How was Paul saved and when ?

[Duckybill]

The reason they were baptized in Jesus' Name:

Colossians 2:9 (NKJV)
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

Colossians 3:17 (NKJV)
17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

 

[razeontherock]

Lord have mercy!

"they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus"

"They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus"

"be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ"

When I was baptized as an adult, the Pastor doing it explained to me he would do so "in the Name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Ghost - in the Name of Jesus," specifically to bypass these silly disputes. I thought it was rather well-thought out! If anybody asks me "were you Baptized in the Name of _______ ?" I can answer "yes" either way.

It amazes me people make an issue of this. Strain at gnats if we must, just don't swallow camels

 

[Duckybill]

There is not one instance in the NT of water baptism of anyone in the Name of the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit". Not one.

 

[Duckybill]

It amazes me people make an issue of this. Strain at gnats if we must, just don't swallow camels

The reason I am pressing is that if we must be baptized to be saved then how important is it that it is done correctly? It is obvious that some would say that others aren't saved because they aren't baptized correctly. I don't believe that baptism is mandatory for salvation. Even though I was baptized.

 

[winsome]

You can think what you like but I think there a lot of Christians who haven't been baptized, who are truly saved. It is not mandatory for salvation. You just said so.

I said it was the normal way for salvation.

Baptism is the normal way that Jesus gave us to be saved. That doesn’t means that there are no exceptional circumstances when God will act in a different way if he chooses. He is merciful and just. What we have to avoid is trying to claim that the exceptional circumstances are normal and then dismissing the normal. It’s not up to us to put aside what God has given us and do it our way.

Exceptions don’t invalidate the normal way.

If someone puts their faith in Christ but refuses to be baptized. Can they then be truly said to have put their faith in Christ if they refuse to do what he commands and use the normal method of salvation he has given them?

 

[winsome]

There is not one instance in the NT of water baptism of anyone in the Name of the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit". Not one.

Are you suggesting that the apostles deliberately ignored what Jesus said in Mt 28:19 ?

The Didache was a first century liturgical manual, probably contemporary with at least some of the apostles. It says:

"Regarding baptism, baptise thus. After giving the forgoing instructions, "Baptise in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit in running water. But if you have no running water, baptise in any other..."

This shows the baptismal formula

 

[Duckybill]

If someone puts their faith in Christ but refuses to be baptized. Can they then be truly said to have put their faith in Christ if they refuse to do what he commands and use the normal method of salvation he has given them?

You wrote:
"Jesus instituted baptism as the means of salvation just before is ascension:"

Such is not the case. Salvation is by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

You can't earn salvation by your works.

 

[A New Dawn]

Far from being "pretty out there" Apollos is doing a great (and very patient) explanation of the belief of the vast majority of Christians, and has been the belief of the vast majority of Christians for 2,000 years.

I realize that some denominations hold the belief that one must be baptized in order to be saved, but according to scripture, that is putting the cart before the horse. Baptism is a work and it follows belief. There are a vast number of Christians who believe that, also.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19)

You notice that the baptizing comes after the making disciples part, right?

And when one assumes the "lecturing a small child tone", that is condescending, and I choose not to discuss things with someone who carries a condescending attitude.

 

[winsome]

I realize that some denominations hold the belief that one must be baptized in order to be saved, but according to scripture, that is putting the cart before the horse. Baptism is a work and it follows belief. There are a vast number of Christians who believe that, also.

Baptism is the work of God.

In Baptism (with water):

1. Our sins are forgiven
2. we are born again, renewed, and made children of God
3. we are incorporated into the body of Christ, the Church
4. we are given the Holy Spirit

This is not a dead work but the work of Christ who brings us into his kingdom out of darkness and the power of Satan.

You notice that the baptizing comes after the making disciples part, right?

Baptism is how people become disciples. You proclaim the gospel and then baptise those that beleive.
He said to them, “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:15-16)
[/quote]

 

[winsome]

You wrote:
"Jesus instituted baptism as the means of salvation just before is ascension:"

Such is not the case. Salvation is by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

You can't earn salvation by your works.

Baptism is how you receive the grace.

Baptism is not a work of man but a work of God - see my post to New Dawn above.

 

[Duckybill]

Baptism is how you receive the grace.

No way!

Baptism is not a work of man but a work of God - see my post to New Dawn above.

It is a work. It is something you do.

 

[A New Dawn]

Baptism is the work of God.

In Baptism (with water):

1. Our sins are forgiven
2. we are born again, renewed, and made children of God
3. we are incorporated into the body of Christ, the Church
4. we are given the Holy Spirit

This is not a dead work but the work of Christ who brings us into his kingdom out of darkness and the power of Satan.


Baptism is how people become disciples. You proclaim the gospel and then baptise those that beleive.
He said to them, “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:15-16)

But belief comes before baptism. Salvation comes through the belief, therefore baptism is not a requirement for salvation (justification). Baptism is a commandment the Lord expects his follower to do, but it is not required for justification. It is part of sanctification.

 

[winsome]

No way!

It is a work. It is something you do.

It's something God does

Can you forgive sins?
Can you renew yourself and make yourself a child of God?
Can you incorporate yourself into the body of Christ?
Can you get the Holy Spirit of your own power?

It's God's work

 

[winsome]

But belief comes before baptism. Salvation comes through the belief, therefore baptism is not a requirement for salvation (justification). Baptism is a commandment the Lord expects his follower to do, but it is not required for justification. It is part of sanctification.

Paul says “But you were washed [baptised], you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1Cor 6:11)


Baptism is pre-figured in the Old Testament. Peter gives us one example when he says about Noah and his family being saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now (2Pet 3:20-21). So baptism brings salvation.

Jesus himself associates baptism with salvation. Just before he ascends to heaven he said the apostles: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16).

Jesus ties salvation to baptism in John 3:3-5
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot re-enter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Jesus says we have to be born from above (v3) and indicates how this is to be done in verse 5 – born of water and spirit.

In Acts 2:41 we learn: Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. Added to what? Well, added to the Church, added to those saved as it tells us in verse 47: And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

The scriptural evidence is clear.

This was also the understanding of the early Church. The following two quotes come from apostolic times.

[FONT=&quot]A man is dead before he receives the seal, he puts off death and receives life. The seal, therefore is water. The dead go down into the water and come out of it living The Shepherd 9:16:3 (AD 80)

This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up, bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus in the Spirit. Letter to Barnabus chap 11 (70-131 AD)

[/FONT]

 

[Duckybill]

It's something God does

You're kidding, right? God baptizes us in water?

Can you forgive sins?
Can you renew yourself and make yourself a child of God?
Can you incorporate yourself into the body of Christ?
Can you get the Holy Spirit of your own power?

It's God's work

So you're saying God baptizes us in water, personally? I don't get you at all.

 

[winsome]

You're kidding, right? God baptizes us in water?

So you're saying God baptizes us in water, personally? I don't get you at all.

We pour the water and say the words that Jesus told us to say.

It's God who forgives sins, renews us, makes us his children etc.

It's the way God works. He involves us in some minor way in his creative or saving work. He doesn't have to but he chooses to.

God created the world but he asked Adam to name the animals. This involved Adam in God's work of creation. But we don't think that Adam created the world.

When God killed all the first born in Egypt he told the Israelites to put blood on their doorposts so that he would know whose houses they were and pass over. He didn't need to do this. He knew perfectly well who were Egyptians and who were Israelites. He chose to involve the Israelites in his saving work. But we don't think is was the Israelites that slaughtered the Egyptian first born.

When God parted the red sea to save the Israelites from the pursuing Egyptians he told Moses to stretch his hand over the sea. God involved Moses in his saving work. But we don't think Moses saved the Israelites.

When the Israelites fought the Amalekites God told Moses to stand on the hill and raise his arms. When Moses kept his arms raised the battle went in favour of Israel. God involved Moses in his work. But we don't think Moses won the battle.

It’s the same today. God has not changed. He wants to get involved with our messy physical world, and he wants us to play our part, tiny though it is, in the salvation process. He has given us rituals, actions to do, and has tied promises to them. His is the power but he wants us to do our little bit. We do not earn his saving grace, but we do it because he wants us to. God can, and does sometimes, act without these acts of ours, but nevertheless he has tied promised to them and he does fulfil his promises. It's the way he chooses to involve us.

 

[A New Dawn]

Paul says “But you were washed [baptised], you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1Cor 6:11)


Baptism is pre-figured in the Old Testament. Peter gives us one example when he says about Noah and his family being saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now (2Pet 3:20-21). So baptism brings salvation.

Jesus himself associates baptism with salvation. Just before he ascends to heaven he said the apostles: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16).

Jesus ties salvation to baptism in John 3:3-5
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot re-enter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Jesus says we have to be born from above (v3) and indicates how this is to be done in verse 5 – born of water and spirit.

In Acts 2:41 we learn: Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. Added to what? Well, added to the Church, added to those saved as it tells us in verse 47: And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

The scriptural evidence is clear.

This was also the understanding of the early Church. The following two quotes come from apostolic times.

[FONT=&quot]A man is dead before he receives the seal, he puts off death and receives life. The seal, therefore is water. The dead go down into the water and come out of it living The Shepherd 9:16:3 (AD 80)

This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up, bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus in the Spirit. Letter to Barnabus chap 11 (70-131 AD)

[/FONT]

As I said to Apollos, you are reading your own personal bias into the scriptures. Being "born again" was a new concept with Christ, and when Nicodemus heard him use that phrase, his natural inclination was to think of his physical birth. Christ likened spiritual birth to physical birth in that passage. You can believe all you want that that passage is about baptism, but baptism is not mentioned at all there.

Yes, the scriptures are clear. They are clear that belief preceeds baptism, and they are also clear that salvation accompanies belief. Therefore, salvation preceeds baptism, also.

 

[winsome]

As I said to Apollos, you are reading your own personal bias into the scriptures. Being "born again" was a new concept with Christ, and when Nicodemus heard him use that phrase, his natural inclination was to think of his physical birth. Christ likened spiritual birth to physical birth in that passage. You can believe all you want that that passage is about baptism, but baptism is not mentioned at all there.

Yes, the scriptures are clear. They are clear that belief preceeds baptism, and they are also clear that salvation accompanies belief. Therefore, salvation preceeds baptism, also.

As usual you make claims but provide no evidence for them.

I provide scriptures but you ignore them.

Jesus said
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
Sounds simple to me. Do you have an alternative explanation?

Peter refers to Noah being saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.
Which part of This prefigured baptism, Baptism, which saves you now do you find difficult to understand?

Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. Added to what? Well, added to those saved as it tells us in verse 47: And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.
Which part of this do you find difficult to understand?

Paul says “But you were washed [baptised], you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
What alternative to baptism do you have for this?

I await your answers

 

[JDS]

Jesus said
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
Sounds simple to me. Do you have an alternative explanation?

Yes! Peter is the apostle to the Jews. His ministry in the NT was not longer than about 12 years. He is not mentioned again after Acts 15 when the apostle Paul took center stage as he went to the gentiles with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is the condition for the Jews to receive the Holy Ghost, who was given from heaven on the feast day of Pentecost, Receiving the Holy Ghost is a synonym of being saved. Here is what he told them:

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is a strictly Jewish context, and if you read it, it will prove itself.

This was true also of the Samaritans in Acts 8. It took apostolic authority for them to receive the Holy Ghost, though they were already baptized.

Ac 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.


BUT THEY WERE NOT SAVED
YET

Ac 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (both of them were apostles)

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Did you get that? Baptism did not save these people.

Here is why the apostle had to confirm their faith:

Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them (thje 11 apostles) again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. (With his same authority)

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


If you did not get that, you should read it again.

It was the apostles ministry to say whether the Samaritans would receive forgiveness of sins and the Holy Ghost. Peter retained the sins of Simon!!

But look at Acts 10 when the gospel went to gentiles for the first time.

Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Now,there can be no doubt that gentiles received the Holy Ghost when they believed and before they were baptized. They were then told to be baptized but not so they could be more saved.

In case anyone were to doubt they were saved by receiving the holy Ghost, we have this explanation by Peter to the Jerusalem church.

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


The Holy Ghost falling on them when they believed was salvation to them, according to Peter.

The gentiles never were required to repent and be baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sins to receive the Holy Ghost. However, the Jews did during the entire apostolic age while Israel had a national identity.



7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

 

[Apollos1]

Dawn -

I would apologize if I thought I had been condescending to you - but I wasn't. Sometimes written words are read in a way that other misunderstand. However, you should apologize to me and the other readers here for being disingenuous in as much as you refuse to answer so many points & questions that were put before you.

Your exit from our discussion came at a time much too convenient... for you I think.

Just in case you want to make the attempt, here is that challaenge in my last post to you...

Apollos1 previously requested:

CHALLENGE: Find ANYWHERE in scripture where the word WATER is used to refer to the amnionic/embryonic fluid of a woman when giving birth.
Do that for me Dawn !!!

The reference to “water breaking” is of English origin, unknown in scripture, and is erroneously applied to John 3 in order to teach error.

Any answers yet? Maybe one will dawn....on you.