How would you recognize Christ if you met Him?

[Quijote]

If Christ were here today how would you recognize Him? Do you think that He would be recognized by any official church? 1 Thesselonians 5:2 refers to Christ returning like a “thief in the night”. What do you think that this means?

Aren't we suppoused to recognize Christ in the destitute, poor, afflicted, suffering?

I don't recognize Christ on those as much as I should. I must do better.

 

[tentex25]

Christ appeared in the Old Testament. I believe He was one of the Three that appeared to Abram and the trees of Mamre. (trees?, something at Mamre.) One of the "figures" claimed to be God, therefore that would have been Jesus. I wonder if Abram recognized Him?

 

[Leah]

nay, my lady, methinketh thou art not wrong in this thine most wise and Scriptural assessment.

Thank you.

Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ shall return with the sound of the trumpet and the voice of the Archangel, the great discriminating Judgement shall take place

The discriminating Judgement, eh? Never heard of it that way, either.

 

[mike1reynolds]

There are several modern artists who are depicting Jesus in a full range of emotions. One does have him with his head thrown back just roaring with laughter. It's wonderful.

Who is the artist? I would really like to see that.

Thief in the night is an idiom meaning suddenly, without warning, don't know when, etc.

It means stealth. It is not sudden to the thief. Look at it from His point of view. He’s only got 144,000 on His side but first He has to find them, initially He is all alone, so He will have to be stealthy. Suddenness isn’t going to help Him, but stealth will.

Thesselonians immediately follows this idiom with reference to destruction coming suddenly and unexpectedly, but it doesn't say anything to suggest that there is no build up and that Christ gathers His flock in a flash.

So the point is that it is true that when Jesus returns we will not know him, but God knows him and if God is within us we will know him. So appearence is not important but a faithful understanding that Jesus knows his own sheep and his sheep know him is what we say.

I would certainly agree that this applies to the 144,000, but if Christians interpret scripture in such widely varying manners, not all of which can possibly be right, then how would they be any better at this much more advanced and complex task of recognizing the messiah?

…groups [like Moonies] claiming that their leader is the fulfillment of the prophecy of the second coming, and so it is no surprise that most Christians are very uncomfortable with this line of reasoning/questioning. […] By which they argue that the prophesy of the second comming of Jesus can be fulfilled in a completely different person. This natually goes along with a very different view of Christology than traditional Christianity which holds that Jesus is, was, and was always God. So the question is just how much of Christian theology you are suggesting be thrown out the window in this question you are asking.

Certainly this is my most controversial point and I was cringing a bit when I had to bring it out, but it seems to me an unavoidable issue in the subject of recognizing Christ. If it is avoidable then the subject isn’t an issue at all, but then He couldn’t be a thief in the night.

There is an odd segregation in Revelations, the lamb that was slain is referred to in many different ways but never directly as Jesus. I think that the thread about Michael being the “preIncarnation” of Jesus is interesting because both the arguments and some of the counter-arguments are convincing, i.e. it doesn’t always refer to an angel vs. it isn’t Jesus. It is never discussed but I think that Michael could refer to the general of the angelic army in Revelations as someone distinct from Jesus.

Furthermore, there is the question of what you think this appearance of Jesus is supposed to accomplish. The second coming can always be recognized the accomplishment of the tasks which are the purpose of the second coming according to scripture.

I would call this the shock and awe scenario vs. the thief in the night scenario. If He is stealthy then there is no widespread shock and awe initially. Eventually He rules with an iron rod, but He has to mature and His early years are imperiled. It is in the early years that recognition is a critical issue. If I don’t recognize Him until He has already turned the world around then I’ll be too late to help, I’ll have missed out. Since there are only 144,000 that will recognize Him initially, the odds don’t seem very good to me.

Honestly I do not know if I would. I certainly think he would be recognizable as extraordinary good and loving person. The difficulty is going to arise if he openly claims to be Christ, for that is certainly a serious matter. Most Christians will look for a consistency with their understanding of the scriptures.

I think that this is part and parcel of being a thief in the night, He won’t openly declare Himself. He will be looking only for the 144,000 who can help Him turn things around.

Do you think that He would be recognized by any official church?

Not unless he conforms to their expectations according to their interpretations of the scriptures.

Actually, the ultimate assumption is that He subsumes all religion (or most of it) when ruling the world with an iron rod. Added to this is my supposition that there is a build-up to His rulership and that it doesn’t simply happen in a flash.

 

[relspace]

I would call this the shock and awe scenario vs. the thief in the night scenario. If He is stealthy then there is no widespread shock and awe initially. Eventually He rules with an iron rod, but He has to mature and His early years are imperiled. It is in the early years that recognition is a critical issue. If I don’t recognize Him until He has already turned the world around then I’ll be too late to help, I’ll have missed out. Since there are only 144,000 that will recognize Him initially, the odds don’t seem very good to me.


I think that this is part and parcel of being a thief in the night, He won’t openly declare Himself. He will be looking only for the 144,000 who can help Him turn things around.

If Jesus comes to fulfill the second coming "as a thief in the night" according to what you and the moonies suggest, then it will be very hard for the devoutly religious to receive Him just as it was 2000 years ago. If He does not proclaim Himself openly then the circustances under which He would be persecuted would not be common in today's world, at least not in an area of the world where I am likely to be in a position to help Him anyway. Otherwise, I would hope to be the kind of person who at least can be a friend because I see Jesus in all people and take offense at none, at least, not without very good reasons, anyway. I would hope that as champion of religious freedom, I would at least defend His right to pursue His religious beliefs without persecution.

Actually, the ultimate assumption is that He subsumes all religion (or most of it) when ruling the world with an iron rod. Added to this is my supposition that there is a build-up to His rulership and that it doesn’t simply happen in a flash.

A goal like that (gaining power quietly and uniting all the religions), which is also a goal of Rev. Moon by the way, increases the likelihood that He will be seen as an anti-Christ by many many Christians. For this is more compatable with their interpretations of the scriptures in regards to the anti-Christ than in regards to the second coming of Christ.

 

[lmnop9876]

Thank you.

thou art most welcome, my lady

The discriminating Judgement, eh? Never heard of it that way, either.

nay, for it is not most commonly used among the modern pastors and preachers, who prefer to speak of the "rapture" and "millenial reign" of our God. but a discriminating judgment it is, for God shall then discriminate between those who be justified by the blood and righteousness of Christ, and those who be not, as Jesus saith, the goats upon the left hand, the sheep upon the right.

 

[catlover]

We would recognize Him as we do today.

I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Exactly.

 

[humbledbyhim]

Jesus would be the one surrounded by the millions of angels making all the loud noises of praises at the arrival of the King.

 

[mike1reynolds]

If Jesus comes to fulfill the second coming "as a thief in the night" according to what you and the moonies suggest, then it will be very hard for the devoutly religious to receive Him just as it was 2000 years ago.

When Christ rules with an iron rod I hardly think that the devoutly religious would be able to dismiss Him. I’m suggesting that the thief in the night refers to an interim period. I doubt that this is what the Moonies would say.

If He does not proclaim Himself openly then the circustances under which He would be persecuted would not be common in today's world, at least not in an area of the world where I am likely to be in a position to help Him anyway.

The question is, what sort of help would He need. I think that you are thinking exclusively in terms of political/religious activism, financial aid or some other kind of material aid. That is not what I am talking about at all.

I was watching EWTN and saw a documentary on Church sanctified apparitions of the holy mother, I saw her referred to on this board as the Mediatrix of Grace. What really struck me is what she said to a nun in Japan, “Priest will turn against priest, cardinal will turn against cardinal, the Church will be ripped apart and Satan will be hardest on God’s consecrated souls.” Christ would obviously be trying to reach these consecrated souls and combat Satan’s persecution of them. So the whole question of how to help revolves around what form Satan’s persecution can take and how it can be combated.

Otherwise, I would hope to be the kind of person who at least can be a friend because I see Jesus in all people and take offense at none, at least, not without very good reasons, anyway. I would hope that as champion of religious freedom, I would at least defend His right to pursue His religious beliefs without persecution.

I don’t think that religious beliefs will play a very big role in the matter. Dealing with spiritual afflictions is a rather arcane subject in most religions.

A goal like that (gaining power quietly and uniting all the religions), which is also a goal of Rev. Moon by the way, increases the likelihood that He will be seen as an anti-Christ by many many Christians. For this is more compatable with their interpretations of the scriptures in regards to the anti-Christ than in regards to the second coming of Christ.

Gaining what kind of power? Once again, you are thinking primarily in political and material terms, which is of course how the antichrist will operate, but not Christ.

 

[Dustyoldguy]

If Christ were here today how would you recognize Him? Do you think that He would be recognized by any official church? 1 Thesselonians 5:2 refers to Christ returning like a “thief in the night”. What do you think that this means?

That scripture is in reference to His second coming. The bible says that he sends angels to test us. I'm not quite sure if we can recognise Christ, in the exception that He reveals Himself to us and makes Himself known to us.

After the resurrection, there where two of His disciples walking on a long road with Him, they did not recognise Him. His apostles did not immediately recognise Him. And there are a few other cases for this.

If you truly want to know Christ fully, study His Word as often as you can, at least 5 times a week, (I say this, because sometimes I don't read for a day or two). It is best to study daily.

Christ is the "Word of God", the bible is "God's Word", all that we can ever learn of Christ comes directly from the bible. With out it, faith in Him would be virtually impossible.

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

The real question to ask here is whether He will recognize us.

Matt 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

 

[mike1reynolds]

The real question to ask here is whether He will recognize us.

That is an excellent point, but I think that the two questions are largely interwoven. Those that He will recognize will probably be much quicker to recognize Him.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

This is one of my favorite verses. It would seem to refer to some modern day Christian sects, if not too a segment of all, probably some more so than others. It could even conceivably be a reference to all organized religious institutions at the end times. So who can you trust? Especially for “God’s consecrated souls” suffering from extremely advanced spiritual afflictions? For them the subject of who to trust would take on a much greater and immediate importance than for most people.

 

[relspace]

When Christ rules with an iron rod I hardly think that the devoutly religious would be able to dismiss Him. I’m suggesting that the thief in the night refers to an interim period. I doubt that this is what the Moonies would say.

Your responses to my post made so little sense to me, that I see little point in responding most of it. Instead I will look at just this first response to point out why it makes no sense. First you want to know about Christ comming as a "thief in the night", then you respond to my comment by pointing to a later time when Christ is obvious to all. Ok so Christ eventually rules with a rod of iron, so what? What does that have to do with how people will respond to Christ during the time when he is as a "theif in the night"?

And what in the world are you saying that the Moonies would say? That Rev. Moon will not be victorious in the end? That Rev. Moon will not accomplish his goal of ruling with a rod of iron? These sound like things that we would say. These sound like things that any sane person would say. But these do not sound like things that the Moonies would say.

Rest of your responses make no sense either because the only important aspect of method which we were talking about is power growing unseen as opposed to obvious to all. Is the methods of the anti-Christ political or demonic? Is the methods of the Christ political or divine? You may be interested in such topics but I did not think that this is what we were talking about at all. If you want to talk about this then I would ask you how you could judge between them and in order for me to understand what you mean by political, I would ask you how a path to ruling with a rod of iron would not be called political.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Your responses to my post made so little sense to me, that I see little point in responding most of it. Instead I will look at just this first response to point out why it makes no sense. First you want to know about Christ comming as a "thief in the night", then you respond to my comment by pointing to a later time when Christ is obvious to all. Ok so Christ eventually rules with a rod of iron, so what? What does that have to do with how people will respond to Christ during the time when he is as a "theif in the night"?

In the specific context, I was referring to how Moon is stuck in the thief mode and can’t seem to get beyond it, but in a more general context I was referring simply to making the distinction. Most seem to approach this subject by trying to diminish the distinction to a minimal or nonexistent possibility.

And what in the world are you saying that the Moonies would say? That Rev. Moon will not be victorious in the end? That Rev. Moon will not accomplish his goal of ruling with a rod of iron? These sound like things that we would say. These sound like things that any sane person would say. But these do not sound like things that the Moonies would say.

My point was that a false prophet would have to have a means for accounting for how he is perpetually still a thief in the night even after having declared himself openly. The real Second Coming wouldn’t have to worry about that because once He was done helping and working on the worst victims of Satan’s wrath He would have time for everyone else. Going public would not be a struggle in and of itself the way it is for false prophets. The hurtle is getting good help as opposed to trying to get as many people as possible no matter what the quality.

Rest of your responses make no sense either because the only important aspect of method which we were talking about is power growing unseen as opposed to obvious to all. Is the methods of the anti-Christ political or demonic? Is the methods of the Christ political or divine? You may be interested in such topics but I did not think that this is what we were talking about at all. If you want to talk about this then I would ask you how you could judge between them and in order for me to understand what you mean by political, I would ask you how a path to ruling with a rod of iron would not be called political.

You are mixing and matching the two periods again. Finding and healing the scattered 144,000 would most likely not involve a political process. He can only control politics if He has openly declared Himself. With the help of 144,000 disciples that could heal the sick and cast out demons I think that His political influence would be dramatic, but while looking for those 144,000 media attention could be a serious hindrance.

 

[Eruliel]

I went to a series of seminars on Eternity and the return of Christ. He was talking about verses in Psalms that talk about how those who are dead cannot praise God, and yet to God the death of his servants are of a good thing.

The conclusion to his speeches were that the Return of the Lord happens at every Christians death. So that when Abraham died he went immediatly to the end of time and the return of Christ, so it's like he woke up in heaven ready to come down and meet his descendants (spiritual and physical) in the air. One of the verses the speaker used to illustrate that was the theif in the night verse.
None of us knows when we're going to die, death comes as a theif in the night, so if we go to the return of Christ immediatly at our death, then his return would indeed come as a theif in the night. So it's like you wake up, and then you turn around to go back.

Also, if we die and then go to be immediatly in the presence of the Lord, then Jesus'll be recognizable because he'll be the first person you see. He's the Lord, you'll immediatly be in his presence. One flash of the eye and bam you're there.

Slainte!
Eruliel

 

[graysparrow]

We would recognize Him as we do today.

I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 

[espen]

Jesus himself gives us a good description of how his return will be in Matthew 24.
See also
Mark 13:26
Mark 14:62
Revelation 1:7
Matthew 24 23-40
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Those who believes in Christ and know his words will be better equipped to recognize him. If we do not study the word and know his teachings we can more easily be led astray and be decieved. We will know the false prophets by their fruits (Matthew 7:16).

John 10 4-8
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.


As for the passage where he walkes with two of the diciples and they do not recognize him, the answer is given here:


Luke 24:16

16But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.


And later


Luke 24 30:31
30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.



It seems that Jesus choose to close their eyes so that they would not know him. Maybe it isn't so much about us recognizing him but it is he who open our eyes so that we recognize him?
If Jesus was here today and wanted you to recognize him you would, but if he didn't your eyes would probably also be closed.