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How valuable is online fellowship?

yeshuaslavejeff

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Start 'very' slow/ cautiously/ testing everything. A lot more people will cause unjust hurt and pain (short and long term) than care and help and lift up others in truth in CHRIST JESUS.
Think of family keeping in contact by snail mail - letters even every day, but censored as they were for Corrie ten Boom in the nazi concentration camp when everything was taken away from them (as an extreme example to start to understand when possible)....
Every letter read, analyzed, scrutinized, and with penalties if Corrie tried to get a candy bar or tried to get news of what was happening to the outside ..... it was trial and error for many learning who they could trust with their lives.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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as one who is often lonely and doesn't have too many close friends,
online fellowship is very important to me.I am on facebook alot during the day and love being on here.
The only problem with CF being our main source of socialising, is that small issues can be blown out of proportion. I try to remind myself that I am not here to please others or boost my popularity.I'm here to learn more about God, to enjoy the moment and stay in touch with others' perspective.
 
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mnphysicist

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I have no problem with online theological debate, encouragement and lively banter among believers, but I do not consider it fellowship. I used to, though. I feel that online relationships represent a strong illusion of closeness. You think you have friends, but when hard times hit, they're not going to be there for you. Even when good times hit, they're not going to be there. If you don't believe me, then try inviting someone from the forum to dinner sometime. Get someone to help you move. The excuse is distance, but a true friend could take the time off and buy the airplane ticket. At the end of the day, these are only words.

The church for the most part creates a similar illusion of closeness. Sure, there are some exceptions, one might have a few folks from church they are truly friends with, but by and large, for the most part in good or in bad, the church won't be there for you, and neither will online... but a few friends, whether online or offline, from church, or not from church probably will be. I think back to when my wife passed away, the last folks I wanted to deal with were people from church, so I came in late and left early for the first few months. And fwiw, I've been invited out to dinner with CF folks, and have done the same with other online folks. I even drove 5 hours and worked all night long to fix an online friends car, even though we'd never met each other before.

Online relationships are anonymous. There's no accountability. Most of the time your "friends" are people you've never seen, whose real names you don't know, whose phone numbers you've never called.
Its the same deal with church, most folks names I don't know, and I certainly don't know their phone numbers. Beyond that, even if one did, unless one has already built up a relationship, they aren't going to answer an unknown caller ID.

Online relationships are easy, but by similar reasoning they're also cheap. There's no real investment, no commitment, no inconvenience. If someone makes you uncomfortable, you can make them disappear with a click.
And the same happens in physical proximity, folks can be ignored.
Online relationships have no physical proximity. I've walked into churches and felt the Holy Spirit. I've walked into most and felt nothing. I walked into one and felt a demon. What I feel when I'm online is more a factor of my own situation than that of an online "location," which is something that doesn't even exist.
I'm leery to attribute feelings to the presence of the Holy Spirit or lack there of. Granted, some physical locations can be really creepy.

Online fellowship is public, vulnerable and recorded. Sooner or later persecution is going to come. All online relationships and this entire network of believers will be dissolved, at best, or used to track us down and destroy us, at worst. Physical word of mouth may be less effective a mode of communication, but offline relationships and communications are much harder to trace and intercept. This may not be much of an issue, yet, but when the hammer does fall, it will be too late to form the necessary real relationships if they do not already exist.

And church records, including financial ones and massive databases exist as well, plus the NSA has metadata at its fingertips. If they want to persecute you, they will. Alas, when the chips are down local social capital is really important, but it comes from ones community and neighborhood, the church much less so.

Rites cannot be performed online. Communion cannot persist online. Nor can baptism. Church offices are not held. Tithing and offering, along with all that the cash flow means to local and missionary efforts comes to a crawl. Your online mentor cannot marry nor bury you.
That is a challenge, but had it not been for online resources and mentors, I doubt I could have planned and performed the graveside services for my late wife. Pastor was swamped and was heading out on vacation, so it came down to me to put things together as well as do the readings and homily stuff. Without the online stuff, it would have been a nightmare. That being said, Paul did talk about baptism for the dead in 1 Cor 15... so while I am not convinced that online sacraments are wise practice (Gnosticism is a real danger with this)... I'm not convinced they are impossible.

Marriage. It's going to become an issue not just for the church, but for society at large. The distance, socially, between people is increasing with the advancement in technology. You can see it in nations such as Japan, who had this level of technology before us, that while we sustain a great number more relationships, the ability to form close relationships is greatly hampered. This has its effect on courtship and marriage. More so, it has a strong effect on the ability of a person to meet and develop a close and meaningful relationship with a member of the opposite sex...
This I do happen to agree with, but there are many other factors driving this as well... but then again I am an old guy, who shakes his head at youngsters out dating with heads buried in their phones... not that seniors who are phone savvy are any better at it. Then again, maybe I am too much a luddite, despite tech being my career path Lol

In all seriousness though, the societal change in interpersonal relationship skill is very concerning. I don't know what the answer is... perhaps the pendulum will need to swing through a few generations before we get a handle on it. Alas, population growth is slowing, and if we are to be caretakers of God's creation, its not necessarily a bad thing. We don't need to hit 2050 only to find out we can't game agriculture enough to put food on the table anymore due to overpopulation... and yet, we are loosing something too. Its not an easy thing by any means.

...who not only happens to be a Christian, but also has similar doctrine and values (denomination). People love to berate the diversity of Christian doctrine, but the fact remains that it does exist, and a marriage needs more agreement than simply that Christ died and rose again.
And while I agree that marriage needs more than agreement on Christ's resurrection... one also has to consider that even if two folks are at the same place with their walk with Christ when they get married, its pretty likely they will be in and out of sync with each other through out their lives, and that's irrespective of the church they attend. Successful Christian marriages requires folks to deal with theological disputes just as much as financial ones... short of one or both spouses doing the doormat thing just to keep the peace.

The physical church is an awesome thing, but its not perfect nor blameless. The body of Christ otoh, is much much larger than a local physical gathering of similar minded believers, rather it is the entirety of all who walk with Christ, past, present, and future, in physical proximity, as well as those who are far from being able to do so. Online fellowship can show us glimpses of the body of Christ as a whole, that one in a local gathering is unlikely to ever experience... and yet, there are social skills that only develop with close physical interaction over a period of time. Each can have a place in each individuals life, some will lean one way more than the other, and I think thats ok.
 
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Hidden In Him

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It should never be a substitute for meeting and sharing the Eucharist with real life flesh and blood people. Christians participating in discussions online from all parts of the world are a fine thing yet the Eucharist and receiving fellowship in person is a million times more important.

Why, Kiwi? Don't worry, I don't get ugly with people. But I do take issue with this position. Why do you think this?
 
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Hidden In Him

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To me, online fellowship, at best, means being able to discuss details about Christian things, even technical details that have a narrow audience, because of being able to find people with as great an interest.

Yes. I debate issues on different levels. I take great interest in threads like this one because they are of vital importance to the body of Christ I believe. Yet I also (and this is what your statement has inspired me to say) find great value in finding good Christian scholarly friends, who I would not have contact with otherwise. I've already met two here who I am very impressed with.

I would be so happy if I would find a few persons who would discuss the same things from the exact same sources with me and to be able to find some friend among them. I'm lacking synergy. I've been in this state of partial loneliness for a while now, and I would like to make a good impression on some, on forums, in local Churches, and break out of the worst part of the isolation I'm in. Now don't get me wrong, there's nothing in particular to remark about the tenets of faith I believe in, I just want to delve more deeply into research, reading the Bible even more...

I believe the friends I mentioned would be more than happy to talk to you, and make friends with you in the process. The thing is, when it comes to sources, you may have to accept that fact that when you get into fellowship with more educated believers, you are inevitably going to get into the original languages as your sources. All translation, now matter of what language, will be sufficient to discuss in-depth analysis of the word of God. But I certainly feel for you in regard to the isolationist thing, and you are welcome to discuss matters with me anytime you like, even if only through private conversation. I always have to put a bit of a qualification here, in that I'm often quite busy, but that doesn't take away from the invitation. Message me any time you like.

And by the way, your post does make a good impression on me : )
 
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Hidden In Him

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I feel that online relationships represent a strong illusion of closeness. You think you have friends, but when hard times hit, they're not going to be there for you. Even when good times hit, they're not going to be there. If you don't believe me, then try inviting someone from the forum to dinner sometime. Get someone to help you move

This entire post is the best articulated argument for the weaknesses of online fellowship yet posted. But I agree with many of the responses given by mnphysicist. The points made here initially sound as if they are coming from personal experience, as if some disappointment has been experienced.

@Nonearoterragueous (your name is tough to write, btw): Don't you think many have also experienced these same things while being involved in a local church? I seem to recall someone saying just recently that this is virtually how he was being treated in an actual congregation, and that he grew tired of "giving, giving, giving" when it became increasingly clear to him that no one really cared about him, or would be there for him either.

And fwiw, I've been invited out to dinner with CF folks, and have done the same with other online folks. I even drove 5 hours and worked all night long to fix an online friends car, even though we'd never met each other before.

I have as well, major financial help, and on secular websites, let alone Christian ones.

Online relationships are easy, but by similar reasoning they're also cheap. There's no real investment, no commitment, no inconvenience. If someone makes you uncomfortable, you can make them disappear with a click.

Brother could I disagree with this one. Not gonna go into detail, but I have become MUCH closer to a few select people online than I ever have with anyone locally. And that includes at the present time.

I've walked into churches and felt the Holy Spirit. I've walked into most and felt nothing. I walked into one and felt a demon. What I feel when I'm online is more a factor of my own situation than that of an online "location," which is something that doesn't even exist

I suggest you pray to begin meeting the right people online. I recently had a discussion with another member here where the Holy Spirit was so deeply involved in the conversation that I was not even being allowed by the Spirit to respond in many ways. I will not go into detail - too sacred and personal - but I have never felt so under the strict control of the Holy Spirit as to what I could and could not say to this individual in my entire life.

Sooner or later persecution is going to come. All online relationships and this entire network of believers will be dissolved, at best, or used to track us down and destroy us, at worst. Physical word of mouth may be less effective a mode of communication, but offline relationships and communications are much harder to trace and intercept. This may not be much of an issue, yet, but when the hammer does fall, it will be too late to form the necessary real relationships if they do not already exist

With all due respect nonaeroterraqueous (learning to just copy it now), I know what you are saying here. But because of the strength that I now possess in the power of the Holy Spirit, I honestly couldn't care less who hears me. I hope they're learning something. And if they ever get the power to imprison and/or kill me someday, it will only be because the Lord Jesus Christ gave them that power, in which case it will serve His purposes and I am just fine with it.

To be continued...
 
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Hidden In Him

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Rites cannot be performed online. Communion cannot persist online. Nor can baptism. Church offices are not held.

This is the same argument that another member posted which I am now awaiting a reply to. Without trying to be contentious, I can promise you it has tremendous weaknesses in it.

Perhaps you've felt the Holy Spirit while participating in an online discussion, but did the group feel it?

I believe you said something about not replying. But it seems a strange request since you are presenting an argument, so I am going to reply anyway:

This is true anywhere. The Holy Spirit can fall and yet there will be some who feel His presence and some who do not. In fact, those who are a hindrance and a grievance to the Holy Spirit can keep His presence from fully manifesting in a congregational context, whereas the same might not be the case in private group conversations online, where you can very easily and discreetly restrict things down to only those who are invited. And again, if you contend that the Holy Spirt would not fall and be felt in such situations, I would have to strongly disagree with you.

If the internet is censored or shutdown tomorrow, how many of your online friends will you still be able to find and communicate with?

You're assuming the Living God, the Creator of the universe has no power or say in the matter.

How many baptisms have we witnessed in these forums?

This is about your only decent argument. My response would be ridiculously involved, so I won't even get into it.

If you were single, do you honestly think there would be any chance of meeting and developing a relationship with the right person in this forum?

Dear God yes. Especially if a Christian were more spiritual than carnal, and less interested in what the other member looked like than in who and what they were in Christ, which is inherent in the process from the start online. They might not reject someone God has for them flippantly before actually getting to know them, simply because that person didn't give them the hots on mere physical merits alone. Moreover, it allows for much more time actually getting to know one another before finally realizing "This is someone I could spend the rest of my life with," and without all the temptation that comes with building closeness in close physical proximity to one another.

Nonaeroterraqueous, you articulate your position well, but for whatever reason I honestly think you've closed your eyes to all the good that can come from online fellowship, which I personally think far, far outweighs the bad.
 
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brinny

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Online fellowship is better than coffee in da mornin'

nature-smiley-015.gif


i sooooo appreciate my online fellowship buddies. Just as a side note, BOTH are crucial, both in real life and online. It's really a seamless form of communication that can be mightily blessed by our delightful God....and can bless Him, and all who are joining in.

How delightful is THAT??!!!

7809ddb3b457b1d69f83b69614203042.jpg



4chsmu1.gif
 
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ToBeLoved

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The church for the most part creates a similar illusion of closeness. Sure, there are some exceptions, one might have a few folks from church they are truly friends with, but by and large, for the most part in good or in bad, the church won't be there for you, and neither will online... but a few friends, whether online or offline, from church, or not from church probably will be. I think back to when my wife passed away, the last folks I wanted to deal with were people from church, so I came in late and left early for the first few months. And fwiw, I've been invited out to dinner with CF folks, and have done the same with other online folks. I even drove 5 hours and worked all night long to fix an online friends car, even though we'd never met each other before.


Its the same deal with church, most folks names I don't know, and I certainly don't know their phone numbers. Beyond that, even if one did, unless one has already built up a relationship, they aren't going to answer an unknown caller ID.


And the same happens in physical proximity, folks can be ignored.

I'm leery to attribute feelings to the presence of the Holy Spirit or lack there of. Granted, some physical locations can be really creepy.



And church records, including financial ones and massive databases exist as well, plus the NSA has metadata at its fingertips. If they want to persecute you, they will. Alas, when the chips are down local social capital is really important, but it comes from ones community and neighborhood, the church much less so.

That is a challenge, but had it not been for online resources and mentors, I doubt I could have planned and performed the graveside services for my late wife. Pastor was swamped and was heading out on vacation, so it came down to me to put things together as well as do the readings and homily stuff. Without the online stuff, it would have been a nightmare. That being said, Paul did talk about baptism for the dead in 1 Cor 15... so while I am not convinced that online sacraments are wise practice (Gnosticism is a real danger with this)... I'm not convinced they are impossible.


This I do happen to agree with, but there are many other factors driving this as well... but then again I am an old guy, who shakes his head at youngsters out dating with heads buried in their phones... not that seniors who are phone savvy are any better at it. Then again, maybe I am too much a luddite, despite tech being my career path Lol

In all seriousness though, the societal change in interpersonal relationship skill is very concerning. I don't know what the answer is... perhaps the pendulum will need to swing through a few generations before we get a handle on it. Alas, population growth is slowing, and if we are to be caretakers of God's creation, its not necessarily a bad thing. We don't need to hit 2050 only to find out we can't game agriculture enough to put food on the table anymore due to overpopulation... and yet, we are loosing something too. Its not an easy thing by any means.


And while I agree that marriage needs more than agreement on Christ's resurrection... one also has to consider that even if two folks are at the same place with their walk with Christ when they get married, its pretty likely they will be in and out of sync with each other through out their lives, and that's irrespective of the church they attend. Successful Christian marriages requires folks to deal with theological disputes just as much as financial ones... short of one or both spouses doing the doormat thing just to keep the peace.

The physical church is an awesome thing, but its not perfect nor blameless. The body of Christ otoh, is much much larger than a local physical gathering of similar minded believers, rather it is the entirety of all who walk with Christ, past, present, and future, in physical proximity, as well as those who are far from being able to do so. Online fellowship can show us glimpses of the body of Christ as a whole, that one in a local gathering is unlikely to ever experience... and yet, there are social skills that only develop with close physical interaction over a period of time. Each can have a place in each individuals life, some will lean one way more than the other, and I think thats ok.
We find fellowship with like minded people and try to be what God commands us to be.

If we try to find the perfect situation anywhere, we probably will not. But that does not mean we should not try. Jesus commands us to love one another and I try to do that and edify others.

We all just do our best, online or in church, but the body of Christ is meant to be a body of belivers in Christ and that should be the aim of each of us, to try to do that.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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the last folks I wanted to deal with were people from church, so I came in late and left early for the first few months.
This haappens a loot , oops - A LOT -
and
is not a good sign of the condition of any assembly.

The assemblies in the NEW TESTAMENT are so much different -
FULL OF LIFE
joy, (overflowing every day , meeting every day)
peace, (nothing could take their peace away)
RIGHTEOUSNESS, (they all sought to keep torah, as JESUS taught),
HEALING, (lots and lots of healing, always healing (NOT everyone, all the time; but
DAILY healing, encouraging, LIVING, HOPE, UPLIFTING
daily WITH EACH OTHER....
daily WITH EACH OTHER
the secret? "follow JESUS" ---
daily with each other
"IN UNION" with JESUS MESSIAH.
not in unity
not in the same place,
not in the same doctrine,
not pretend,
DAILY "IN UNION" (as one) with JESUS and with the FATHER.
Literally true,
figuratively true,
absolutely true. "they lived in union with the son of GOD".
Every day.
 
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Hidden In Him

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"IN UNION" with JESUS MESSIAH.
not in unity
not in the same place,
not in the same doctrine,
not pretend,
DAILY "IN UNION" (as one) with JESUS and with the FATHER.

Wouldst seem I have underestimated you, my friend. Would appear you should be leading a congregation somewhere yourself.
:holy:
 
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ToBeLoved

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This haappens a loot , oops - A LOT -
and
is not a good sign of the condition of any assembly.

The assemblies in the NEW TESTAMENT are so much different -
FULL OF LIFE
joy, (overflowing every day , meeting every day)
peace, (nothing could take their peace away)
RIGHTEOUSNESS, (they all sought to keep torah, as JESUS taught),
HEALING, (lots and lots of healing, always healing (NOT everyone, all the time; but
DAILY healing, encouraging, LIVING, HOPE, UPLIFTING
daily WITH EACH OTHER....
daily WITH EACH OTHER
the secret? "follow JESUS" ---
daily with each other
"IN UNION" with JESUS MESSIAH.
not in unity
not in the same place,
not in the same doctrine,
not pretend,
DAILY "IN UNION" (as one) with JESUS and with the FATHER.
Literally true,
figuratively true,
absolutely true. "they lived in union with the son of GOD".
Every day.
Peter and Paul disagreed in the early years. It was not all hugs and kisses like you make it seem. It was God who eventually cleared things up with His visions to Peter.

Also, Paul writes about Judaizers coming into the church on purpose to take away the freedom of what they had in Christ. That was in the church from the start and still is today.

Come on now, I think you are idolizing the early church.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I suppose so.
Yes, in person I saw small fellowships bulldozed by big box churches,
(before I knew they were there) i.e. after the fact -
from the pastors of the small fellowships,

living body, 3 or 5 or 50 members, meeting daily, in peace and truth,
day after day sharing life, sharing JESUS , with one another,

then one day,
big brother, (george orwell),
big religion (jezebel?) ,
big business (million dollar buildings/ million dollar budgets) pastors
came
and told the little ones
"come, come join with us"
as
if <we don't have big teeth>
and
<we won't eat you or devour you>
and
most famous line by government and churches
or infamous
<we are here to help>
...
.
< shrugs >
anyway, long story short, after 2 or more big box churches went to the little bitty assemblies,
and told them
<you can't stay by yourselves, you have to join a big box>
and
the little bitty pastors
the little bitty assemblies
said
"no" (everyone was free to come or go before this anyway, and some of the little bitty ones DID used to go to the big box church)
but
"no" they weren't going to give up their living fellowship body,
to join the dead,
as JESUS said "let the dead bury their own dead",
so
then
the big bullies , "officially", (just like in communist Russia) ,
i.e. 'legally' with malice and forethought, full of evil ,
the
big bullies buldozed (literally and figuratively) the
itty bitty pastors church.
itty bitty assemblies
broken up - so they went wee wee wee all the way home,
and
had no place to go for LIVING BODY FELLOWSHIP
.....
...
..
until GOD
provided.
 
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W2L

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Yes, in person I saw small fellowships bulldozed by big box churches,
(before I knew they were there) i.e. after the fact -
from the pastors of the small fellowships,

living body, 3 or 5 or 50 members, meeting daily, in peace and truth,
day after day sharing life, sharing JESUS , with one another,

then one day,
big brother, (george orwell),
big religion (jezebel?) ,
big business (million dollar buildings/ million dollar budgets) pastors
came
and told the little ones
"come, come join with us"
as
if <we don't have big teeth>
and
<we won't eat you or devour you>
and
most famous line by government and churches
or infamous
<we are here to help>
...
.
< shrugs >
anyway, long story short, after 2 or more big box churches went to the little bitty assemblies,
and told them
<you can't stay by yourselves, you have to join a big box>
and
the little bitty pastors
the little bitty assemblies
said
"no" (everyone was free to come or go before this anyway, and some of the little bitty ones DID used to go to the big box church)
but
"no" they weren't going to give up their living fellowship body,
to join the dead,
as JESUS said "let the dead bury their own dead",
so
then
the big bullies , "officially", (just like in communist Russia) ,
i.e. 'legally' with malice and forethought, full of evil ,
the
big bullies buldozed (literally and figuratively) the
itty bitty pastors church.
itty bitty assemblies
broken up - so they went wee wee wee all the way home,
and
had no place to go for LIVING BODY FELLOWSHIP
.....
...
..
until GOD
provided.
Thank you for your words Jeff. :)
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes, in person I saw small fellowships bulldozed by big box churches,
(before I knew they were there) i.e. after the fact -
from the pastors of the small fellowships,

living body, 3 or 5 or 50 members, meeting daily, in peace and truth,
day after day sharing life, sharing JESUS , with one another,

then one day,
big brother, (george orwell),
big religion (jezebel?) ,
big business (million dollar buildings/ million dollar budgets) pastors
came
and told the little ones
"come, come join with us"
as
if <we don't have big teeth>
and
<we won't eat you or devour you>
and
most famous line by government and churches
or infamous
<we are here to help>
...
.
< shrugs >
anyway, long story short, after 2 or more big box churches went to the little bitty assemblies,
and told them
<you can't stay by yourselves, you have to join a big box>
and
the little bitty pastors
the little bitty assemblies
said
"no" (everyone was free to come or go before this anyway, and some of the little bitty ones DID used to go to the big box church)
but
"no" they weren't going to give up their living fellowship body,
to join the dead,
as JESUS said "let the dead bury their own dead",
so
then
the big bullies , "officially", (just like in communist Russia) ,
i.e. 'legally' with malice and forethought, full of evil ,
the
big bullies buldozed (literally and figuratively) the
itty bitty pastors church.
itty bitty assemblies
broken up - so they went wee wee wee all the way home,
and
had no place to go for LIVING BODY FELLOWSHIP
.....
...
..
until GOD
provided.
I think Rick Warren is a big part of the problem with his Purpose Driven Church book. He practically laid out how to do a big seeker friendly church in that book.
 
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