there.

The nature we are born with is pure. It is not human nature for a human male to kill all other offspring besides his own. The humans who would do such are not acting in accord with their human nature, but would be considered to be of a deranged mind completely contrary to human nature.

Jesus said: "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: . . . ." (Matthew 15:18-20)

Human nature is not defiled but mankind has defiled his own nature.

Eccles. 7:29. "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

Matthew 18: 2. "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

So, Jesus wants us to shed that which has defiled our nature and return to that nature of the little child that we started our lives with.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

Well said, Hillsage

The belief that human nature itself is evil/sinful is Gnosticism or Manichaeism, not Christianity. That belief is the father of a thousand heresies and almost without exception has led all who think it far, far astray.

As Gnostics I think it is more accurate to say the physical world is corrupted and people sin b/c they are blind to the fact that they are God's children.

People are bound to the fate of the archons and the god of this world until they receive salvation through Christ, which is freely available to anyone who seeks it.

I think it is natural to sin when one is blind, and natural to seek to be like Christ when you know the truth. "Know yourself and you will be known." One can't know who you truly are without Gnosis of God.

Father of a thousand heresies? I'll have to take that as a compliment b/c it is so much more poetic than most of the things people say about us here

 

[strangertoo]

I've come to a conclusion that what we call human nature is in fact the sinful nature we are supposed to crucify and give up for Christ. I only bring this up because I've read posts and articles all over the place where a lot of the time certain opinions are supported by "it's just human nature" or "it's just natural."

The problem I have with phrases like those is that it's also natural for a male lion to kill all cubs in a pride that aren't his offspring. It's natural for monkeys to throw their feces. The list goes on, the point being, just because something seems natural doesn't mean we should consider it acceptable behavior. Human nature is filled with sin, and although we always feel the "natural" urges and impulses, we shouldn't act on those things. To be a Christian is to be Christ-like, not human-like.

I'm curious if anyone else agrees with this or knows where I'm coming from. The main time I see this come up is in discussions of sexuality where many people say something is OK because "we're sexual beings," which I don't understand how people can't see the conflict there.

Jesus proved that a man doesn't have to sin, that men are deceived into sin by Satan with promises that never come true in life ... the Truth s that Love brings lasting happiness, sin ends in continual empty misery of conflict within... men bear shame with denial instead of turning back to Love, so sin becomes habitual misery, empty lives...

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

sinners live off the misery of others, but obviously that makes sin increase in the world until life no longer works at all... at that point God takes the few who Love to build the kingdom and the many are destroyed [Matt 7:13] for sin, to sleep in death until the kingdom is ready to teach them that Love is a better way to live [Rev 20:13] - all released from hell , contrary to religious myth...

 

[Evergreen48]

As Gnostics I think it is more accurate to say the physical world is corrupted and people sin b/c they are blind to the fact that they are God's children.

People are bound to the fate of the archons and the god of this world until they receive salvation through Christ, which is freely available to anyone who seeks it.

I think it is natural to sin when one is blind, and natural to seek to be like Christ when you know the truth. "Know yourself and you will be known." One can't know who you truly are without Gnosis of God.

Father of a thousand heresies? I'll have to take that as a compliment b/c it is so much more poetic than most of the things people say about us here

We are not all God's children.

We are all born God's children, inasmuch as we are all born in his 'household'. But most of us leave his 'house' and go to the devil's house to live, effectively becoming his children because we like his house rules better than we like those of God's house. But if we will repent and be cleansed, he will give us the power to become his children once again.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

 

[strangertoo]

We are not all God's children.

We are all born God's children, inasmuch as we are all born in his 'household'. But most of us leave his 'house' and go to the devil's house to live, effectively becoming his children because we like his house rules better than we like those of God's house. But if we will repent and be cleansed, he will give us the power to become his children once again.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

yes indeed, the spirit of all men creates the soul and the spirit is of God ...

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath ['ruah', spirit] of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

the immortal part, the essence, of a man is the spirit then , NOT the soul [which is created, and thus ends at death or translation/salvation]

thus all men are as indestructible as God and have nowhere else to go in the end of time, the end of creations, than back to God ...

this then defines the one-ness of being which we know as Love, that we inevitably will all return to Love because God requires it ... time goes on until we do so freely, realising Love is the best way to live, but there is ,you see, a deeper reason, we never really left God at all, God is indivisible, the endless creations of endlessness of the being of God are all unreal to God, like illusions of what God cannot be, dreams, virtual realities that all begin and then end... and God is the same, as-it-were everything , so nothing else can be, except it is as=it-were 'imagined' to be...

so to talk of sinful nature is to miss the point completely , God creates what is not God to know it, but cannot make it real, cannot make it last, because God is 'everything' that is endless ...

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

We are not all God's children.

We are all born God's children, inasmuch as we are all born in his 'household'. But most of us leave his 'house' and go to the devil's house to live, effectively becoming his children because we like his house rules better than we like those of God's house. But if we will repent and be cleansed, he will give us the power to become his children once again.

You are splitting hairs.

 

[strangertoo]

no, rather splitting heirs ... LOL?

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

no, rather splitting heirs ... LOL?

lol~!

 

[Evergreen48]

You are splitting hairs.

No, that is not 'splitting hairs'. That was in reply to your comment that people "are blind to the fact that they are God's children". It is not a fact that people sin because they don't see that they are God's children. They sin because they enjoy fleshly or carnal pleasures more than they enjoy spiritual pleasures. If the physical world is corrupted it is because mankind has corrupted it, but that has nothing to do with what is in the heart of man. Jesus said sin comes from the heart of man which is interior, not exterior.

There is no such thing as Yaltabaoth and his other created lesser archons. There is one Being who is the Creator of the first of all bodies with life and breath, and in our English language we call him God. If he did not create it, then it does not exist. Before him there was no God formed, neither shall there be any after him. (Isa. 43:10) If one does not believe the prophets of the Old Testament who spoke of him, then how can they believe in the Jesus of the New Testament? Gnosticism is the fake 'religion' of those who, for some reason, can not be satisfied with the plethora of spiritual truths which are revealed in both the Old and New Covenant writings, which most of us Christians call The Bible. We have only to seek and we will both find and understand those truths, for they are not held in reserve for a select few who call themselves Gnostics, but are there for all. (Matthew 7:7-10.)

 

[Evergreen48]

no, rather splitting heirs ... LOL?

Good one, stranger. It is good that you have a sense of humor.