How would you feel if non-Christians went to heaven?

Digit · Mar 23, 2007

Well they are certainly allowed to, but from what I have learned recently, this is by and large true. Christianity is the only religion to have a figure, our God, come to earth and forgive sins. Teach, claim He is God and have recordings from other historians of these events, outside the Bible.

Cheers,
Digit

InterestedAtheist · Mar 23, 2007

Digit said:
Well they are certainly allowed to, but from what I have learned recently, this is by and large true. Christianity is the only religion to have a figure, our God, come to earth and forgive sins. Teach, claim He is God and have recordings from other historians of these events, outside the Bible.

Cheers,
Digit

You may want to reexamine your evidence, Digit. It might not be so conclusive as you think.

Digit · Mar 23, 2007

InterestedAtheist said:
You may want to reexamine your evidence, Digit. It might not be so conclusive as you think.

Ok, er, do you want to say something more other than, "I don't think so."? I mean I am not closed to learning something new. So if you feel something is in error suggest your alternative?

Digit

Springrain · Mar 23, 2007

I would think my prayers had been answered.

"My Jesus forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell and lead all souls to heaven, especially those in need of Thy mercy."

This I pray everyday.

InterestedAtheist · Mar 23, 2007

Well, Digit, I didn't really come here to debate - not this time, in this forum - but what I was thinking is this:

Is Christ a unique figure? Of course, each figure is unique, every person is unique, but we do find a lot of god-figures that match many of Christ's characteristics - son of a God, God living on earth, sent for our sins, died and was resurrected...it does seem as if Christ doesn't especially stand out against other religions through history, and I'm sure you can find out about some of them.

However, even if Christ was unique among all religious figures, this wouldn't prove anything. So it would be interesting to see if there is any documentary evidence for Jesus Christ.

Now the issue has been discussed a lot, and I've seen several discussions of it on these forums. There may or may not be evidence to show that a person called Jesus (or Yeshua) actually existed; but I don't believe there is documentary evidence outside the bible to show that he was a miracle-worker who died and was resurrected.

I'm not an authority on this, so I'd just suggest that you look into other religions, and the documentary evidence we have, or do not have, on the nature of early Christianity.

Springrain · Mar 23, 2007

If you are looking for our Sheppard...seek him amoung the lambs not the wolves.

heron · Mar 23, 2007

Notice that Digit qualified his remarks with "from what I have learned recently" -- I don't think he's trying to debate either.

but I don't believe there is documentary evidence outside the bible to show that he was a miracle-worker who died and was resurrected.

The historian Josephus (nonbeliever). Sadly, his words seem to have been glossed over by later leaders, and there are too many versions. Apparently he was quite abrasive. This is the Arabic version:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to themafter his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

(Remember that the Messiah then was considered a political deliverer.)http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/josephus.html

Digit · Mar 23, 2007

Also, when Jesus appeared to them after His crucifixion, it was not just to them, but to some 500 people. I have just glossed over an article that talks about several historical records that occur after the event of Jesus' life, and the author is saying that this cannot be used as evidence, because it occurs after the event.

I feel compelled to offer a fair and valid argument, compelled by God in fact. So in that regard, decide what you wish to classify as evidence. If you can accept writings from people who wrote about Jesus after his lifetime, then great. If not, that's ok too as it's your life and your choice, though it will sadden me.

Basically what it comes down to, for me, is that there is a complicated historical record, without error, and so many truths about love, life and relationships, that for a collection of books to have withstood such an enormous test of time and still be valid, I cannot accept any other reason than that they are true. What purpose would a group of people have, to make this up? And do you really think that man, could make something like this up, something so perfect and flawless?

I mean look at movies today. They have teams of hundreds, sometimes thousands working on them, and budgets of millions. They take years to make, and usually with the first few mins you can spot continuity errors. I can't accept the Bible is man-made.

I don't know all the answers, but I know enough to fuel my faith and belief in God Almighty. The rest I feel to be true.

All the best,
Digit

InterestedAtheist · Mar 23, 2007

Digit, it sounds as if you really wish to evaluate the Christian faith on the grounds of logic and reason. That's great! Quite often Christians have given me answers which, essentially, come down to their intuition and faith as being more important than the evidence available.

And by the way, when you ask me if I think Man - or Men - could have made up the bible, I'm afraid my answer is that yes, they could.

Accurate prophecies could validate the bible of course - but I'm afraid I've never come across any.

After saying all this, though, I should point out that I'm not at all an expert on the Bible - and I wouldn't want to debate about it here, on my own, because people listening to me might be misled. I prefer to keep debate to General Apologetics.

Digit · Mar 23, 2007

InterestedAtheist said:
Digit, it sounds as if you really wish to evaluate the Christian faith on the grounds of logic and reason. That's great! Quite often Christians have given me answers which, essentially, come down to their intuition and faith as being more important than the evidence available.

And by the way, when you ask me if I think Man - or Men - could have made up the bible, I'm afraid my answer is that yes, they could.

Accurate prophecies could validate the bible of course - but I'm afraid I've never come across any.

After saying all this, though, I should point out that I'm not at all an expert on the Bible - and I wouldn't want to debate about it here, on my own, because people listening to me might be misled. I prefer to keep debate to General Apologetics.

Half the reason, when I wasn't saved, that I got so wound up talking about these things with Christians, is because I basically knew jack-squat about the Bible and the religion as a whole. Once I began finding out more about it, you can see what happened. But anyhow, I know feel it's important to know the oppositions stance. It just makes for a more well rounded view.

So with that said, lets stop debating. I actually can't remember what this thread was about without reading back... >_>

Digit

Mobiosity · Mar 23, 2007

I'd LOVE IT!!!

Bluewing · Mar 23, 2007

Hey InterestedAtheist,

"How would you feel if nonbelievers - people from other religions and atheists - all went to heaven too?"

Of course I would be surprised, but totally delighted! I wouldn't give too much credit what those particular people are saying because it seems to deny the fact that hell wasn't created for man, rather for Satan and his traitorous demons.

Unfortunately, the Bible tells us that this won't be how it will unfold.

GreenMunchkin · Mar 24, 2007

Hiya, InterestedAtheist

I can only speak for myself, but I differentiate between atheists who simply don't believe, and atheists who simply hate God and spit pejorative vitriol about Him. I think being in heaven with the latter would be painful - just as it's painful being in the world with them.

Atheists or agnostics who feel they haven't experienced enough to accept Christ... I don't know. The idea of hell is awful, but there is enough evidence out there to say Jesus IS the Living God. So people are ultimately choosing their own fate, and as much as it pains God, He loves everyone enough to allow them to make their own choices. That speaks to His generosity.

A personal opinion is that I want to see my unsaved friends and family in heaven, but beyond that I don't know. I certainly wouldn't want to share eternity with someone who hates God. God doesn't condemn anyone to hell. He would never ever do that. He loves every single one of us equally. But nor can He force people to accept His gift of salvation.

DArceri · Mar 25, 2007

InterestedAtheist said:
Well, Digit, I didn't really come here to debate - not this time, in this forum - but what I was thinking is this:

Is Christ a unique figure? Of course, each figure is unique, every person is unique, but we do find a lot of god-figures that match many of Christ's characteristics - son of a God, God living on earth, sent for our sins, died and was resurrected...it does seem as if Christ doesn't especially stand out against other religions through history, and I'm sure you can find out about some of them.

NAME ONE ....

Mobiosity · Mar 25, 2007

So, IA, what do you think of the answers so far?

039 · Mar 25, 2007

darceri said:
NAME ONE ....

I believe he's referring to the anti-christ arguement of comparing christianity to pagan deities such as that of Osiris, Krishna, Dionysus, and Mithras. It's a pretty textbook arguement and is often expanded to imply that the practices and beliefs of christianity derived from these myths (in most cases, a post hoc fallacy). It doesn't prove christianity is merely a myth like those of the paganistic beliefs of old, but only begs the question as such based on said simularities. However, about the uniqueness of christ: even if all the simularities were sound and evident, the validity of something doesn't require uniqueness. A good portion of these claims to simularity are either baseless, twisting of terms, or apparently not very simular at all, as well. There's plenty of apologetic material on such things, as well.

InterestedAtheist · Mar 25, 2007

Hi again, sorry for leaving for a little while. I think it's really nice to see such friendly attitudes. Surely if God is good he will not leave your hopes unfulfilled.

I was talking about other gods such as Mithras, Osiris, Dionysus, etc., yes. The existence of such characters with elements in common with Jesus - virgin birth, miracles, raised from the dead, etc. - is not of course proof that Jesus was a myth; but if people can make up one story about a God come to earth, why can't they make up another?

I am aware of Robert Turkel's articles at Tektonics; but frankly I find him such a nasty piece of work I don't much like to visit his website.

039 · Mar 26, 2007

I agree, he does tend to be a bit over the top, even insulting sometimes, but that doesn't change the fact that the information is good.

That's also true, if one could make up a story, so could another. I don't think that is a very good reason to doubt as that could be applyed to anything.

For example, someone wrote a book about terrorists crashing a plane into the world trade center before it ever happened. Having just read that book and having heard the news in real life, would you have doubted?

Gaudete · Mar 26, 2007

I hope everyone will choose love/God and that we will all get to Heaven (!!!) but unfortunately I don't think that everyone will. ...but we (christians) sure don't WANT people to go to hell!

Mobiosity · Mar 26, 2007

Gaudete said:
I hope everyone will choose love/God and that we will all get to Heaven (!!!) but unfortunately I don't think that everyone will. ...but we (christians) sure don't WANT people to go to hell!

Rock On!

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