How we do church...

[clinzey]

I'd like your answers -- How do we do church in such a way to make it attractive to borderline Christians and non-Christians without totally giving in to the "seeker-sensitive" approach. I do not want "prayer" as an answer from anyone, that's an obvious answer. I mean, what can we do to make our services interesting to an outsider?

 

[reformedfan]

http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID23682|CHID125043|CIID1716514,00.html
Isn't about what you are asking, per say, but it does raise an interesting point I think you are unaware of. Look for the stuff on Lee Strobel
Worship is God-centric, it is the worship of the sovereign creator of the heavens and earth. It is not an evangelism tool, a pick-me-up for the coming week, a social club, a place to network, etc.
Now if you already know that, let me proceed. If a heathen comes into my church & feels comfortable, the pastor hasn't done a good job. Isaiah was cut to the heart when he had a vision of the throne room in heaven, Ezekiel was in a coma like stupor for a week after beholding scenes in heaven, John was so overcome he bowed down to an angel in Revelation, Peter went nuts for a minute, babbling after the transfiguration, and you want heathens to come to church cuz it's attractive!?!
How 'bout install Lazy-Boys, for the comfort of visitors? How 'bout offer headphones tuned into the sports event on the radio, in case the pastor mentions stuff that makes the sinner squirm? How 'bout have waitresses, a full service kitchen & a computerized food ordering system so noone is disturbed by other people's dining requests? How 'bout take a moment to go around the room and everyone 'shares' what they'd like to see happen in a worship service? How bout hold a lottery every week for some luck stiff to win a gift certificate, cash, vouchers, house cleaning, back rubs, etc? How bout have the pastor on a big tv screen, hooked up to cable, so if 'seekers' change their mind, they can just change the channel? Let me know if you want any further help, I'm sure I can come up with lotsa more dandy ways to trick people into going to church & liking it.

 

[clinzey]

Worship is God-centric, it is the worship of the sovereign creator of the heavens and earth. It is not an evangelism tool, a pick-me-up for the coming week, a social club, a place to network, etc.

Read my post, you will see that I specifically said I did not mean giving in to -seeker-sensitive stuff. I'm talking about keeping it real (I hate that phrase, but that's what I mean) and still non-threatening for outsiders.

If a heathen comes into my church & feels comfortable, the pastor hasn't done a good job.

This is a surprisingly un-Christian attitude. Jesus went out of his way to make the sinners and outcasts comfortable. He ministered to them on their level . This is all I was asking. In this day and age, how do we do that? If you have no serious reply, don't even bother.

 

[reformedfan]

[Read my post, you will see that I specifically said I did not mean giving in to -seeker-sensitive stuff. I'm talking about keeping it real (I hate that phrase, but that's what I mean) and still non-threatening for outsiders.

You are right, I am sorry, I thought my ideas were great, and they were solely for my amusement. I am glad you're not looking for seeker-sensitive, or you'll end up a mega church.


This is a surprisingly un-Christian attitude. Jesus went out of his way to make the sinners and outcasts comfortable. He ministered to them on their level . This is all I was asking. In this day and age, how do we do that? If you have no serious reply, don't even bother.

Now gimme a break. What about Isaiah (The true believer in Christ by faith) Ezekiel (ditto) Peter(same) etc? God doesn't seek to make sinners comfortable, that's contrary toi HIs nature. Unless someone is supremely uncomfortable with their standing before a holy God, they will fail to see the point of Christ's substitutionary death, and not convert. Did Christ say, "your life is your business, here's a miracle for ya?" or did He say, "go & sin no more."; "your sins are forgiven, but knock it off from now on", etc?
Heathens don't need comfort, they need Christ. If they go to church, that is evidence the Lord is working in their heart. What He plans to do with them- save them or add to their damnation, I have no clue.
Getting people into church isn't the goal of the great commision, it's one of the blessed results. There's a guy in my church with a heathen relative, & whenever this relative is in town the Christian guy just squirms at what a strong gospel message the relative is getting. Utterly shameful! Take her somewhere her ears'll be tickled if that's whatcha want, I figure. Keep shielding 'em from the gospel- the road to hell is paved with goods intentions I heard or read somewhere once.
Sorry about the humor, please forgive me. I wasn't mocking you, just thoughts that mega church planters have that seek to make God's hatred for sin something shameful to be hidden or glossed over. No offense!

 

[marc]

Teach the word, live the word, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

 

[pmarquette]

Matthew 25.32-42 outreaches

be known for what you do ....
build up relationships ...
seek to build the kingdom with the weak and insignificant
your church should explode with people ... who love
both you and the lord , for they have seen Him in you

 

[Eusebios]

I understand the desire here, and 5 years ago, Iwould have been asking the same questions. Through my exposure to and coming into the Orthodox Church however, I tend now to lean more towarde the ideas expressed by reformedfan. It is not meant to be a comfortable place. There is nothing comfortable about taking up one's cross and following Christ, nothing comfortable about repentance, nothing comfortable about battling the passions.
I appreciate the fact that you don't desire a seeker sensitive situation as it tends to seriously dilute the message of the Gospel. I would strongly encourage you to think about visiting your local Orthodox Church. Little has changed there for at least the last millenia, and yet people keep coming. Taste and see, taste and see.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.

 

[clinzey]

It is not meant to be a comfortable place. There is nothing comfortable about taking up one's cross and following Christ, nothing comfortable about repentance, nothing comfortable about battling the passions.

I disagree. Taking up one's cross is the job of a disciple. I'm not talking about dealing with believers and disciples. I'm talking about the "others," the kind of people for whom Jesus went out of his way to show kindness and love and comfort.

 

[Eusebios]

I didn't mean to imply that thereisn't room for compassion and understanding, thw worship service however, imho, is not the place to do such work. Charitable and other outreaches are the place these things should take place.
His unworthy sevant,
Eusebios.

 

[clinzey]

I didn't mean to imply that thereisn't room for compassion and understanding, thw worship service however, imho, is not the place to do such work. Charitable and other outreaches are the place these things should take place.

Then shouldn't we be doing more of those things? We have examples in the gospels of Jesus praying, fasting, being in the synagogue/temple, but the bulk of his time was out with the people. Shouldn't the church shift its priorities? We place the worship service and "self-care" higher than Jesus did.

 

[Eusebios]

Then shouldn't we be doing more of those things? We have examples in the gospels of Jesus praying, fasting, being in the synagogue/temple, but the bulk of his time was out with the people. Shouldn't the church shift its priorities? We place the worship service and "self-care" higher than Jesus did.

This is a very interesting question or questions to think about, thank you for posting them. I'm not sure that we necessarily have to shift priorities, rather we need to come to a better understabding of the place and importance of each. Without working on the interior, there is doubt as to whether those external deeds will bear fruit. Not that any cup of cold water given in Christ's name will return void, rather that one given in the true spirit of Christ, a spirit of inner peace will be exponentially more effective. I often meditate on the advice of St. Seraphim of Sarov (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/seraphim_e.htm) who said," obtain the spirit of peace and thousands around you will find salvation.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.