Howdy all, some help with your theology please

[Avatar]

If you don't mind.

Recently I had a major falling out with a Calvinist on another board (we are both admins). She seemed to think Catholicism was nonsense, and was quite pleased to say so. Anyway, kinda hurt me. Also I couldn't effectively counter her arguments because I'm newly back to my faith, I was an Atheist from the age of about 11 to 30, a Deist until last year. Sooo,

Can I ask a few questions?

-Like, why do you think God created people just to send them to Hell? I know, romans 9, but I mean why?

-Why do you think God's goodness is proved by the fact that He saves even some of us from eternal torment? Shouldn't a good God save all His children? Or is that beyond His power?

-Do you think Mother Theresa is in Hell?

-Are you bible idolators? Do you know what that is?

There's more I want to ask, but that will make the thread unwieldy. Best, I think, to let the thread evolve, assuming anyone wants to participate. Pleased to meet you all,

 

[Defcon]

Can I ask a few questions?

Sure, I'll give this a shot but I'm sure my answers aren't exhaustive...

-Like, why do you think God created people just to send them to Hell? I know, romans 9, but I mean why?

I think this delves into the mysteries of God which we just have to have faith and trust His holiness, truth and grace. You mentioned Romans 9 and a portion of that fits this question:

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory"

Beyond that - I am not willing to speculate.

-Why do you think God's goodness is proved by the fact that He saves even some of us from eternal torment? Shouldn't a good God save all His children? Or is that beyond His power?

Well, these would be fair questions if we say that humans by default are worth saving. However, humans - by default - don't deserve to be saved. Therefore, that God elects and saves any humans is beyond anything He is required to do and thus shows His tremendous love and grace. The last two questions in this set appear to be universalistic based and the Scriptures clearly state that not all are saved. So the two established premises are that God is love yet He chooses not to save all He creates - at this point we submit to the authority of His word that both of these are true and read Scripture to further our understanding.

-Do you think Mother Theresa is in Hell?

Not familiar with Mother Theresa's specifics in faith but it is pretty simple - Did she recognize her sinfulness, trust solely Christ's sacrifice for her forgiveness of sin, then repent and submit to God's authority in her life? If so, then yes - she is in heaven. Otherwise, no.

-Are you bible idolators? Do you know what that is?

I assume this is asking if our theology worships the Bible itself - as a book. No, we don't worship written text - we worship the God who breathed it (2 Timothy 3:16) and submit to His Word given to us as authoritative.

Thanks for the questions, and I hope the sincerity continues for the rest of this thread. Nice to meet ya.

 

[Elderone]

-Do you think Mother Theresa is in Hell?

Our minister in Virginia met Mother Theresa and he states the first thing she asked him was, "Do you know the Lord Jesus?" If she practiced what she preached my answer would be that she is with God.

Pleased to meet you all,

Welcome. We may not agree on much but the people on this forum are polite and will answer your questions and treat you courteously.

 

[heymikey80]

Welcome back, and care for your own spiritual health. I hope we can help you with some of your questions.

Keep in mind, I'm answering from the heart. I'm not trying a rhetorical trap that I'm not caught in myself ... just saying off the cuff the way I see it.

-Like, why do you think God created people just to send them to Hell? I know, romans 9, but I mean why?

Well, most of us don't think God created people *just* to send them to Hell. But God does create people that His mercy doesn't rescue from death. I believe your own church's theology says exactly the same thing: God can save everyone; God doesn't save everyone. In both cases the unsaved has a will which disbelieves God. Right? So there's not quite so much difference between us as ... well many would think. Most of us are not hypercalvinists or fatalists: people don't want the submission and sacrifice that the love of God costs; people don't trust God to rescue them; people don't want to love their enemies, to never have a strong word for their neighbors, to avoid lust at every turn (Mt 5), they don't really seek God in all sincerity (Rom 3:9-19), but out of self-interest and self-preservation.

We've all severely offended God by our actions, thoughts, words, and desires, and "It takes more than your saline eyes to make things right." It takes a sacrifice viciously, painfully carried out on God the Son. God is interested in keeping that in mind: He hasn't cheapened that sacrifice down to where everybody gets it.

Actually we're less sure why anybody is rescued than why everyone isn't rescued. Nobody deserves it. So it sounds more ungrateful than just to us, to hear, "Why doesn't God save everybody?" Kinda like asking a fireman, "Why didn't you save every robber from that burning bank?" at his graveside.

But it does come back to Romans 9: if God told you something, would you believe Him? We start there. It's not like we have any control over what God tells us. Often God's very disconcerting. But we're going to believe it. God doesn't lie.

So it really comes down to asking us, "Why do you believe in the second law of thermodynamics? I know, like Newton and all, but I mean why?" It's a fact, we're told it by a trustworthy source. No guile. A serious look at Romans 9 might help explain more of why we believe it.

-Why do you think God's goodness is proved by the fact that He saves even some of us from eternal torment? Shouldn't a good God save all His children? Or is that beyond His power?

As I pointed out, nothing is beyond Him, but some things are beyond His willing mercy to rescue. The rescue of people in dire need tends to be at the rescuer's discretion. He decides. And essentially we've all lit the matches of our own Hell. We're not innocents, here. We're asking the only good Man in all this, to die to rescue us pyros. That's quite a selfish thing to ask. God's not interested in doing this for everybody. I'm not sure I'd be so impetuous to ask Him why not, but then I'm a little humbled by what He went through so far.

-Do you think Mother Theresa is in Hell?

No. Nor purgatory, either

-Are you bible idolators? Do you know what that is?

Depends on what you mean. Some take this so narrowly that any Bible quote is met with disgust. We take hold of the fact that the Bible has something more to tell us than "take it or leave it" type ideas, yes. Y'know what Abe told the rich man in Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man? "[Your brothers] have Moses and the prophets; let 'em listen to them. ... If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead."

The fact is, people who don't listen for the Spirit in the words of the Bible will only hear their own desires and arguments. In a sense the Bible challenges us to new ways of looking at things, making us grapple with hard realities.

Many of us believe the Bible is inerrant/infallible; most believe it's inspired. Few of us believe it's to be worshipped -- the God Who gave us the Bible is to be depended on, not our interpretation of His words.

'Hope it helps.

 

[Rick Otto]

So wh'ya think o' dem apples Avatar?

I can't believe you have 54,000+ posts and have only now begun to ask such great questions!
") (my Picasso Smiley)

 

[bulldogs10]

I apologize for your experience. Although Reformed people and Catholics disagree on many parts of doctrine, I hope you find Reformed people to be loving people in the future.

 

[Ryft]

A Calvinist on another board . . . seemed to think Catholicism was nonsense, and was quite pleased to say so. Anyway, kinda hurt me. Also I couldn't effectively counter her arguments because I'm newly back to my faith . . .

It's one thing for a person to state their case (that Catholicism is nonsense) and quite another thing for them to make their case. I was not there, obviously, so I cannot comment on the authenticity or integrity of her arguments, but your comments here imply that her arguments were considerable and fairly robust. If this is the case, then perhaps one should contemplate the arguments she was making. Truth stands quite independent of our feelings; that is to say, a positive or negative emotional response does not determine the truth value of an argument or position. I am not trying to invalidate your feelings or suggest they are of no consequence. It truly is unfortunate that your feelings were hurt in this exchange with her, but what is the ultimate concern here: your feelings or truth?

Why do you think God created people just to send them to Hell? I know, romans 9, but I mean why?

As heymikey80 already stated, even the Roman Catholic Church believes that God has the power to save all mankind and yet does not. You might argue that, in Catholicism, God does not create people "just to send them to Hell," but orthodox Calvinism affirms the same thing! With notable exception to the sparsely populated fanatical Supralapsarian fringe, Calvinism does not believe or teach that God creates people just to send them to Hell. The orthodox principle body of Calvinism is Infralapsarian; quotes from the Westminster Confession of Faith can be cited to this effect. (Even Catholicism has a few fanatical fringe groups whose beliefs do not accord with the orthodox principle body.) Mankind has sent himself to Hell, being morally responsible for his own choices. When we say that God sends someone to Hell, we are only speaking of the righteous consequence of his justice.

And Romans 9 does not talk about God creating people just to send them to Hell. Romans 9:22-24 is talking about why God does not immediately destroy those who openly defy him. God would not be unjust to destroy immediately all sinners, for that is precisely the just consequence of our sin. Yet he does not destroy us immediately; strangely, we are permitted to live. Why? Why would God, if he is willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endure with much patience those vessels of wrath fit only for destruction? "He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles" (vv. 23-24; NAS).

This passage does not say that God created people "just to send them to Hell." It says these vessels of wrath are deserving of destruction and yet are not destroyed, because of the riches of his glory which he makes known to the vessels of his saving mercy. If it was not for the glory and grace of God's purposes with the vessels of his mercy, the vessels of his wrath would have already been destroyed.

Why do you think God's goodness is proved by the fact that He saves even some of us from eternal torment? Shouldn't a good God save all His children? Or is that beyond His power?

The answer to this seems very obvious—or at least it should be, I think. God's goodness is proved in the saving of some because none deserve it! Not a single one, for all have sinned. No one deserves salvation. No one has, or even can, earn salvation in and of himself because we are all sinners. If God saved only one person, just one singular solitary person, that would prove his goodness because none deserve salvation. Yet he saves far more than just one; according to Scriptures, the number of the redeemed is an innumerable throng. Since he would have been just in delivering all mankind over to destruction, the fact that he saves any at all is a testimony to his utterly unspeakable glorious mercy.

Do you think Mother Theresa is in Hell?

No one can answer this, since none but God alone occupy the judgment seat.

Are you bible idolators? Do you know what that is?

Yes, it is a grossly inaccurate caricature of the sola scriptura principle, propagated by its detractors (usually Catholic). It is one of the most indefensible charges a Catholic can make, and one which very few people ever make precisely because it falls apart into a million pieces so easily and so quickly. I would recommend that you assiduously avoid falling into that indefensible belief. Scriptures are a vehicle of revelation, not an object of worship.

 

[Rhetor]

"With notable exception to the sparsely populated fanatical Supralapsarian fringe, Calvinism does not believe or teach that God creates people just to send them to Hell. The orthodox principle body of Calvinism is Infralapsarian; quotes from the Westminster Confession of Faith can be cited to this effect. (Even Catholicism has a few fanatical fringe groups whose beliefs do not accord with the orthodox principle body.) "

Just want to say that many members of the Reformed camp are Supralapsarian. It is usually estimated 10% are. Some of the best reformed theologians are e.g Perkins, Edwards, Rutherford, Dickson, Knox, Beza, Vos, Clark, Van Til?, Reymond, Pink. Please don't flame them or us as heretical. You are utterly wrong in your confessional appeal - The WCF refused to commit on the Supra/Infra issue after discussing it at length and was signed by both parties. It was even chaired by a Supra (Twisse). Since then both sides have lived together inside the reformed heritage, because the issue is one we can agree to disagree on.

Lampooning doesn't help either - Supra's don't believe that God created some people just to send them to hell. Calm down and be tollerant of your brothers, please, its a hair-splitting issue and hardly so crucial to the faith that we should label each other heretics.

 

[edie19]

. . . . Can I ask a few questions?

-Like, why do you think God created people just to send them to Hell? I know, romans 9, but I mean why?

-Why do you think God's goodness is proved by the fact that He saves even some of us from eternal torment? Shouldn't a good God save all His children? Or is that beyond His power?

I'm going to answer these together. God does all things for His glory - if that means that some of His creation goes to hell, so be it. As to the second part of the question - nothing is beyond His power. We're talking about the God who spoke the universe into being. I believe that what we need to realize in this situation is the fact that all of us deserve hell. I thank God regularly that He isn't fair, that He chooses to save some. I'm not going to question Him for not saving all.

-Do you think Mother Theresa is in Hell?

Mother Theresa was a woman revered world-wide. I worked for a physician who was from India - she wept when Mother Theresa passed. Is she in hell - I don't know, anymore than I know Hitler is in hell. I hope she isn't (and hope he is) and am confident that if she truly confessed Christ as her Lord and Savior, if she was truly converted that today she is in heaven worshipping that same Lord and Savior.

-Are you bible idolators? Do you know what that is?

I'm assuming that you're asking do we put more emphasis on the Bible than on God because of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. And no, we're not Bible idolators. We have great respect and love for Scripture because it is there that we see Christ in His fullness and glory (John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.) It is here that we learn our doctrine, that learn not only what we believe but why we believe it. It is the source of our knowledge and understanding. We put great emphasis on Scripture because the church founders put great emphasis on Scripture. Consider how many times Christ and His apostles said "It is written" or "What does Scripture say." They wanted the church to be familiar with and knowledgeable about Scripture.

There's more I want to ask, but that will make the thread unwieldy. Best, I think, to let the thread evolve, assuming anyone wants to participate. Pleased to meet you all,

Glad to have you here - don't hesitate to ask questions. That's why this forum exists. And one thing I can state unequivocally, those of the Calvinist/Reformed tradition love to talk doctrine. You'll get plenty of fellowship and discussion here.

edie