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Wrong againthe sin was laid on Adam not Eve,
The bible doesn’t say anything about what Eve said. Where are you getting all this from? Are you getting this from a movie or something because none of this is actually in the Bible.Note that in the passage, Eve does not specifically tell Adam he won't die, nor does Adam confront her about it. She gives it to him, he eats. There was no tricking or deceiving.
Adam was more culpable; it wasn't deception but rather his own pride combined with peer pressure that moved him to disobey. But to say that he had such complete knowledge that he understood what sin and death truly meant, is to go against the grain of the whole story of the fall and salvation. Adam would come to directly experience evil, which sin and death comprise. All of humanity have that experience daily in this world now, the knowledge of good and evil. And Adam and Eve presumably gained wisdom by that experience so that when God came knocking at their door, they opened it and allowed Him back in again. Presumably, we don't know anyone's eternal fate with certaintyIf that was the case, why was God to a degree, more lenient on Eve? There was a curse, but also a promise of redemption.
Adam just got cursed. It's Adam's sin not Eve's sin.
I think Adam was aware and made the choice anyway.
it makes a lot more things make sense, like the end of marriage - there won't be a single relationship with any one person that can compete for loyalty to the relationship with God, as there was with Adam.
God gave Eve the honor though, and that it would be through a woman alone, without a male human father.There’s a couple problems with this statement. First Eve came from Adam, second Eve didn’t have any offspring without Adam. All men are descendants of Adam. Mary was a descendant of Adam.
She was punished for doing wrong, but the main blame for the curse on the world, and death entering the world, was laid on Adam. Not Eve.Wrong again
”To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”“
Genesis 3:16 NASB1995
Why was Eve punished if the sin was not laid on her?
You're right, it doesn't, and that's the point Neither in that passage, nor in Adam telling God his excuse, is Eve said to have deceived Adam.The bible doesn’t say anything about what Eve said. Where are you getting all this from? Are you getting this from a movie or something because none of this is actually in the Bible.
That isn't in the scripture at all.”When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.“
Genesis 3:6 NASB1995
There is no record of any dialogue at all between Adam & Eve about eating the fruit. The only thing we can infer from this is that both of them knew that it was a sin and both of them willingly indulged in it. Therefore their desire to sin was already present before they actually committed the sin. When they picked the fruit from the tree for the purpose of eating it the desire for sin was already present in them before they actually broke the commandment against eating it. They didn’t create a sinful nature for everyone who followed they already had a sinful nature from the very beginning because they are autonomous sentient beings with free will. That is the source of sin. Saying that sin is the source of our sinful nature is circular reasoning.
Adam was more culpable; it wasn't deception but rather his own pride combined with peer pressure that moved him to disobey. But to say that he had such complete knowledge that he understood what sin and death truly meant, is to go against the grain of the whole story of the fall and salvation. Adam would come to directly experience evil, which sin and death comprise. All of humanity have that experience daily in this world now, the knowledge of good and evil. And Adam and Eve presumably gained wisdom by that experience so that when God came knocking at their door, they opened it and allowed Him back in again. Presumably, we don't know anyone's eternal fate with certainty
This world is a stepping stone, back to the God man rejected in Eden. There's a reason God wants us here: to learn, by experience, revelation, and grace. We're all born prodigals, experiencing the pigsty, relatively speaking.God wouldn't be fair if He gave them a consequence they couldn't understand for an action.
Like with a child if you tell them not to play in the street because a car might hit them and they might die they don't understand death and thus the consequence is meaningless to them and they don't know why they shouldn't play in the street.
Instead a parent will give them a consequence they do understand: punishment by the parent.
so 3 options:
1. God gave them a consequence they didn't understand, and then additionally punished them on top of death when they did something they didn't even understand.
2. They understood the consequence but didn't believe it would actually happen (what happened to Eve, someone else told her God was lying and holding things back from her, and she believed that), God therefore punishes the one who deceived.
3. They knew the consequences and made the choice for some other reason (IE Adam preferring to die with his wife than life without her), this is a full conscious choice, and therefore warrants the most severe punishment.
I think 2 and 3 are more likely, 1 is very unlikely as God's smarter than mortal parents and would know giving a consequence that made no sense would be an ineffective deterrent.
Adam is a figurative character representing all of us.We often hear that we are able to sin because of our “sin nature” which we inherited from Adam. How was Adam able to sin without already having a “sin nature” and how was his ability to choose sin any different from our own? It seems, biologically, socially, and psychologically Adam was just as human as us.
Imagine your intelligent and promising young child (say 5-8 years old) hears an older kid suggest that parents are wrong a lot, and really, worse, they are just trying to keep kids down....Like with a child if you tell them not to play in the street because a car might hit them and they might die they don't understand death and thus the consequence is meaningless to them and they don't know why they shouldn't play in the street.
This world is a stepping stone, back to the God man rejected in Eden. There's a reason God wants us here: to learn, by experience, revelation, and grace. We're all born prodigals, experiencing the pigsty, relatively speaking.
If Adam believed God, or knew what he was going to experience, do you think he would've disobeyed? What would be the point? Adam thought that he knew better; that was the problem. He needed to come to believe God, that He was right and perfect in His wisdom after all. And that first act is called faith. It's to acknowledge God as God.God wouldn't be fair if He gave them a consequence they couldn't understand for an action.
God knows how bad the consequences of disobedience are. He told them about it. God knows good and evil but they didn't yet know the evil that would come, they knew only good, having never experienced anything else, nothing to contrast it with. And they didn't believe Him.God wouldn't be fair if He gave them a consequence they couldn't understand for an action.
the alternative is that Adam made an informed decision, but made a bad value judgement. Valuing his wife over God.If Adam believed God, or knew what he was going to experience, do you think he would've obeyed? What would be the point? Adam thought that he knew better; that was the problem. He needed to come to believe God, that He was right and perfect in His wisdom after all. And that first act is called faith. It's to acknowledge God as God.
And neither did I. But this type of speculation is going nowhere anyway. I disagree with your assessment. To me, it doesn’t sound consistent with the overall message of the bible, with historic speculations, or with reason. Informed decision? I guess we should all prefer death then, knowing what it is as we do. I guess the main thing we can say with conviction, in line with Anselm, if I recall, is that Adam sinned because he willed to sin, simple as that. We can’t go a great deal further. And we must come to do the opposite.Because the bible does not say Adam was deceived
And neither did I. But this type of speculation is going nowhere anyway. I disagree with your assessment. To me, it doesn’t sound consistent with the overall message of the bible, with historic speculations, or with reason. Informed decision? I guess we should all prefer death then, knowing what it is as we do. I guess the main thing we can say with conviction, in line with Anselm, if I recall, is that Adam sinned because he willed to sin, simple as that. We can’t go a great deal further. And we must come to do the opposite.
Yes! That's good. But why did Adam allow his wife to affect/influence Him over God? That's the question. That's the sin. That's what needs to be overcome in all of humanity-so that we'll begin to value and heed God and His voice first above all else, above all created things. IOW, we need to come to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. That's what Adam lacked in Eden and that's what God's been seeking to cultivate in us ever since, patiently, with many necessary steps down through the centuries including the giving of the Law, the Law that reflects love but that cannot accomplish the obedience in us that only love can. Augustine summed it up this way, consistent with Romans 7 and elsewhere:Isn't ultimately all sin valuing something over God?
my speculation is just what that thing was, going based on eternal consequences of it, and how God phrased His judgement. "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife"
But the thing is, Genesis 3 isn't specific about Adam's motivations.Yes! That's good. But why did Adam allow his wife to affect/influence Him over God? That's the question. That's the sin. That's what needs to be overcome in all of humanity-so that we'll begin to value and heed God and His voice first above all else, above all created things. IOW, we need to come to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. That's what Adam lacked in Eden and that's what God's been seeking to cultivate in us ever since, patiently, with many necessary steps down through the centuries including the giving of the Law, the Law that reflects love but that cannot accomplish the obedience in us that only love can. Augustine summed it up this way, consistent with Romans 7 and elsewhere:
"The law was therefore given in order that grace might be sought; grace was given in order that the law might be fulfilled."
And by his act Adam was also trying to be like God, following his tempter's path in his own pride. We're faced with the same decision as to who or what we'll follow. A teaching I'm familiar with puts it this way:
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".279
So that is the lesson that can be learned, and the end result is...22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
I don't think it matters. Because disobedience of God necessitates pride in any case, necessitates my believing that whatever I do for whatever reason I do it is superior to or more important than God's will.But the thing is, Genesis 3 isn't specific about Adam's motivations.
That's speculation. Adam exalted his own opinion above God's or else he could never disobey. There may well have been mitigating circumstances that lessened his culpability but to disobey God is foolishness in any case.But considering his status is redeemable, and all man's status under him is redeemable, it seems to be a different motivation than Satan's motivation, which was overthrow God.
When a created, rational being with free will comes to value God above all else, he has it all; he's "arrived". As with Abraham, we can trust that God is good and will do the right thing no matter what he asks of us. Adam wasn't there yet.If you value God, He provides, if you value things over God, you lose out and the things you have become meaningless anyway.
I think about, if Adam had valued God over Eve, didn't listen to her, and obeyed God, Okay Eve would have perished, I'm not sure how this would play into the salvation plan because this is a hypothetical, but Eve would perish, Adam would live. Would God have just.. given Adam a new wife? When Job lost his family and remained faithful in his testing, God replaced the family he had lost, and gave him more wealth than he had lost.
Yes, it's corrected by our coming to know God, that He's merciful trustworthy, all-wise, and incomparably lovable. Part of that lesson comes as we exist apart from Him, in a world that so often devalues and dismisses and tramples upon truth and mercy and trust and love, due to their autonomy from Him.But main point there is, this sin can be corrected with a lesson. It's not a comfortable lesson. But it is a lesson that can teach love of God.
Yes, we all play different roles. God is all about the salvation of man, leading him from satan's realm and way to His.In Satan's case, teaching him he cannot overthrow God does not redeem him, you may subdue him with the lesson, but he'll never love God, he'll always harbor that desire to replace him and have power himself. Not if the pride is too central to him and cannot be broken. Nebuchadnezzar got humbled, his pride got broken with severe enough chastisement. Nebuchadnezzar I think, had pride in ignorance, while Satan has pride while having knowledge of the truth, a bit different I suppose.
More speculation. I came to study many things, including other religions and the bible and the patristics and sometimes the thoughts of a "great theologian" or two and ended up over many years modifying or leaving behind some beliefs, some of which were very much like your own. I never just say "ditto", but only quote people who agree with me, IOW, assuming that their "greatness" may at least carry more weight than just one more guy on the internet.I find it of less value to just.. take what is traditionally taught and roll with that. There's not really a lot of meditation done if you have a question some "great theologian" in the past had an answer and you just say "ditto"
I don't know if he exalted, like we're both agreeing on, the passage itself gives very little about Adam's mindset.That's speculation. Adam exalted his own opinion above God's or else he could never disobey. There may well have been mitigating circumstances that lessened his culpability but to disobey God is foolishness in any case.
and yet Abraham still messed up some times. both the times he lied about his wife and then.. well. IshmaelWhen a created, rational being with free will comes to value God above all else, he has it all; he's "arrived". As with Abraham, we can trust that God is good and will do the right thing no matter what he asks of us. Adam wasn't there yet.
What I mean is like, some people will have a question, something ambiguous in scripture, such as Adam's motivation, and they may research it, and other people will have come with their speculation in the past, wrote about it, and people accept it as doctrine. They'll read one of those writings and say "oh well, it's because of that, matter concluded" and I'm looking at it through the lens that if it's not scripture, it's fallible, anyone can be wrong, and so these traditional great theologian writers, can be wrong, just like I can be wrong. It's their speculation, just as I am speculating.More speculation. I came to study many things, including other religions and the bible and the patristics and sometimes the thoughts of a "great theologian" or two and ended up over many years modifying or leaving behind some beliefs, some of which were very much like your own. I never just say "ditto", but only quote people who agree with me, IOW, assuming that their "greatness" may at least carry more weight than just one more guy on the internet.
Fait enough, perhaps, and yet we observe the traces of his family tradition in each other and within ourselves everyday: the unreasonable pride and self-righteousness that keeps us separated from God, from each other, and even from ourselves to one degree or another-and which can cause great harm to each other. Sumpthin's wrong here on planet earth, if we're willing to examine it, and only humility before God cures it.I don't know if he exalted, like we're both agreeing on, the passage itself gives very little about Adam's mindset.
Adam was given the fruit, and he ate, there was no description of his mindset, which is why this becomes open to speculation, and when he confesses, and he immediately knew he had done wrong (hence trying to hide, shame). Some people when Adam is confessing his sin, lean into the fact that he mentioned his wife that he was blaming her, as Eve had blamed the serpent but, the text doesn't really say that it just states factually, she gave the fruit, and I did eat.
There doesn't seem to be a statement of pride there just.. fact.
I never said he was perfect, but his faith in God certainly serves as a model for the right way for a human to proceed.and yet Abraham still messed up some times. both the times he lied about his wife and then.. well. Ishmael
Sure, and that's not what I do, as I said. OTOH, if I happen to be in line with a great many believers, great and small, who've maintained a consistent belief down through the centuries, I don't mind. Either way there have been many, many opinions regarding the story of creation and the Fall, and also some weeding out of some rather absurd ones. The basic teachings on Genesis 1-3 end up comparatively minimalistic, while those chapters still provide much fodder for further pondering.What I mean is like, some people will have a question, something ambiguous in scripture, such as Adam's motivation, and they may research it, and other people will have come with their speculation in the past, wrote about it, and people accept it as doctrine. They'll read one of those writings and say "oh well, it's because of that, matter concluded" and I'm looking at it through the lens that if it's not scripture, it's fallible, anyone can be wrong, and so these traditional great theologian writers, can be wrong, just like I can be wrong. It's their speculation, just as I am speculating.
There are still people who do this, Catholics and Protestants alike. Its just a remnant of human shame that's been operable since the Fall and Catholic teaching opposes it. But marriage and procreation are simply God's will for man on earth- and aren't described or designated any other way.and it has been an idea that marriage is ended as a consequence of Adam's sin. Most other people seem to think marriage and procreation were creations related to the fall, in fact and excuse me for saying this I have heard of some Catholics who allegorize the forbidden fruit as being sexuality itself, and that God's original plan was Josephite marriage, citing 1 Corinthians 7:1 and Revelation 14:4
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