How to see the justice of eternal punishment

[MrSluagh]

Cat59: You ask if I can tell who will be punished eternally and why?

I can only tell you that I will not be. There are many others who have had the phenomenal experience of conversion (spiritual regeneration), and they can understand what I am maintaining.

Erm, my Bible-fu isn't so good, but doesn't the NT say somewhere that no one can know their final reward until they die?

 

[Cat59]

Cat59: You ask if I can tell who will be punished eternally and why?

I can only tell you that I will not be. There are many others who have had the phenomenal experience of conversion (spiritual regeneration), and they can understand what I am maintaining.


It is sure no great thing for a person to lower their pride enough for the Holy Spirit to wield His sword (the word of God Eph.6:17) and to circumcise their heart. (Col.2:11-12)

It is impossible for an unregenerated person to see the justice of God using eternal punishment. There does exist a line between the spiritual world and the carnal world. Until the unregenerate crosses that line, they will not be able to see, but when they do, there is no turning back to the way things were. The old things will never be the same to them after that.

There may not be unquestionable scripture stating that there is an eternal hell or other type of eternal punishment, but myself and many others, can see the spiritual justice for such a thing.

I asked you because at the begining you said this: (emphasis mine)

Only a person who has had their spiritual mind washed clean by the Holy Spirit (spiritually born-again Jn.3:3-8) is fully able to comprehend the nature of God's justice. The one's who think God is just a cruel tyrant for eternally punishing evil practicianers do not see the justice

I want to know who you define as being an "evil practitioner". To understand the nature of God's justice would presuppose a knowledge of who is going to be punished. Now, like you, I know I'm not going to be punished for all time in hell, but probably I believe that for different reasons than you. I am just curious how you can have so much faith in the justice of God without a clear idea of who he will send to hell and why.

 

[tocis]

I do not believe in eternal punishment; like I said earlier a loving God would never do that. Christianity is full of religion’s that is how God planned it; God is looking for seekers of the truth; which is the reality of who He really is. [...]

1. <mild irony> Yes, Odin Allfather is looking for seekers. That's how I arrived at his tribe. The only question here is: What have you done wrong so that you didn't find that way yet? </mild irony>
See? I can make statements without any explanations too.

2. Care to actually answer my question from posting #6?

EDIT: Oh wait, I confused you and Stinker. Forget about #2 then.

 

[Benoni]

1. <mild irony> Yes, Odin Allfather is looking for seekers. That's how I arrived at his tribe. The only question here is: What have you done wrong so that you didn't find that way yet? </mild irony>
See? I can make statements without any explanations too.

2. Care to actually answer my question from posting #6?

EDIT: Oh wait, I confused you and Stinker. Forget about #2 then.

Prov 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to
search out a matter.​

God does not change; He is God; but our understanding of God should always be changing. religion does not understand that simple point.

I understand your frustration; if God&#8217;s Word was simple I could give you a verse and presto you would all be set up. I am deep into God&#8217;s Word to a point; many find me offensive; but deeper you go; that happens.

I am fascinated with how deep and awesome the hiddeness of the mysteries in the Bible. One or two verses will give you nothing but confusion; you could memorize the whole Bible and still miss it; but somewhere; somehow it all came together.

Sure when I was a young child, I was brought up in Sunday school; but what I have found now has little to nothing to do with any religion; including christianity (little c). Jesus Christ; God&#8217;s son is bigger then christianity; most of them are like the Children of Israel they see God&#8217;s acts; not His glory.

Psalm 103:7
He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.
​

Moses faced God faced to face; when Moses came down from the mountain the children of Israel could not even look at Moses face because of God&#8217;s glory.

What I have found is like a treasure chest buried on a desert island and only I can experience its glory. That glory some day will be revealed to all men; but God is not calling all men now; but each in their own order.

To even begin that Journey there is one requirement God places on a person; to believe. To believe in a God who hides Himself from the earthly carnality of man? Let me tell you something God is revealed everywhere in everything just enough to drive men like you who do not know him nuts. You got a small taste; called religion or perhaps just what you have learned.

Prov 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to
search out a matter.
1 Corin 10:11
​

So many of God&#8217;s people see the Word of God has literal and reject anything out side of those religious laws and taboos. The word mystery (means sacred secret) is written 27 times in NT. Most Christians do not even know their the word mysteries is in the Bible. I have been told their are no mysterys by belivers who have been christians for man years.

Hidden manna, mystery, parables, types, shadows; allegories, different languages, when you put all this together; it makes it almost invisible to the carnal eyes of man&#8217;s traditions and understanding and especailly to religion.

 

[Marz Blak]

MarzBlak: Yes, sinful acts are committed on a finite time scale, but so are obedient acts. So if the concept of eternal punishment is illogical, so then is eternal reward.
------------------------------------------------------

So? You started this thread to talk about the fairness of infinite punishment. It may be comparably illogical to provide infinite reward for finite obedience, but I don't see how that has anything to do with your OP.

In other words, irrespective of the logic of it, no one thinks it's *wrong* for someone to be nicer to you than fairness would suggest a person has to be. I've never heard anyone say it's *wrong* to be irrationally nice to people. In fact, being nicer than a strict application of priniciples of fairness would demand one be -- for example, loving one's enemies and turning the other cheek when attacked -- is *exactly* the sort of action considered to by most people to be *good* (and indeed, even *extolled as such in the Bible*), isn't it?

M.

 

[elman]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

I hate the word force as much as the word man has a freewill. We are already dead in trespasses and sin until God’s grace awakens us to his light; we are dead spiritually. Most of this world is in darkness; be it religious; or the majority of God’s people totally outside of God’s camp; but not outside God’s grace.

God is not calling the whole world; he is calling His firstfruit. I live in New York and I watch the corn or apples grow every summer. There is nothing better then that first ear of corn off the stalk; or that first apple right off the tree. No one is leaving out the other ears; or the fleet of trucks caring the apples to market later in the season.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I think those verses say we cannot love perfectly or completely enough to deserve eternal life with God and therefore if we are to see God and be with God it will be through the grace and forgiveness God gives us. When I study those verses beside Matt 25:31 and following I conclude, God does not force anyone to love and it is through love that we are given grace by Jesus. Grace is not promised to the goats, just the sheep. The difference between the goats and the sheep is love. I think we seek God by loving each other. I don't think it is a mental exercise and I don't think we are children of God based on mental accuracy in discerning the character or even the existence of God.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Stinker, when I think of eternal punishment, I remember what our Lord Himself told us. For those men and women, who do not accept God`s Love and Forgiveness, there is a place for them, in outer darkness. A place without God`s Love or Light, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. To land there will truly be eternal JUSTICE, because people choose it themselves, and when they realise they made the wrong choice, there will be loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. Heaven, God`s Kingdom is a place where true, and selfless love for each other rules completely, where God will be worshipped, where Joy and Peace are the Norm. Anybody who expects another Earth, where everything goes, will never be accepted, will cause chaos, where Peace and Joy reign. Only a loving God will have gone to such great lenghts, to spend eternity with His Own. I say this humbly and kindly, Stinker, and send greetings. Emmy, yoir sister in Christ.

 

[elman]

Well your quote about what I said is twisted a bit.

I am saying that I do not believe that spiritually unwashed people can see the Justice of God punishing eternally. The ones that have much more than their fair share of opportunity to be spiritually cleansed, but instead rebuff the attempts of the Holy Spirit, really have no basis for condemning God if they think that they are of this number.

I do not think Jesus wants people to follow Him anyway if they are just following Him for fire insurance.

If love is not possible when one is doing something for someone else only for a reward, then you may have a point. We are not capable however of ever determining that even of ourselves, much less someone else, so it is really a moot point is it not?

 

[Benoni]

I think those verses say we cannot love perfectly or completely enough to deserve eternal life with God and therefore if we are to see God and be with God it will be through the grace and forgiveness God gives us. When I study those verses beside Matt 25:31 and following I conclude, God does not force anyone to love and it is through love that we are given grace by Jesus. Grace is not promised to the goats, just the sheep. The difference between the goats and the sheep is love. I think we seek God by loving each other. I don't think it is a mental exercise and I don't think we are children of God based on mental accuracy in discerning the character or even the existence of God.

Got to look a little closer at these verse. The difference between the goats and sheep is maturity. I know God has no problem loving His sheep; my sheep know my voice. But a goat (Greek) kid or baby goat) why would God love them any different then a mature sheep. A goat has different nature then a sheep; a goat will eat anything where as sheep is very particle what it eats. I used to work on a farm that raised sheep; they always got the best cutting of hay; called the second and third cutting. It was full of tender leaves; not like the first cutting the cows got.

Sheep Separated from Goats

Matthew 25 Wycliffe 32 and all folks shall be gathered before him, and he shall separate them atwain, as a shepherd separateth sheep from kids [and he shall part them atwain, as a shepherd parteth sheep from kids];
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right half, and the kids on the left half [and the kids forsooth on his left half].
34 Then the king shall say to them, that shall be on his right half, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, take ye in possession the kingdom made ready to you from the making of the world [Come ye, the blessed of my Father, wield ye, or take ye in possession, the kingdom made ready to you from the beginning, or making, of the world].

Goat (Strong&#8217;s 2056) eriphos (er'-if-os);perhaps from the same as 2053 (through the idea of hairiness); a kid or (genitive case) goat: \
KJV-- goat, kid.

Question? Why would God burn up a baby goat in everlasting fire. Bad translation.

 

[Marz Blak]

Dear Stinker, when I think of eternal punishment, I remember what our Lord Himself told us. For those men and women, who do not accept God`s Love and Forgiveness, there is a place for them, in outer darkness.

Inherent in this statement is an assertion that anyone who does not accept Christianity as true is making a positive choice to reject God's love, not merely either being ignorant of it or coming to a fairly-reasoned conclusion that it doesn't exist.

This is pretty clearly not true given that (1) throughout history many many people have never even HEARD of the Christian God and (2) among those who have learned of God as conceived of by Christians, and do not believe that such a being exists, at least some of them (and I would argue all of them) do not do so as a matter of choice but because the idea of such a God does not seem reasonable or plausible to them.

(The Catholics actually try to deal with the first part of this with their concept of 'Invincible Ignorance,' but most Protestants (e.g., Rev. Bailey "God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew" Smith) seem to think this is too big of a loophole.)

A place without God`s Love or Light, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. To land there will truly be eternal JUSTICE, because people choose it themselves, and when they realise they made the wrong choice, there will be loud wailing and gnashing of teeth.

But doesn't the fact that they realize they made 'the wrong choice' imply that their choice, even if wrong, was an honest one? I mean, if they KNEW they were making 'the wrong choice' at the time they made it, it would be impossible for them to realize LATER that it HAD been a wrong choice, wouldn't it? And this being the case--that people made a choice that turned out to be 'wrong', but did so, well, in good faith, as it were, doesn't this tend to undercut the arguments about God's response to this choice being just? I mean, it is a well known principle in law that ignorance of the law is no excuse; but it is an equally well-established principle that intention, motive, and understanding of the consequences of one's actions play a sizeable role in judging a person's culpability for an act, isn't it?

Anyway, are you saying, then, that there isn't really an *active* torment of these benighted souls like some sort of Lake of Fire, demons tormenting them etc., but rather what causes them pain is their separation from God and their belated knowledge that they made a big mistake and will have to 'live' with the consequences of that mistake for all eternity?

If so, then this certainly seems like a less, well, mean (for want of a better word) God-concept at first glance. But then, what of repentence, of redemption, supposedly key concepts to Christianity? These souls suffering in their eternal regret sound like prime candidates for redemption, don't they? I mean, what is repentance if not a profound regret for one's bad choices?

Yet supposedly, these souls, even those among them who were kind and good and loving to their fellows, will have to suffer eternally, because they did not realize their mistake while they still lived but only after dying, while people who may have done much worse things in life get a pass to Heaven because at the end, they *believed.*

Ultimately, then, it still comes down to what one *believes*, which seems a rather arbitrary basis upon which to decide such a momentous thing as one's eternal fate, given that their are many factors shaping what people believe which are beyond their control.

(As an aside, a common difference I see among religionists and the non-religious is how they view the matter of the role of volition in belief: in my observations, Christians seem much more likely to believe that people have some latitude in *choosing* what to believe, while non-religious people tend to be much more of the view that people generally believe, well, what seems most believable to them, and don't really have a lot of choice in the matter.)

Heaven, God`s Kingdom is a place where true, and selfless love for each other rules completely, where God will be worshipped, where Joy and Peace are the Norm. Anybody who expects another Earth, where everything goes, will never be accepted, will cause chaos, where Peace and Joy reign.

This seems like a false dichotomy. It is not clear that Heaven either HAS to be as you describe in the first part of this statement OR a place where everything goes and chaos rules.

But aside from that, what does worship of God have to do with 'true selfless love?' You seem to be saying that either people must both have 'true selfless love' for everyone AND worship God to be accepted into Heaven, which makes one wonder why God would consign to everlasting torment many otherwise good people just because they didn't worship Him; or perhaps you are saying that inherent in the character of any truly selfless and loving person is a desire to worship God, which would seem to suggest that non-Christians, atheists, etc., are not capable of being truly selfless and loving. Or maybe something else? In any event, this statement doesn't seem entirely sensible to me.

Only a loving God will have gone to such great lenghts, to spend eternity with His Own. I say this humbly and kindly, Stinker, and send greetings. Emmy, yoir sister in Christ.

If God is omnipotent, then the phrase 'great lengths' isn't really applicable to Him, is it? And if God is the Creator of the universe, then all are His, right?

So given that it all comes down to belief and worship, really, God isn't 'going to great lengths to spend eternity with His Own'; rather, He's putting in a system to infinitely reward those who like or worship (just an extreme form of like, really) Him and to infinitely punish those who don't.

This is how the common Christian concept of a Heaven of eternal bliss and a Hell of eternal torment seems to many non-Christians, myself included; but maybe, as the OP says, we're just spiritually blind.

Regards,

 

[MrSluagh]

Dear Stinker, when I think of eternal punishment, I remember what our Lord Himself told us. For those men and women, who do not accept God`s Love and Forgiveness, there is a place for them, in outer darkness. A place without God`s Love or Light, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. To land there will truly be eternal JUSTICE, because people choose it themselves, and when they realise they made the wrong choice, there will be loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. Heaven, God`s Kingdom is a place where true, and selfless love for each other rules completely, where God will be worshipped, where Joy and Peace are the Norm. Anybody who expects another Earth, where everything goes, will never be accepted, will cause chaos, where Peace and Joy reign. Only a loving God will have gone to such great lenghts, to spend eternity with His Own. I say this humbly and kindly, Stinker, and send greetings. Emmy, yoir sister in Christ.

What of the hundreds of billions of people in the last two thousand years who've died without ever hearing of Jesus? They never had a choice to convert. Where are they?

 

[Stinker]

What of the hundreds of billions of people in the last two thousand years who've died without ever hearing of Jesus? They never had a choice to convert. Where are they?

This is how everyone outside the Law of Moses back then, and everyone today who die without having had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, will be judged:




Romans 2:12-16 (The Message)


12-13If you sin without knowing what you're doing, God takes that into account. But if you sin knowing full well what you're doing, that's a different story entirely. Merely hearing God's law is a waste of your time if you don't do what he commands. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God. 14-16When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences.

 

[Pheehp]

sadly i dont think i'll exist anymore when i die, if im wrong (which clearly i dont think is the case) i'll be in eternal torment. strangely the eternal torment allowing me to exist to experience it is more agreeable than being nothing.

so either im proved right or i exist - win/win ^^

 

[crumbs2000]

This is how everyone outside the Law of Moses back then, and everyone today who die without having had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, will be judged:




Romans 2:12-16 (The Message)


12-13If you sin without knowing what you're doing, God takes that into account. But if you sin knowing full well what you're doing, that's a different story entirely. Merely hearing God's law is a waste of your time if you don't do what he commands. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God. 14-16When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences.

What falls under the category of sin? I mean, perhaps 50% of all christians are deliberately sinning as they continue to commit "adultery" according to biblical definitions by divorcing and remarrying?

This is where the righteous pick out which are sins and which aren't.

Also, Stinker, I am waiting for your reply, you may have already, so forgive me, regarding the question as to how you know you will be in heaven and not suffer any punishment.

Umm, don't you await judgement like the rest of us plebs?

 

[tocis]

God does not change; He is God; but our understanding of God should always be changing. religion does not understand that simple point.

Then your religion doesn't either.
Unless you want to claim, and have some good arguments, that christianity is not a religion. It easily fits every reasonable definition of "religion" that I know, unless you use one so inclusive that literally everything pursued with any serious zeal can be called a religion... even collecting postal stamps.

I am fascinated with how deep and awesome the hiddeness of the mysteries in the Bible. One or two verses will give you nothing but confusion; you could memorize the whole Bible and still miss it; but somewhere; somehow it all came together.

Strange how so many people tell me that... that they some day understood... yet obviously they all understood the same text very differently.
In light of that, what makes you sure that you got it right?

Let me tell you something God is revealed everywhere in everything just enough to drive men like you who do not know him nuts.

Now this borders on impertinence. How do you think you know whether I "know God" or "knew God before"?!
I opened my mind to the Divine... and Odin answered. I don't mind you disagreeing with me about that, as you surely will do... but if you want me to accept your point of view, you better provide some good points supporting your position.

So many of God’s people see the Word of God has literal and reject anything out side of those religious laws and taboos.

As I hinted above, unfortunately there are rarely any two believers who "understand God's word" (or so they claim) and understand it exactly the same way. Makes one wonder, no?

 

[Benoni]

Then your religion doesn't either.
Unless you want to claim, and have some good arguments, that christianity is not a religion. It easily fits every reasonable definition of "religion" that I know, unless you use one so inclusive that literally everything pursued with any serious zeal can be called a religion... even collecting postal stamps.







You are absolutely right that is all christianty has become; a religion; religion restricts God to limited understanding; it has taboos, constrains; and sad and pathetic traditions. God desires us to seek Him, to ask and to find. Because of these very things the Pharisees and Sadducees did; the baptisees and the Catholicsees are still doing. Jesus went totally against the established religion of His day and proclaimed the new wine is better then the old. These religious people of God really love the Lord; but they have restricted God to there understanding with dogmas; creeds and stubbornness; no different then any religion out there.
I am going camping the next five days I will try to get back to more of your questions as soon as possible.
In many ways we are the same; you are seeking truth and that is what Jesus is all about.

Rom 11:32: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[Stinker]

What falls under the category of sin? I mean, perhaps 50% of all christians are deliberately sinning as they continue to commit "adultery" according to biblical definitions by divorcing and remarrying?

This is where the righteous pick out which are sins and which aren't.

Also, Stinker, I am waiting for your reply, you may have already, so forgive me, regarding the question as to how you know you will be in heaven and not suffer any punishment.

Umm, don't you await judgement like the rest of us plebs?

You ask how I know I will be in heaven and not suffer any punishment? I know because I have been born- again. My spirit came into contact with God's Spirit, and it has never been the same since. That is the way conversion works. Conversion is not just obedience to Christ's commands, similarto what the Jews had to do with the Law of Moses. It starts with something very profound, the new birth experience. Without it, a Christian is really nothing more than a New Testament Pharisee.

 

[Cat59]

You know what is strange about this thread?
It sort of misses the whole point of the Christianity I used to believe in.
A Christianity that was about transformation, reconciliation, about being saved, which for me was not a once time event in which the magic words were said and *pouff* there I was saved from hell, but a daily process of walking and living in the way that Jesus had shown and left behind. It was about living the Gospel not to avoid punishment or eternal flames, but to be a servant for my fellows and to give to them the love that I believed God had given to me...

Hung round here too long, I think....

 

[Benoni]

Then your religion doesn't either.
Unless you want to claim, and have some good arguments, that christianity is not a religion. It easily fits every reasonable definition of "religion" that I know, unless you use one so inclusive that literally everything pursued with any serious zeal can be called a religion... even collecting postal stamps.



Strange how so many people tell me that... that they some day understood... yet obviously they all understood the same text very differently.
In light of that, what makes you sure that you got it right?



Now this borders on impertinence. How do you think you know whether I "know God" or "knew God before"?!
I opened my mind to the Divine... and Odin answered. I don't mind you disagreeing with me about that, as you surely will do... but if you want me to accept your point of view, you better provide some good points supporting your position.



As I hinted above, unfortunately there are rarely any two believers who "understand God's word" (or so they claim) and understand it exactly the same way. Makes one wonder, no?

Just on a personal note I lived in German from 1993-1995; you have an awesome counrty. I lived in Nurnberg but worked in Hohenfels 50 miles south. Back Wednesday

 

[crumbs2000]

You ask how I know I will be in heaven and not suffer any punishment? I know because I have been born- again. My spirit came into contact with God's Spirit, and it has never been the same since. That is the way conversion works. Conversion is not just obedience to Christ's commands, similarto what the Jews had to do with the Law of Moses. It starts with something very profound, the new birth experience. Without it, a Christian is really nothing more than a New Testament Pharisee.

I disagree with you there. Just because you become born-again, it doesn't mean an automatic pass into heaven. No one has that right granted to them.

I'm not having a go at you Stinker, i'm just going by what the bible says. Not that I believe what's in the bible is the truth about most things. But that's another can of worms.